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Author Topic: Help with atiflash, porches and general questions  (Read 4255 times)

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Neilalphazeta

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Help with atiflash, porches and general questions
« on: January 18, 2019, 05:41:41 pm »
EDIT: So as shown in my last message in this thread, I'm actually back on an LCD (due to stupidity of having tried to access the bios on one) and unable to switch back the EDID to go back to 15khz safe resolution to switch back to the crt. The setup still recognizes the ATI HD 6450 and only offers to uninstall or exit. So seemingly I need to do something with the VMMaker but not sure what.



I managed to build a mini itx pc for groovymame, installed windows 7, mame, groovymame, and crt emu drivers, and up till then all went fine, the problem I have now is perhaps from having followed a guide several years old:

http://wavebeam.blogspot.com/2016/02/the-groovycube-diy-console-that-plays.html


I really liked the writers clear and simple explanations but it started to break off around the point of using crt emu driver probably because never versions have changed things and the process seemed a bit more streamlined. So anyway I get to the point where crtemu driver installation worked, I ran the osd to select a proper resolution and then i get an image with geoemtry issues.

So I'm running an HD 6450 and it's recognized as such but after going to the osd and changing it to a 15.7khz for plugging to a crt, I plugged it to a crt and I find the geometry to be off (black bar on the left and overscan so missing bits and pieces top, right and bottom). This is with the 640x480 resolution recommended by the guide. Is there any way to correct this? I'm using a Sony crt silver case style I have two one from the FS100 to the FV300 series. Seems to happen everywhere and at other resolutions as well. I would just tweak the tv's geometry to adjust it but I use these for other consoles too.

Has this ever happened to anyone else?

Another issue I seem to have is groovymame doesn't launch properly unless done through the cmd promt, is this because I followed that guide copying and pasting the groovymame files inside the Mame folder? Also was I correct in using the regular plain groovymame or should I have used the d3d9ex one?

Sorry for so many questions, I'm a complete newbie at this, any help would be greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 01:08:04 am by Neilalphazeta »

krick

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Re: Questions regarding groovymame on crt
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2019, 07:43:06 pm »
Make sure you're using the correct version of CRT Emudriver 2.0 from here...
http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=295

Then follow this guide to set it up...
http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=1052#p1052

For Windows 7 you should be using the d3d9ex version of GroovyMAME.  Leave the video setting on "auto".

The GroovyMAME download distribution is a complete MAME package.  Just unzip it and go.  Do not mix it in with standard mame files.
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Neilalphazeta

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Re: Questions regarding groovymame on crt
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2019, 02:00:05 am »
Thank you Krick. I did use the proper driver it appears. Also emudriver does recognize my card the HD 6450 so that was nice. I don't know why I was following that other guide when there's one by Calamity himself here. I do have a few questions that aren't completely clear to me from reading his guide however:

Calamity mentions he intends to use Super Resolutions, so then why use 640x480 in the first place? At what point does one switch to the super resolutions, and also which is most recommended for consumer crt's (2560x???)?

Lastly I read in various places that consumer crt's use NTSC standards or something like that which explains why the overscan and the image being moved to the right, and that this behavior seems to happen in other threads right here with other consumer Sony tv users. However I couldn't find any single solution for fixing this, anyone with a Sony Trinitron have a solution to the geometrical issues other than tweaking the tv itself? I have it with perfect geometry for all my other consoles so I'd like to find a solution that doesn't require accessing the service menu everytime I intend to power up Groovymame if possible.

krick

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Re: Questions regarding groovymame on crt
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2019, 06:20:27 am »
640x480 (interlaced) is for the Windows desktop.

Super resolutions are used when calculating new resolutions on the fly when launching games with GroovyMAME.

What type of monitor are you using?  Brand and model number if possible.

Which monitor preset did you choose when installing CRT Emudriver 2.0?
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Neilalphazeta

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Re: Questions regarding groovymame on crt
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2019, 10:59:12 am »
I selected generic 15khz because I wasn't following Calamity's guide at the time. Right now I'm having difficullties with my vga to component transcoder suddenly so I might have to wait a few days to get back in using some other means but as soon as I do I'll try changing it to arcade 15khz, is there a chance that will center it differently?

The main crt model I am aiming to use it on is a Sony FD Wega KV-20FV300. I only have Sony Wega crt's and the off geometry problem is the same on the others as well, had tested a FV-20FS100 model too.

The image goes off center the exact same way, pushed to the right a couple inches and overscan so I'm missing information on the top, right and bottom, mostly the problem is on the right. I can still see the tabs on the bottom but I can't see tabs on the right of navigational windows for example, and in game the overscan is bearable but image pushed to the right is quite noticeable and bothersome.

I can't find a tutorial that describes the process of changing to super resolutions or at what point to do so. All tutorials I found just recommend using 640x480 15khz and then there's Calamity's guide you linked to above mentioning his intention of later using super resolutions but the guide doesn't seem to carry on to the point where he does change to them.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 11:01:06 am by Neilalphazeta »

krick

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Re: Questions regarding groovymame on crt
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2019, 01:07:04 pm »
In the tutorial link above, look at step 3...

Quote
STEP 3 - SETTING MAME UP

Now I have an usable 15-kHz display, but I don't have a proper mode list yet which I can use for MAME. Back to VMMaker, and click on Edit Settings.

First I'll go to the User modes tab and browse for the "user_modes - super.ini" file. This is because I want to use "super" resolutions.

Then, in the MAME tab, I'm only going to browse to my GroovyMAME folder, but I won't be listing modes from XML by now. What I'll do is to check "Export settings to GroovyMAME", so future monitor settings will be synchronized with VMMaker.

Finally click Ok to exit from the settings dialog.


Note that super resolutions are only used by GroovyMAME.  If your Windows desktop is off-center using the default 640x480 interlaced resolution, then you have another problem.

I'm not really sure what preset you should pick.   You should update your original post to make it clear exactly what hardware you're using...  i.e.  Sony FD Wega KV-20FV300   with   VGA to component transcoder.

Maybe even change the title of your original post to include "Sony FD Wega KV-20FV300" to attract the attention of other users who might have that same monitor.

Also, try searching the GroovyMAME forum for Sony Wega to see if anyone else has worked through the same issue.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 01:09:48 pm by krick »
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Neilalphazeta

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Re: Questions regarding groovymame on crt
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2019, 02:34:04 pm »
Thank you Krick for that advice. I'll first do some research on Groovymame to Wega tv's first and then create a thread titled as per your recommendation.

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Re: Questions regarding groovymame on crt
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2019, 03:40:34 pm »
You probably don't need to create a new thread.  You should be able to edit your original post and change the title.  At least I *think* you can.
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Neilalphazeta

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Re: Questions regarding groovymame on crt
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2019, 04:07:23 pm »
Thank you. I'll try that out.

Meanwhile doing some research i found some other users having the same problem and the only solution brought up is to tweak the service menu which isn't optimal when other devices are in the equation:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,136980.msg1412699.html#msg1412699
(the user of the before last message has the exact same issue with the image shifted to the right)

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=153342.0
One user has the exact same set as one of the ones I have, and by the looks of it this ended unresolved. :(

When i tried to move the H positoning through Mame itself it just slides the image out of visibility but won't slide into the black border to the left which is about 2 inches long. However just now looking on an LCD I see Mame can adjust the width both H and V so technically this should solve overscan is this correct? Although i guess it would require a per game change. I think mame retains this information doesn't it? Is this the best way to get overscan corrected?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 05:46:09 pm by Neilalphazeta »

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Re: Shifted image and overscan with emudrivers on Sony FD Wega KV-20FV300
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2019, 05:08:06 pm »
I found something interesting in this guide for VMMaker and Arcade OSD:

http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=46

Here in section 5.2.2 there's talk about the monitor type options, there's "generic" which I used, and then apparently there's NTSC and PAL options. Maybe had I picked NTSC it might have centered it better. Does this setting still exist (this thread is quite dated) in current builds? Maybe it has been removed, from what I remember there's the arcade setting too but it's not shown there so clearly things have changed.

I wish I could get back into the PC to test it but my vga to component transcoder seems to have died on me which sucks, it's the one from ebay Retrotek I believe. Really disappointing product. Was working fine in groovymame, I powered off the pc mid game with the power botton, I come back later on power back and the picture is a mess with three seperate squished images of the windows desktop with distorted colors.

EDIT: Another thing i see mentioned is modeline. Would this be able to move the entire picture or would it work like mame's in software geometrical changes which basically stay within the restricted image space. My guess it the later so it might be useful for dealing with the overscan but not the shifted image I guess.

http://www.geocities.ws/podernixie/htpc/modeline-en.html
« Last Edit: January 19, 2019, 05:17:47 pm by Neilalphazeta »

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Re: Shifted image and overscan with emudrivers on Sony FD Wega KV-20FV300
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2019, 07:12:17 pm »
I have a similar setup, I played with the internal geometry settings of the TV menu to get things good there.  I used the Arcade 15khz (not extended), and used Super resolutions which helps a lot for centering in general. 

Then once good there, I started playing with ArcadeOSD.  I also had an issue with the screen extending beyond to the right.  I used the 640x480 @ 30hz on the Arcade OSD and adjusted the Horizontal Porch up to a 5ch.  That brought the right side of the screen in.  You can play with the porches to adjust some horizontal width and other size settings to fit the screen.  Once done you can ďsave desktop settingsĒ to have this fix your desktop,  it wonít fix your problems within game because changes you make to ArcadeOSD wonít affect games, itís just a tool to test your limits.  Once you know the numbers (porches etc) that work for your setup you can either edit the mame.ini with those settings, or you can edit the monitor presets in VMM with a custom version using the Arcade 15 as a basis and editing the porch and other timing numbers then generate the modlines and install them.  Be sure to have ďexport to mameĒ checked.  This fixed all of my size setting issues, syncing with lower frequency 55hz games is my current hurdle.

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Re: Shifted image and overscan with emudrivers on Sony FD Wega KV-20FV300
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2019, 01:34:18 am »
Thank you Arroyo!

I think I'm going to get an Extron. Maybe a cleaner signal will readjust the shifting, otherwise I can just use those knobs to shift it back in place, and then work on the overscan the way you did via ArcadeOSD and the .ini.

So adjusting geometry within mame is not recommended? When I saw it had the ability to adjust h and v width it seemed like an ideal solution but I'm guessing it makes undesirable changes to the way the emulation works?

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Re: Shifted image and overscan with emudrivers on Sony FD Wega KV-20FV300
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2019, 04:34:44 am »
Why yes of course using V & H sliders in MAME's menu forcefully applies scaling and therefore ruins the purpose of playing at the original resolutions, and that's only one of the issues, I think you'll also see ugly artifacts and maybe you'll break sync too I dunno.

This is why cabs equipped with easily accessible deported basic geometry control pots are the best.
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Re: Shifted image and overscan with emudrivers on Sony FD Wega KV-20FV300
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2019, 07:44:42 am »
Thank you Arroyo!

I think I'm going to get an Extron. Maybe a cleaner signal will readjust the shifting,

I have the same Retrotek that you do and donít have those problems.  Are you sure the issue is originating from there? 

How will you incorporate the Extron with the Retrotek, isnít the Extron just a H Sync and V sync combiner?  I donít think making adjustments at the level is what you want, but Iíve never played with that.  You should be able to achieve what you want without that.

Quote
So adjusting geometry within mame is not recommended? When I saw it had the ability to adjust h and v width it seemed like an ideal solution but I'm guessing it makes undesirable changes to the way the emulation works?

Calamity has commented on this on other posts, and as stated above you donít want to do that as it will distort and scale, which kills the point of the resolution switching that GroovyMame does.

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Re: Shifted image and overscan with emudrivers on Sony FD Wega KV-20FV300
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2019, 10:50:01 am »
Thank you to both of you. So I'll forget about mame in settings geometry options.

Yes I believe the issue is with the Retrotek but I can't be 100% sure. Below is a picture of what I get when booting up Windows now and here's what occurred prior to this happening.

I installed emudrivers and the process was smooth and impeccable (it even recognized my card properly as an HD 6450), I went through VMM Maker selected proper setttings as per the guide I was using (at some point I had to restart to proceed) then I went on to Arcade OSD and chose a very low resolution at 15khz, screen went black and according to the guide this was when I had to switch to the Retrotek transcoder and crt, so I went ahead. Image on the crt worked so I changed it to 640x480 15khz and saved to desktop. The image was fine although there was insane flicker and noticeable overscan (and the entire picture shifted to the right as I mentionned before).

Then went into command prompt as admin to launch a game to test (I picked Alex Kidd) and it booted just fine. Game looked gorgeous and was running in a very stable way, only issue was the shifted image and overscan which I thought I could correct later. Suddenly something came up and I had to rush out so I just powered down the PC with the front power botton while groovymame was still running the Alex Kidd demo. When I came back later I unplugged everything from the crt and back to the LCD to access the bios and enable fast boot. I proceeded to connect it back to the crt and then I was met with a broken image as shown below.

I tried the PC back to the LCD and removed fast boot thinking that had caused this but when I went back it made no difference. Also the PC itself seems fine cause the bios loads and detects all the components, the VGA cable is working as well. I tried the component cable and the port on the crt and both are absolutely fine as well. So I went on to try the Retrotek transcoder and pc on the LCD HDTV through the same component cables and could not get the bios screen to show up (if I'm not mistaken it should correct?). The LCD HDTV knows a signal is going through as it blanks out, but nothing shows up, not even the asrock bios.

EDIT: I remembered something else thanks to Arroyo in the thread about atom-15. I actually tried to use atom-15 with winflash before I tested a game, and the operation seemingly failed because it gave me a message saying it needed to be in 800x600 resolution or larger (I was in 640x480), but I wonder if that operation may have caused some problem with the gpu. Still I find it odd that the transcoder wouldn't at least load the bios on the lcd sony 4k hdtv, wouldn't it normally work?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 11:07:47 am by Neilalphazeta »

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Re: Shifted image and overscan with emudrivers on Sony FD Wega KV-20FV300
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2019, 12:35:05 pm »
Couple of things.

So just making sure you know not to turn your TV on when rebooting until it gets to the Windows login page.  This is because until you get to that point the Bios and Windows booting screen will output a signal above 15khz, Atom-15 solves this problem once you get it up and running.

The picture you showed at the bottom of your post looks like what I would get when I had a signal that was above 15khz.  To rectify this, what works for me is to plug in your LCD, and under VMM where you selected Disable EDID emulation, I would re-enable it (make sure your CRT is turned off).  Wait until the video modes are reset, and then click again to disable EDID emulation.  Once that video mode resets turn your TV back on.  This my not be the ideal fix but it works for me when I get a screen like the one you are showing.

So it wasnít clear to me are you able to get a picture at all on your LCD?

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Re: Shifted image and overscan with emudrivers on Sony FD Wega KV-20FV300
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2019, 12:43:12 pm »
Without the transcoder and going straight from VGA yes I'm able to get an image on the lcd pc monitor (I can't test on the HDTV since there is no VGA in). To summarize:

If I try on the lcd pc monitor going straight from the PC > VGA > LCD I do get a picture but only the asrock bios, so I can press F2 to access settings and I can still see all the components are identified, however once I exit I end up on a black screen and the monitor gives me a message that there is an incompatible image and to try something in 31khz (presumably because I had changed the resolution to 640x480i 15khz).

If I try on my wega crt I go PC > VGA > Retrotek transcoder > Component > CRT (i wait a few seconds to turn on crt to skip the boot part), then I end up on the picture I showed you above with three window screens and messy colors.

If I try on my Sony 4k hdtv going: PC > VGA > Retrotek transcoder > Component > HDTV, then I get no signal at all, not even the bios screen, which is what makes me suspect that the problem is the retrotek, but of course I still couldn't say 100% since I'm not sure the HDTV is even compatible with this device as I hadn't tried it before.

I have no way of changing anything on the pc unless I attempt to reinstall windows from scratch, which I'm not opposed to assuming this seems more likely to be due to some glitchy gpu settings than a hardware issue with the transcoder.

By the way yes I made that mistake the first time by switching back to 31khz modes while the crt was still on but the image I got was not like the one pictured above but more like a messy picture fuzzy and moving all around, I had that for about 2 or 3 seconds until I realized to immediately turn off the tv. I think these late Sony's have some protective measures against this so no harm seems to have come of it from that short period, but I wouldn't test it again. All connections still work great, the PC was working fine at this point as well. Currently if I plug in the PS2 in the same component port it works great same as before so it's not a problem with the tv either.

I think there are only two possibilities, the gpu (perhaps something glitchy with the settings) or the Retrotek transcoder. I lean transcoder due to the aforementioned not showing the bios on an lcd test. I also have this recollection of the retrotek getting unplugged when a signal was going to it at some point because I was stretching the cables out to reach between the pc monitor and the crt since they were far apart, not sure if that could have damaged it or not. I suppose since it's hand made it might be possible it doesn't have protection against that kind of malfunction and maybe it damaged it.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 01:04:09 pm by Neilalphazeta »

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Re: Shifted image and overscan with emudrivers on Sony FD Wega KV-20FV300
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2019, 04:48:32 pm »
Have you tried using a digital output to the LCDís?  Meaning a HDMI, DisplayPort, DVI-D while keeping your VGA into your Retrotek?  This should invoke a second monitor and should give you a signal to the LCD.  From there you can make your LCD your primary display by right clicking the desktop and choosing screen resolution.  Change it to the LCD and then you can mess with settings like I described above.

I think youíre not getting any signal because your VGA is outputting a 15 kHz signal which your LCDs wonít display.

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Re: Shifted image and overscan with emudrivers on Sony FD Wega KV-20FV300
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2019, 05:17:01 pm »
Thank you for that info, actually I started the process of reinstalling windows and doing everything from scratch, I'm halfway there now so I'll soon be able to confirm for sure whether the transcoder is malfunctioning or whether it was just a corruption of the gpu driver or something like that (possibly either by having attempted to use winflash and failed or by powering off mid game by pressing the power botton).

I hadn't thought about that way of going around it (connecting through dvi as a second monitor). I'll keep it in mind for next time.

I'll be reporting back soon.

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Re: Shifted image and overscan with emudrivers on Sony FD Wega KV-20FV300
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2019, 12:49:59 am »
So turns out the transcoder is fine. I was able to reboot and install everything properly. But then I went back to the LCD to enable quick boot which is recommended in one guide, and then it broke the picture again exactly like last time (so I disabled it, not touching that again... and presumably that's what caused this mess in the first place, so I guess asrock's z170m fast boot should not be enabled for groovymame pc's).

So I got back in the way you recommended and recovered the picture on the LCD. I switched back to the vga for the lcd and now I seem to be unable to get the picture back to 15khz for the crt because when I got back to VMMaker and go to "video card" tab in the "device" section it just says "no monitor enabled" and below in driver "no compatible driver" also I can no longer change the EDID emulation setting like I did the first time to put output 0 as per Calamity's guide. The only thing I can do as per the guide is to remove "Extend desktop automatically on device restart", but that's about it.

When I go to the setup.exe it recognizes the compatible device AMD Radeon HD 6450 (CRT Emudriver), and I can uninstall it or exit the setup.

So I'm sort of stuck here until someone advises me on how I can get the image back to 15khz for the crt.  :'(
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 12:57:57 am by Neilalphazeta »

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Re: Help getting back into a 15khz safe setting for crt
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2019, 03:39:30 am »
Hi Neilalphazeta,

First of all, don't get frustrated. It's almost sure one will run into issues when setting a system for 15 kHz, it doesn't matter how many guides you read because there'll be one random step at some point that will leave you in an uncharted scenario. I find myself in these situations all the time, but experience finally allows you to go through them. It doesn't help when there are a stack on devices in the equation which you're not sure that work properly in the first place.

Now, if the driver's Setup allows you uninstall, do it. Then reinstall the driver again. Make sure "Test Mode" is applied again.

If I where using an HD 6450 plus a supporting LCD like you, the easiest way to set this up would be to have the CRT plugged through VGA and the LCD plugged through the DVI-D. This way you don't need to do any cable switching during the process, and it'll be just a matter of unplugging the LCD once you're happy with the configuration.



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Re: Help getting back into a 15khz safe setting for crt
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2019, 04:30:28 am »
The thing with transcoders is they all have their own quirks, for instance your shifted picture issue might be fixable by turning a potentiometer located on the transcoder's circuit board, I had that issue with an Audio Authority 9A60, and realized later that most transcoders have this same potentiometer, you have to open the case and check/try.

Then there's the not-always-documented details you will know about, like bandwidth limitations, or whatever design oddity. The Retrotek IIRC is a semi-amateur device that received more than one revision and got mixed reviews.
Sometimes these devices are better since they're tailored for retro hardware users, but sometimes they're also more biased and possibly flawed designs.

Also I don't think you need to reinstall W7 several times.
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Re: Help getting back into a 15khz safe setting for crt
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2019, 04:59:29 am »
I've gone through the thread and noticed that the original issue was the picture was shifted to the right. I'm amazed that the obvious, immediate software solution hasn't come up yet: just tweak horizontal porch values in a custom crt_range so all modes get centered without any further hardware adjustment. That's what VMMaker/GroovyMAME is all about.
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Re: Help getting back into a 15khz safe setting for crt
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2019, 05:07:24 am »
Sorry to insist but I still wouldn't skip the potentiometer thing either if I were him, I've actually witnessed the same isue many times, all the VGA>Component transcoder users I've talked with had to dial it at some point to adjust the position and improve statibilty of the signal, no way around it I'd say 8/10 times because it's basically luck when a transcoder is adjusted right on the first use.

EDIT; not sure his Retrotek has this pot though, which I find worrisome. But not every device is the same of course.
EDIT2; I can't find a manual or whatever anywhere, just photos of the pcb which seems to completely lack manual adjustments, which means it relies entirely on its design...call me paranoid but with analogue devices I tend to trust manual adjustments over anything that would be entirely automatic/fixed.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 05:44:01 am by schmerzkaufen »
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Re: Help getting back into a 15khz safe setting for crt
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2019, 02:27:32 pm »
Thank you very much to both of you.

Thank you Calamity for the kind words of encouragement. It really is a daunting task but it's also been very educational along the way so despite the frustrations and stressful moments I am still very happy I have undertaken the project of setting up a groovymame pc.

One of the biggest challenges I have had is following various guides that at times contradict each other or advise different approaches to different matters. Perhaps because of updates and changes to Groovymame or Mame itself, some steps in some guides either became redundant or at times appear to actually break functionality. For example in Recap's guide on the geedorah forums the guide advises to enter  "d3d9ex" in the "video" section of the mame.ini, but doing so broke functionality and command prompt could not even launch games (so I had to return to "auto"). Some guides recommend putting frame delay in others (including your own) to leave it as it is when using the d3d9ex version (which is what I'm doing). Most guides still recommend installing Mame first and then Groovymame into it, apparently another redundancy. It's all quite challenging to keep track of but it feels quite rewarding when I proceed to the next step and things are working correctly.

Thank you to Schmerzkaufen for the tips on the transcoder, I really appreciate it. I will look into getting an audio authority transcoder down the line as it seems to be one of the preferred transcoders, and at that time I will read up on tweaking the potentiometer.

My next two steps are to get attract mode running which currently seems to open to a black screen with horizontal lines flying around requiring me to plug back the lcd in order to get an image (and the second I close it I'm back to an incompatible mode requiring the crt), I think this might be because I set up Attract mode while still on the lcd originally (was actually recommended I do so in some guides), so I've tried asking for help on the Attract Mode forums. I'm thinking this might be a resolution problem.

Secondly once I can confirm that I have a front end functioning properly I'm going to attempt an ATOM-15 install using Calamity's guide (using a dos boot key), this will make me feel more at ease on the crt.

The next step after that will be learning to work with the porches in VMMaker then individual game or system configurations it looks like. I will have to search for a good guide on this up next.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 02:29:14 pm by Neilalphazeta »

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Re: Help getting back into a 15khz safe setting for crt
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2019, 02:43:50 pm »
About the transcoder; don't get me wrong I'm only speculating this could be your problem with the Retrotek. I'm just giving an example of how it usually goes with RGB/VGA>Component transoders as I've know them, many feature a poti on the pcb you dial to move the picture horizontally and that's about it, the AA is a famous one and when I was using it that poti was absolutely essential, but I haven't personally used it for a Groovy setup (some did though if you google it), not sure how these devices like super resolutions also.
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Re: Help getting back into a 15khz safe setting for crt
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2019, 03:49:09 pm »
For example in Recap's guide on the geedorah forums the guide advises to enter  "d3d9ex" in the "video" section of the mame.ini, but doing so broke functionality and command prompt could not even launch games (so I had to return to "auto").

First post in the guide:

Quote
(*) Read this post in order to know the major changes from 0.170 to 0.182 version. We recommend to have Groovy MAME updated as much as possible since it's improving with every Switchres version.

And then:

Quote
- Direct 3-D 9 Ex compatibility is only available in a separate build downloadable as groovymame64_0182.016_final_d3dex.7z, and with it, you must now type video d3d instead of video d3d9ex for usage of this API's Ex version, which is still the recommended one (unless you're on WIN XP).


But yep; the guide is old and not too straightforward for the current version. I'm sure there are better ones out there at this point. Anyway, the geometry part ("F") still fills the bill -- unless you need to accomodate the picture also for other devices, solve the horizontal shift by modifying the monitor specs preset instead of making hardware tweaks.




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Re: Help getting back into a 15khz safe setting for crt
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2019, 04:27:55 pm »
Sorry, didn't mean to blame you for my errors, I clearly should have read more carefully would have saved time. I move from one thing to another too rapidly and in doing so I ommit important parts like that one.

Thanks, I'll pay close attention to the geometry guide and try to move the image to the left and shrink it down to compensate for the overscan.

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Re: Help getting back into a 15khz safe setting for crt
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2019, 06:11:36 pm »
EDIT, I figured it out, I was missing the bios file. Sorry about that. XD

I found sites to get the bios files of my card but there appear to be 7 different ones. How can I find the number of the card, since I'm running emudrivers I don't have access to the ATI info tab, is there some other way of getting the number such as on the board itself somewhere?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 06:38:18 pm by Neilalphazeta »

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Re: Help using ATIFLASh for dos
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2019, 11:32:07 pm »
EDIT, I figured it out, I was missing the bios file. Sorry about that. XD

I found sites to get the bios files of my card but there appear to be 7 different ones. How can I find the number of the card, since I'm running emudrivers I don't have access to the ATI info tab, is there some other way of getting the number such as on the board itself somewhere?

To lazy to quote all the previous stuff, but Iíve got the same Retrotek and it works very well.  No it does not have pots for adjusting screen position or geometry.  If itís doing its job itís only supposed to convert the color space, nothing else.  Therefore it assumes you are handling geometry at the source or your TV.  As was mentioned using the ďfront porchĒ in the horizontal section is a good place to start.

Regarding your post above, you shouldnít need to look for your bios files, you have to extract them from your card using either ATIflash or ATIwinflash.  Once you have extracted them you use the Atom-15 to patch that bios and then you upload or ďflashĒ them to your card using the same ATIflash or ATIwinflash.  I was suggesting to use ATIflash and the MS-DOS method because as Calamity pointed out in his install thread going that route allows you to test compatibility with the modified bios before installing which could prevent potentially bricking the card.

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Re: Help using ATIFLASh for dos
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2019, 01:04:32 am »
EDIT: Okay I figured out the problem, the atiflash exe had too many characters, apparently dos needs the names to be short. I shortened the name and it worked. I extracted the bios and am working on it in dos.  :)
EDIT2: Atom-15 was a success. So now I am full time on the CRT. I can't disable testsigning right? In the last few days signing out of it has locked me out of the crt (or at least the picture was a bit messed up on it) forcing me back to the lcd. Now that I've flashed it I'm assuming I shouldn't even try right?

I don't mind being in test signing but I wonder if that is what's causing Attract Mode to not run on the PC. Whenever I open Attract Mode up even from a fresh install in a differently named folder it just opens up with horizontal (slightly angled diagonally) white lines flying around on a black background. I'm guessing it's not actually sending 31khz anymore since I've used Atom but still feels weird to see. I've tried asking people at the Attract Mode forums and they're not sure why this is happening either.

Other than that I have tried changing the porches in the monitor.ini file by following the example of changing the arcade 15khz numbers to:
15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576 (original Arcade 15.7 kHz preset)

15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 6.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576 (edited Arcade 15.7 kHz preset)

Basically changing 8000 to 6000, then I saved, I opened VMMmaker and clicked edit and okay and it made no difference. Is there some other step required to register that change?

EDIT: Also changed the title of the thread one last time just to reflect the kind of information contained within, apologies for the multiple changes along the way.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 02:40:04 am by Neilalphazeta »

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Re: Help using ATIFLASh for dos
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2019, 03:28:15 am »
Iíve got the same Retrotek and it works very well.  No it does not have pots for adjusting screen position or geometry.  If itís doing its job itís only supposed to convert the color space, nothing else.  Therefore it assumes you are handling geometry at the source or your TV.
You over-interpret what I said, it's not "geometry", just H-pos, like most VGA>Component transcoders feature, yes, it's common and necessary to position the picture and adjust signal stability. The Retrotek's difference is that it assumes it doesn't need that adjustment, I don't know why, it's a more modern and semi-amateur design, but it's not like the others. There aren't tons of vga>compo transcoders, most are rather old and known, again I've seen enough people experience this same issue with exactly that family of transcoders to know better than to assume there's no issue with the Retrotek just because some people will say 'I have no problem with it'.

Anyway if he can deal with it differently by editing that's fine, because those old vga>comp transcoders aren't easily found.
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Re: Help with atiflash, porches and general questions
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2019, 04:53:11 am »
Editing the text file doesn't automatically change the modes, once you edit the porches you need to generate and install the modes again in VMMaker. Also, you have to copy the modified crt_range into mame.ini. You can use the option "export settings to GroovyMAME" in VMMaker's MAME tab to do that automatically.
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Re: Help with atiflash, porches and general questions
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2019, 11:07:22 am »
So I got Attract Mode running. The secret was found in an old thread where you helped someone else out by recommending they stop AMD external services and enable the display settings "hide modes that is monitor cannot display". :)

Now I'm down to the geometry tweaking part, and unfortunately that didn't work. I went into VMMaker, went into edit, edited the text file, "ok", then I clicked on "generate modes" and once that was over "install modes" but it made no difference.

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Re: Help with atiflash, porches and general questions
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2019, 11:16:27 am »
Now I'm down to the geometry tweaking part, and unfortunately that didn't work. I went into VMMaker, went into edit, edited the text file, "ok", then I clicked on "generate modes" and once that was over "install modes" but it made no difference.

It does work. Now, if you want to shift the picture, you need to compensate both porches, e.g. if you substract 2.0 to back porch you have to add 2.0 to the other porch, etc. Otherwise what you do is to change the visible area size.

Best way to do this is dinamically by means of Arcade OSD. Once you find the right values in Arcade OSD you use them in VMMaker/GM. Always testing any mode that's NOT currently used by the desktop.
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Re: Help with atiflash, porches and general questions
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2019, 11:30:02 am »
Thank you. I hadn't understood that. So by changing 8000 to 6000 all I did was create more space to the left to work with, am I understanding this correctly?

Is there a guide somewhere that I could use to educate myself on what each value stands for or do I just play around test and error to see what happens in Arcade OSD? I mostly just need to move the image to the left and then shrink both H and V to compensate for the overscan so those are the values I will be looking for.

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Re: Help using ATIFLASh for dos
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2019, 11:47:58 am »
EDIT2: Atom-15 was a success. So now I am full time on the CRT. I can't disable testsigning right? In the last few days signing out of it has locked me out of the crt (or at least the picture was a bit messed up on it) forcing me back to the lcd. Now that I've flashed it I'm assuming I shouldn't even try right?
Correct, you need to leave it in test signing mode for the Calmityís drivers to work.
Quote
I'm guessing it's not actually sending 31khz anymore since I've used Atom but still feels weird to see.
Just in case itís not clear Atom-15 installation is just for the time between when your PC boots until your login screen on Windows.  Once you are to the Windows sign on screen Clamityís drivers are now being used.  Atom-15 changes your firmware on your ATI card to output a lower res signal during bios and bootup only.  You are still free to use your LCD with any digital port you have.
Quote
Other than that I have tried changing the porches in the monitor.ini file by following the example of changing the arcade 15khz numbers to:
15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576 (original Arcade 15.7 kHz preset)
15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 6.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576 (edited Arcade 15.7 kHz preset)
As Calamity noted above you donít want to try to guess on making these changes.  Iím still learning this myself, but Launch ArcadeOSD from here you can pick one of your resolutions, then go into Horizontal Geometry and select ďH Front porchĒ move the value left or right hit enter and you should see the picture either shrinking or expanding.  I didnít know it but as Calamity just stated thatís shrinking or expanding the picture, to shift it you would need to then move the back porch as well to offset your front porch changes.
Now what I havenít been able to play with yet cause Iím down at the moment is what resolutions you should be using when making these edits, sounds like not using the desktop mode, but itís not clear to me if I should only be using 640x480 or each resolution.  I also donít yet know if I should be messing with the dotclock or just making porch changes to test the vertical refresh limit of the monitor.  I hope to test these more once Iím back up and running, or maybe someone else can comment on this.
Quote
EDIT: Also changed the title of the thread one last time just to reflect the kind of information contained within, apologies for the multiple changes along the way.
Personally I find it hard to follow threads when the title changes.


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Re: Help with atiflash, porches and general questions
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2019, 11:55:50 am »
Is there a guide somewhere that I could use to educate myself on what each value stands for or do I just play around test and error to see what happens in Arcade OSD? I mostly just need to move the image to the left and then shrink both H and V to compensate for the overscan so those are the values I will be looking for.

You can also use the H center option in Arcade OSD, which basically does what it says, and once it's centered, increase both porches slightly till you get the right size.

As for the V part, I have bad news for you, it's not possible to fix overscan that way, only a hardware adjustment can do that.
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 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

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Re: Help with atiflash, porches and general questions
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2019, 12:07:17 pm »
Alright, so no V overscan adjustments then. Thanks to both of you. I will try that it out.

By the way on a side note, when I boot the pc the crt sees the windows boot screen and then for a few seconds gets this horrible image of horizontal lines flying around and a buzzing sound for a couple of seconds, and then windows opens normally. Is this part of the process with atom-15? I hope I'm not sending dangerous frequencies to the crt still.

Arroyo> Yes I apologize for having changed it so much. It's become more of a general thread of questions at this point so I won't touch the title line again.

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Re: Help with atiflash, porches and general questions
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2019, 12:22:53 pm »
So I was able to do this in all resolutions (I'm using super resolutions) I could view (the low 50's ones I get a rolling screen so I didn't bother with them).

It looks like it's possible to alter the V adjustments but I'm assuming these won't have an effect in mame is this correct? Can I still move the image itself vertically if I keep them in even settings to move the picture up slightly?

So now that I've made those changes can I carry them into Mame and if so what files should I edit and which values should I bring over?
EDIT: Looks like they carried over. Maybe because of the setting "export to Mame" which I setup following Calamity's VMMaker guide. :)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 12:35:52 pm by Neilalphazeta »