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Author Topic: Advice for Monitor?  (Read 419 times)

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drun

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Advice for Monitor?
« on: December 22, 2018, 09:59:26 am »
I picked up an arcade cabinet that originally housed a 39" NeoTec monitor.  I plan to install a mame variant with a front end.  From what I have read the original monitor weighed about 140 lbs and are not available without significant efforts. 

It was converted to a 32" LCD widescreenhttps://www.insigniaproducts.com/pdp/NS-32E440A13/4758343 with a mounting bracket.  The screen has no red color.  I may be able to fix it, but I don't know that it is worth the effort.

One question is if the cabinet made to hold a 140 lb monitor can handle the weight of a 180 lb+ tube tv?

I have looked there are a few free to very cheap to free sony wega hd crt tvs with hdmi inputs in my area?  Does anyone know if these tvs will work at varied frequencies via hdmi? via component?

The other alternative is just replace the one that is in there with the monoprice free sync monitor $180 https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=34712&gclid=CjwKCAiA3vfgBRB9EiwAkfpd3N3U-XzKqtRurl3O7YX_hIezxQPWF2V6B9rTA0K4XdplyaBHZ4ohABoCGqAQAvD_BwE

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Advice for Monitor?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2018, 11:28:06 am »
Old or new 32" LCD TVs working with variable refresh: nope, never heard of one.
Only some of the latest Samsung sets and a small series of nVidia gaming 'TV-monitors' support FreeSycn or G-Sync, all too big and expensive.

The monoprice monitor has sick specs for the price though, if your PC has an AMD card compatible with FreeSync you'll enjoy MAME with variable refresh rate (likely on the DP input)
GroovyMAME LCD user: W7, vx3211-mh, i5-4690k @4.1GHz, R7 260x

drun

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Re: Advice for Monitor?
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2018, 12:49:14 pm »
Old or new 32" LCD TVs working with variable refresh: nope, never heard of one.
Only some of the latest Samsung sets and a small series of nVidia gaming 'TV-monitors' support FreeSycn or G-Sync, all too big and expensive.

The monoprice monitor has sick specs for the price though, if your PC has an AMD card compatible with FreeSync you'll enjoy MAME with variable refresh rate (likely on the DP input)

Sorry, the Sonys are HD CRT monitors

https://www.cnet.com/products/sony-kv-36hs420-wega-36-crt-tv/specs/
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-WQhUpSKATan/p_158KV34HS4/Sony-KV-34HS420.html



schmerzkaufen

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Re: Advice for Monitor?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2018, 01:02:51 pm »
Yeah I've mixed it up with the question about varible refresh and considered the question also for LCD TVs too.

Regarding those late Sonys, I don't know what to think, I've read bad things about forced conversion to interlaced output and lag up to 3 frames.
It's possible only 480p source will look fine.
Variable rates might not pause a problem though (not 100% sure)
Personally considering their considerable weight, huge bezels/casing, limited ability to display true low resolutions, and notoriously difficult to service nature I wouldn't consider one.

BTW what sort of cabinet is it?
GroovyMAME LCD user: W7, vx3211-mh, i5-4690k @4.1GHz, R7 260x

drun

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Re: Advice for Monitor?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2018, 11:09:41 pm »
Yeah I've mixed it up with the question about varible refresh and considered the question also for LCD TVs too.

Regarding those late Sonys, I don't know what to think, I've read bad things about forced conversion to interlaced output and lag up to 3 frames.
It's possible only 480p source will look fine.
Variable rates might not pause a problem though (not 100% sure)
Personally considering their considerable weight, huge bezels/casing, limited ability to display true low resolutions, and notoriously difficult to service nature I wouldn't consider one.

BTW what sort of cabinet is it?

It's an Arctic Thunder cabinet.  I got most of the original components back and working which I originally thought wouldn't have been possible.  The throttle is a bit overactive, I think the pot needs to be replaced. The system inside is an 18 year old PC running windows 2000.  The software is hardware locked to particular video cards, motherboard, etc.   

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Advice for Monitor?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2018, 06:15:40 am »
Midway Quicksilver ? doesn't it output video in D-sub 15 (VGA) ?

If so and you picked one of the Sonys you'd have to use a transcoder to component or VGA>HDMI converter, and your MAME configured to output a fixed 480p.

The Monoprice monitor lacks a VGA input so the converter scenario applies here too (to the HDMI or DVI input) and no way you're taking advantage of the FreeSync ability with that Midway custom PC.

I'd pick a 32" monitor featuring VGA input, with a Full-HD (1920x1080) or WQHD (2560x1440) panel.
Although not guaranteed I think the VGA inputs are usually more tolerant than HDMI with varied off-60Hz refreshes, whether it's at the panel's native resolution or with lower (upscaled) ones like 480p.

There are still some 32"~43" TV sets around featuring VGA and component inputs, just I would avoid the ones with a 720p panel (1366x768 aka HD-Ready) since that's too low a resolution for several emulation-genrated effects like simulated/fake scanlines or in-line scanlines generators like the SLG3000, if that matters.
But TVs overall have typically slower pixel response (due to lacking pixel response overdrive controls) and often more input lag than monitors.

Whether it's a monitor or TV, your choice of the type of LCD panel then, typically;
VA panels have a bit narrower viewing angles, good contrast (3000:1 or better) and deep blacks but will in places show noticeable pixel ghosting/trails.
IPS panels have wider viewing angles, poorer contrast (1000:1) and blacks, but snappier or at the very least more consistent pixel response.
All flat flat panels come with more or less reflective coating (either glossy/glass type, or anti-glare) which can be important depending on the room's lighting.

Anything 4K I would avoid.

These are just my 2c though, this is what I would go for. Now of course no flat panel compares to a CRT in terms of response and 'realism'.
GroovyMAME LCD user: W7, vx3211-mh, i5-4690k @4.1GHz, R7 260x

drun

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Re: Advice for Monitor?
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2018, 10:48:45 am »
Midway Quicksilver ? doesn't it output video in D-sub 15 (VGA) ?

If so and you picked one of the Sonys you'd have to use a transcoder to component or VGA>HDMI converter, and your MAME configured to output a fixed 480p.

The Monoprice monitor lacks a VGA input so the converter scenario applies here too (to the HDMI or DVI input) and no way you're taking advantage of the FreeSync ability with that Midway custom PC.

I'd pick a 32" monitor featuring VGA input, with a Full-HD (1920x1080) or WQHD (2560x1440) panel.
Although not guaranteed I think the VGA inputs are usually more tolerant than HDMI with varied off-60Hz refreshes, whether it's at the panel's native resolution or with lower (upscaled) ones like 480p.

There are still some 32"~43" TV sets around featuring VGA and component inputs, just I would avoid the ones with a 720p panel (1366x768 aka HD-Ready) since that's too low a resolution for several emulation-genrated effects like simulated/fake scanlines or in-line scanlines generators like the SLG3000, if that matters.
But TVs overall have typically slower pixel response (due to lacking pixel response overdrive controls) and often more input lag than monitors.

Whether it's a monitor or TV, your choice of the type of LCD panel then, typically;
VA panels have a bit narrower viewing angles, good contrast (3000:1 or better) and deep blacks but will in places show noticeable pixel ghosting/trails.
IPS panels have wider viewing angles, poorer contrast (1000:1) and blacks, but snappier or at the very least more consistent pixel response.
All flat flat panels come with more or less reflective coating (either glossy/glass type, or anti-glare) which can be important depending on the room's lighting.

Anything 4K I would avoid.

These are just my 2c though, this is what I would go for. Now of course no flat panel compares to a CRT in terms of response and 'realism'.

Right, there are tradeoffs either way.

The sony crt would likely have to use a VGA to component transcoder to keep from going digital analog digital from the original board.  I am not sure how mame would output to the set.  I assume you are saying I would have to output mame as 480p fixed as it would upscale anything lower than 480p?  Is the output of that upscale worse than a LCD?

The freesync I would have to use a VGA -> HDMI converter for the original hardware, but gain freesync for mame. I am not seeing any 32" freesync monitors with a vga input though?

New LCD TVs have done away with VGA and component inputs also.
The other issue I have is the physical constraints of the cabinet though large the maximum theoretical widescreen I can fit is 37".  They don't seem to make anything in between 32" and 37" for a flat panel.  I found a 37" used, they seem to have stopped manufacturing these as well, but I am not 100% sure I can make it fit by removing the bezel without buying it and then I can't return it.  The maximum size of CRT is likely 36" for a television, but 32-34 would be much easier to deal with based on weight.

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Advice for Monitor?
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2018, 12:01:41 pm »
The sony crt would likely have to use a VGA to component transcoder to keep from going digital analog digital from the original board.  I am not sure how mame would output to the set.  I assume you are saying I would have to output mame as 480p fixed as it would upscale anything lower than 480p?  Is the output of that upscale worse than a LCD?
I haven't experienced MAME through a RGB(VGA)>Component transcoder myself, I suppose a pure transcoder wouldn't mind any resolution at whatever refresh rate, but yes the issue here would indeed be the Sony's forced conversion of anything below 480p to 480i. My experience of that sort of forced interlacing at least is that it looks ugly on a CRT no matter what.
So if you have something like a MAME set up to output real arcade low resolutions it won't look good, and if you set it up to output a fixed 480p instead with everything scaled to that you will have a choice of unfiltered, which might show ugly scaling artifacts/shimmering, or filtered which will defeat the true low res look (you can sharpen the bilinear using prescale 2 but I can only speculate about the resulting looks)

Over a flat panel MAME does fine with the same scaling options and it offers more filters beyond bilinear but that Voodoo card might not be able to pull out CRT shaders and similar refinements (fake scanlines whether from within MAME or using an SLG3000 as I've mentioned are other options) but it won't look anything like a real low res CRT either.

The freesync I would have to use a VGA -> HDMI converter for the original hardware, but gain freesync for mame. I am not seeing any 32" freesync monitors with a vga input though?
Nope forget about FreeSync with that PC no matter what, FreeSync requires both a compatible branded card and monitor, and in most cases it works only either straight via DisplayPort or HDMI on a select number of displays.
If you're worried about support for all kinds of refreshes and resolutions, try the Viewsonic VX3276-mhd, it's a monitor known to be quite liberal despite not being FreeSync nor G-Sync compatible. It's a quality IPS monitor but like most IPS displays it can come with a degree of backlight bleed (brighter 'stains' of light visible on dark backgrounds caused by loose backlight-against-lcd-panel sealing) so choose your seller well and check their returns policy in case you're not satisfied.
Normally it should also take CRT_Emudriver and display most refreshes without trouble, but again I doubt you'll get any sort of variable refresh with MAME using that Midway custom PC since CRT_Emudriver requires a compatible AMD card in any case.
Or maybe there's a way straight from MAME using the default old built-in switchres option, but that would also require to use GroovyMAME for certain reasons and I'm not sure if you can do it like that, I'd recommend you talk with Calamity.

I'm gonna ask a stupid question I should have asked way sooner  to clear a potential misunderstanding on my part; do you really plan on using the PC inside that cabinet to run MAME and play all kinds of games?

New LCD TVs have done away with VGA and component inputs also.
Depends where you are, I live in Europe and there's still a number of new entry-level Full-HD TVs you can buy (mainly online) and featuring VGA/Component.
Might not be the same on the American market though, yes, or maybe it's only digital signage products.

The other issue I have is the physical constraints of the cabinet though large the maximum theoretical widescreen I can fit is 37".  They don't seem to make anything in between 32" and 37" for a flat panel.  I found a 37" used, they seem to have stopped manufacturing these as well, but I am not 100% sure I can make it fit by removing the bezel without buying it and then I can't return it.  The maximum size of CRT is likely 36" for a television, but 32-34 would be much easier to deal with based on weight.
Indeed these days it jumpt to 43", nothing in-between.
GroovyMAME LCD user: W7, vx3211-mh, i5-4690k @4.1GHz, R7 260x

drun

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Re: Advice for Monitor?
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2018, 12:14:15 pm »
The sony crt would likely have to use a VGA to component transcoder to keep from going digital analog digital from the original board.  I am not sure how mame would output to the set.  I assume you are saying I would have to output mame as 480p fixed as it would upscale anything lower than 480p?  Is the output of that upscale worse than a LCD?
I haven't experienced MAME through a RGB(VGA)>Component transcoder myself, I suppose a pure transcoder wouldn't mind any resolution at whatever refresh rate, but yes the issue here would indeed be the Sony's forced conversion of anything below 480p to 480i. My experience of that sort of forced interlacing at least is that it looks ugly on a CRT no matter what.
So if you have something like a MAME set up to output real arcade low resolutions it won't look good, and if you set it up to output a fixed 480p instead with everything scaled to that you will have a choice of unfiltered, which might show ugly scaling artifacts/shimmering, or filtered which will defeat the true low res look (you can sharpen the bilinear using prescale 2 but I can only speculate about the resulting looks)

Over a flat panel MAME does fine with the same scaling options and it offers more filters beyond bilinear but that Voodoo card might not be able to pull out CRT shaders and similar refinements (fake scanlines whether from within MAME or using an SLG3000 as I've mentioned are other options) but it won't look anything like a real low res CRT either.

The freesync I would have to use a VGA -> HDMI converter for the original hardware, but gain freesync for mame. I am not seeing any 32" freesync monitors with a vga input though?
Nope forget about FreeSync with that PC no matter what, FreeSync requires both a compatible branded card and monitor, and in most cases it works only either straight via DisplayPort or HDMI on a select number of displays.
If you're worried about support for all kinds of refreshes and resolutions, try the Viewsonic VX3276-mhd, it's a monitor known to be quite liberal despite not being FreeSync nor G-Sync compatible. It's a quality IPS monitor but like most IPS displays it can come with a degree of backlight bleed (brighter 'stains' of light visible on dark backgrounds caused by loose backlight-against-lcd-panel sealing) so choose your seller well and check their returns policy in case you're not satisfied.
Normally it should also take CRT_Emudriver and display most refreshes without trouble, but again I doubt you'll get any sort of variable refresh with MAME using that Midway custom PC since CRT_Emudriver requires a compatible AMD card in any case.
Or maybe there's a way straight from MAME using the default old built-in switchres option, but that would also require to use GroovyMAME for certain reasons and I'm not sure if you can do it like that, I'd recommend you talk with Calamity.

I'm gonna ask a stupid question I should have asked way sooner  to clear a potential misunderstanding on my part; do you really plan on using the PC inside that cabinet to run MAME and play all kinds of games?

New LCD TVs have done away with VGA and component inputs also.
Depends where you are, I live in Europe and there's still a number of new entry-level Full-HD TVs you can buy (mainly online) and featuring VGA/Component.
Might not be the same on the American market though, yes, or maybe it's only digital signage products.

The other issue I have is the physical constraints of the cabinet though large the maximum theoretical widescreen I can fit is 37".  They don't seem to make anything in between 32" and 37" for a flat panel.  I found a 37" used, they seem to have stopped manufacturing these as well, but I am not 100% sure I can make it fit by removing the bezel without buying it and then I can't return it.  The maximum size of CRT is likely 36" for a television, but 32-34 would be much easier to deal with based on weight.
Indeed these days it jumpt to 43", nothing in-between.

Sorry for the confusion, I do not plan on using the old PC for anything except the game that is in it.  I don't even think it is possible for it to run more.  I am going to run separate parallel system that will run more games.  I have a slim workstation that isn't being used with a xeon processor and k600 video card and several pi's.  I'd just need to buy a compatible video card for free sync.  I have an ATI 4890, but read they are more difficult to interface.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 12:18:45 pm by drun »

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Advice for Monitor?
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2018, 02:06:37 pm »
Ah okay so basically you need a monitor from that list: http://www.amd.com/en/products/freesync-monitors
preferably one that also features a VGA input to play the game that came with the cabinet without adding a converter/transcoder

And a discrete card from that list: http://www.amd.com/en/technologies/free-sync

If you want a card that will also support Calamity's CRT_Emudriver directly without needing an adapter/transcoder (in case you'd swap for a true low res CRT later) then pick one that has at least a DisplayPort and a DVI-I out (the 'I' is essential)
You can find such cards up to the R9 series. I'm using a R7 260x and stored a spare R7 360 with the same freesync & emudriver support and outputs. Versatility is key.
GroovyMAME LCD user: W7, vx3211-mh, i5-4690k @4.1GHz, R7 260x

drun

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Re: Advice for Monitor?
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2018, 04:35:30 pm »
Ah okay so basically you need a monitor from that list: http://www.amd.com/en/products/freesync-monitors
preferably one that also features a VGA input to play the game that came with the cabinet without adding a converter/transcoder

And a discrete card from that list: http://www.amd.com/en/technologies/free-sync

If you want a card that will also support Calamity's CRT_Emudriver directly without needing an adapter/transcoder (in case you'd swap for a true low res CRT later) then pick one that has at least a DisplayPort and a DVI-I out (the 'I' is essential)
You can find such cards up to the R9 series. I'm using a R7 260x and stored a spare R7 360 with the same freesync & emudriver support and outputs. Versatility is key.


This one seems to match all the criteria.  It is also an IPS panel so should be nice and bright?
https://www.amazon.com/AOC-Q3279VWFD8-Monitor-Free-Sync-Panel/dp/B07CG41Y8Z/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1545860030&sr=8-2&keywords=aoc+ips+32

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Advice for Monitor?
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2018, 03:38:28 am »
This one seems to match all the criteria.  It is also an IPS panel so should be nice and bright?
https://www.amazon.com/AOC-Q3279VWFD8-Monitor-Free-Sync-Panel/dp/B07CG41Y8Z/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1545860030&sr=8-2&keywords=aoc+ips+32
Oh I've heard about that one, it is good and actually used to exist in two versions;

Q3279VWFD8 -> IPS (the one you linked) review: https://pcmonitors.info/reviews/aoc-q3279vwfd8/
Q3279VWF    -> VA (not available in the US) review: https://pcmonitors.info/reviews/aoc-q3279vwf/

I strongly suggest you read both reviews, this is a school case to learn about the pros and cons of VA and IPS.
Note:
- this monitor completely lacks standard VESA mounting, a 3rd party adapter exists though as noted in the review.
- no integrated speakers (but an audio/headphones out)

ONE THING they don't tell you
- IPS panels don't like the intense flickering from some interlaced sources or sprites/shadow flicker (example: the title screen of the game Progear), it can leave burn marks on the screen, but they're not at all definitive and will go after playing a pixels cleaning video for a few hours. Not dramatic just something to keep in mind.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 04:07:41 am by schmerzkaufen »
GroovyMAME LCD user: W7, vx3211-mh, i5-4690k @4.1GHz, R7 260x

  
 

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