value of an arcade monitor

[Jimbo]

So I have the potential opportunity to purchase 4 boxed 17" 15Khz new/unused arcade monitors (chassis/tube/manual/cables).  I much prefer arcade monitors to flatscreens, and I have a few future projects in mind.   My question really is about their worth.  They're a niche item, yet rarer and rarer to come by.  What are your thoughts on value for something like this?  I know it's subjective to a point, but should I not end up using them after a good period of time, would they lose value?

[Titchgamer]

I have no idea of value, But they are likely to only increase in value as finding monitors these days is flaming hard.

Even finding old CRT TV's is difficult, I just paid £40 for a old Sony trinitron and thats taken me 4 months to find.

[Howard_Casto]

You aren't collecting monitors (I hope anyway) so don't worry about them increasing or decreasing in value.  For the next few years anyway, crts are likely to keep going up as they literally aren't made anymore.  Then again, I'll assume that much like the incandescent bulb, demand will become increasingly irrelevant as people embrace new display methods. 

NIB crts are next to impossible to find, but the standard size most people want is 19", so I'm not sure what advice to give you. 

[Jimbo]

Just to be clear, I am collecting but only because I have plans to use them in my own projects.  Should that not happen I'd like to offer them to the community (you guys) for what I paid for them.

Does $320 USD sound like a fair price for a boxed/new 17" 15Hz arcade monitor?

[leapinlew]

I would pay that for a 19", no problem. I'm not sure I've ever built anything that required a 17" CRT. The 17's I've used have always been part of a LCD Bartop build.

That being said, I think $300ish is a decent price for NIB Arcade Monitor.

[pbj]

17" is a damned weird size. What the hell were these intended for?

[Mr. Peabody]

19" veiwable is the bottom end for me. I have PC monitors laying around for end of days. There are enough cabarets out there to gobble those 17s, though.

[jennifer]

17" is a damned weird size. What the hell were these intended for?

Jennifer was thinking that too, You don't suppose old apple monitors or something?

[Titchgamer]

Some of the small Candy/Cabaret style cabs maybe?

[nitrogen_widget]

Perfect for a Tully build.

[Jimbo]

I've not heard of a Tully build before...

These are 17" Hantarex Polos....

They are a little small, I'm thinking potential for bartop (just about), or some kind of mini-cab.

[Titchgamer]

Dont think you would be building a bartop with them, But I would use one in a Cocktail cab if I found one that small.

[jennifer]

Edit....Sorry man.... ...Tully yes awesome.

[nitrogen_widget]

I've not heard of a Tully build before...

These are 17" Hantarex Polos....

They are a little small, I'm thinking potential for bartop (just about), or some kind of mini-cab.

This is the Tully.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,151827.msg1588765.html#msg1588765

[yotsuya]

I miss that cab. And Louis.

[Jimbo]

I've not heard of a Tully build before...

These are 17" Hantarex Polos....

They are a little small, I'm thinking potential for bartop (just about), or some kind of mini-cab.

This is the Tully.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,151827.msg1588765.html#msg1588765

Ah nice... that kinda size looks like it might be good for single player vertical shoot-em ups

[paigeoliver]

$300 is high for an arcade monitor that is the wrong size for basically every arcade game in existence. Really, I can't even think of anything that had a 17". A scant few Japanese import cabinets had an 18" monitor instead of a 19",  and some black and white and vector monitors had odd tube sizes. But I never heard of a 17" monitor in anything. I am betting photo booth or kiddy ride application and not actual arcade game.

[behrmr]

Agree with Page. These really have no traditional “arcade” use. They probably were made for Gambling machines. 

[Jimbo]

Yeah that's fair enough.  That's probably why these are the only ones left and are being offered.

I get that they're the wrong size for most existing arcade games, but I suppose they could still be used in Mame projects if the smaller size isn't considered to be an issue.  e.g. would you have a 17" CRT or a 19" LCD.  I'd probably pick the CRT still.

But yeah... maybe it's on the expensive side.... hmm... (I haven't bought them yet)

[big10p]

Yeah, at 17" they're not worth a great deal. Some people might want one for a workbench rig or something, though.

[ark_ader]

With all the CRT monitors being replaced with LED for the IGT Multi Gambling Machines, where are all those CRTs going to?  I talked to a casino tech, and he didn't know.

A landfill maybe?

[jennifer]

With all the CRT monitors being replaced with LED for the IGT Multi Gambling Machines, where are all those CRTs going to?  I talked to a casino tech, and he didn't know.

A landfill maybe?

Probably into my secret stash being Jenn has mountains of them, Tvs too, (*fun story, the jungle chip can be hacked in a pinch, don't let anyone tell you different) For some odd reason scrappers scrounge them for the copper, but reality is there is not enough to be worth the cost trouble or effort IMO... 17" is not common this is true, but given the climate, certainly shouldn't be overlooked either, especially NIB.

[nipsmg]

(*fun story, the jungle chip can be hacked in a pinch, don't let anyone tell you different)

I just modded a Trinitron and am now obsessed with this.  I'm constantly looking for them to mod now.  The Sony BA-5D chassis I worked on is SO EASY to work with.



BYOAC Thread on the RGB mod (and details of my first disaster trying this).
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,158542.0.html

Thread on the Shmups forum for the BA-5D
https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=63622&p=1342460#p1342460

Shmups General TV RGB modding thread:
https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=56155

[Zebra]

Buy one of those new 27" CRT tri-sync arcade monitors from Happ while they are on sale. I just bought one as a spare:



27" is a much more pleasing size for old arcade games and being able to play CGA, EGA and VGA games at native res is great.

CRT monitors and Tv's are not nearly as rare as some people on eBay think. These things were in every home and arcade on the planet for a number of decades. There is still plenty left.

I would pay $300 for a curved 25" CGA arcade monitor used but in good condition (I.e. No burn) and I think Happ's price of $527 for a new tri-sync is a fair.

I can't see many people being happy with a tiny 17" for their main monitor. Maybe for a novelty bartop build. I would pick up one of the many 27" curb dump CRT tv's off Craigslist over a 17". You can easily find a Sony Trinitron with component video for $30.

[Zebidee]

With all the CRT monitors being replaced with LED for the IGT Multi Gambling Machines, where are all those CRTs going to?  I talked to a casino tech, and he didn't know.

A landfill maybe?

Probably into my secret stash being Jenn has mountains of them, Tvs too, (*fun story, the jungle chip can be hacked in a pinch, don't let anyone tell you different) For some odd reason scrappers scrounge them for the copper, but reality is there is not enough to be worth the cost trouble or effort IMO... 17" is not common this is true, but given the climate, certainly shouldn't be overlooked either, especially NIB.

Jenn is onto a winner there IMHO.

Many old TVs can be RGB modded. The ones that can't can often be YPrPb modded, which can look pretty darn good too. Another interesting fact is that the "A" grade tubes went to TVs, "B" were for arcade, but they are essentially the same thing and in many cases they are interchangeable. Shhhh, don't tell anyone, otherwise our little secret will be out.

Being is this game for a long time, I've  seen the value of quality old CRTs has started increasing after bottoming out a few years. Enthusiasts are chasing them, and not just for arcade. Console kiddies (My term for the late GenX/Gen Y youth that came after my generation) use them for their favourite games, and there are many AV enthusiasts that prefer them too. I see a thriving trade and interest in even much smaller screens eg 14".

17" arcade monitor would be great for cocktails. Anything 17"-21" would well work in  a cocktail, especially if it is oriented towards classic vertical games. One issue is that some games are actually harder to play on large screens (eye has to scan a larger area, shortens your reaction times). I really value a smaller screen and centralised joystick for many shmups.

Having said all that, $300 each seems a little steep in today's market. I'd be interested, but looking for a discount. Maybe in a few years.

[nipsmg]

Buy one of those new 27" CRT tri-sync arcade monitors from Happ while they are on sale. I just bought one as a spare:



27" is a much more pleasing size for old arcade games and being able to play CGA, EGA and VGA games at native res is great.

CRT monitors and Tv's are not nearly as rare as some people on eBay think. These things were in every home and arcade on the planet for a number of decades. There is still plenty left.

I would pay $300 for a curved 25" CGA arcade monitor used but in good condition (I.e. No burn) and I think Happ's price of $527 for a new tri-sync is a fair.

I can't see many people being happy with a tiny 17" for their main monitor. Maybe for a novelty bartop build. I would pick up one of the many 27" curb dump CRT tv's off Craigslist over a 17". You can easily find a Sony Trinitron with component video for $30.

I want one so bad.. but don't have the $600 to spend at the moment.

With materials I can have, i can easily find and RGB mod a trinitron for between $0 and $40.  While it's not perfect (I have to downscale some games or play them at 480i), it's pretty damn close.. And **MOST** of the stuff I want to play is 15khz anyways.

If only I had the $600 tho....

[Automark]

a few years ago, I bought a few nos 19" 15khz monitors for 75 euros each, now people offer me 300+ euro for them. But I;m gonna hold on to them for my own needs 

[big10p]

Just goes to show how much difference 2" can make. 

[Mr. Peabody]

@Zebra: that's curious. You have to look hard for them, jeeeez.   https://na.suzohapp.com/products/monitors/49-2715-00

A VGA/SVGA monitor with MAME set correctly (this is possible in current MAME) will look 95% the same, with no hassling with drivers

[Zebra]

@Zebra: that's curious. You have to look hard for them, jeeeez.   https://na.suzohapp.com/products/monitors/49-2715-00

A VGA/SVGA monitor with MAME set correctly (this is possible in current MAME) will look 95% the same, with no hassling with drivers

I disagree. Using a vga / SVGA monitor for cga games looks filthy horrid. You need to turn on HLSL settings which defeats the purpose. Old arcade games need to be played in exact native resolutions and refresh rates to look good and not have tearing or glitches.

As for hassle with drivers.... crtemu and Groovymame is free. You install it once, like any other driver then it's done.

For me, Groovymame with crt emu has removed a lot of the hassle I used to have in making adjustments for every game to try to make it look ok. Now, I just switch on an play.

[Zebra]

Buy one of those new 27" CRT tri-sync arcade monitors from Happ while they are on sale. I just bought one as a spare:



27" is a much more pleasing size for old arcade games and being able to play CGA, EGA and VGA games at native res is great.

CRT monitors and Tv's are not nearly as rare as some people on eBay think. These things were in every home and arcade on the planet for a number of decades. There is still plenty left.

I would pay $300 for a curved 25" CGA arcade monitor used but in good condition (I.e. No burn) and I think Happ's price of $527 for a new tri-sync is a fair.

I can't see many people being happy with a tiny 17" for their main monitor. Maybe for a novelty bartop build. I would pick up one of the many 27" curb dump CRT tv's off Craigslist over a 17". You can easily find a Sony Trinitron with component video for $30.

I want one so bad.. but don't have the $600 to spend at the moment.

With materials I can have, i can easily find and RGB mod a trinitron for between $0 and $40.  While it's not perfect (I have to downscale some games or play them at 480i), it's pretty damn close.. And **MOST** of the stuff I want to play is 15khz anyways.

If only I had the $600 tho....

It's probably now or never if you want a new crt arcade monitor. There won't too many more opportunities.

I couldn't live with a modded consumer tv for Mame / arcade games. I used to use a Sony Trinitron with an RGB scart port when I lived in the UK. They were great for my Neo Geo, SNES and PS1 etc. For arcade games, they were problematic for two reasons:

- arcade games come in all sorts of obscure / custom resolutions and refresh rates. I have to adjust the image size and position every time I switch games. On Sony Trinitrons, the only way to do that was to go into the service menu which is a pain in the ass. My arcade monitors have v size and H size pots on a remote board which I keep on my desk.

- many arcade games use unusual vertical refresh rates and every Sony Tv I owned here and in Europe was fussy when they were not close to NTSC or Pal spec (60hz and 50hz). Net net, you probably won't be able to play some games at native res and refresh without the image rolling. My arcade monitors will accept anything from 47hz to 70hz.

Don't get me wrong, a crt tv with an RGB mod is a decent third best option (arcade and pro rgb monitors being 1 and 2). I just couldn't tolerate their limitations for this.

[Zebidee]

Buy one of those new 27" CRT tri-sync arcade monitors from Happ while they are on sale. I just bought one as a spare:



27" is a much more pleasing size for old arcade games and being able to play CGA, EGA and VGA games at native res is great.

CRT monitors and Tv's are not nearly as rare as some people on eBay think. These things were in every home and arcade on the planet for a number of decades. There is still plenty left.

I would pay $300 for a curved 25" CGA arcade monitor used but in good condition (I.e. No burn) and I think Happ's price of $527 for a new tri-sync is a fair.

I can't see many people being happy with a tiny 17" for their main monitor. Maybe for a novelty bartop build. I would pick up one of the many 27" curb dump CRT tv's off Craigslist over a 17". You can easily find a Sony Trinitron with component video for $30.

I want one so bad.. but don't have the $600 to spend at the moment.

With materials I can have, i can easily find and RGB mod a trinitron for between $0 and $40.  While it's not perfect (I have to downscale some games or play them at 480i), it's pretty damn close.. And **MOST** of the stuff I want to play is 15khz anyways.

If only I had the $600 tho....

It's probably now or never if you want a new crt arcade monitor. There won't too many more opportunities.

I couldn't live with a modded consumer tv for Mame / arcade games. I used to use a Sony Trinitron with an RGB scart port when I lived in the UK. They were great for my Neo Geo, SNES and PS1 etc. For arcade games, they were problematic for two reasons:

- arcade games come in all sorts of obscure / custom resolutions and refresh rates. I have to adjust the image size and position every time I switch games. On Sony Trinitrons, the only way to do that was to go into the service menu which is a pain in the ass. My arcade monitors have v size and H size pots on a remote board which I keep on my desk.

- many arcade games use unusual vertical refresh rates and every Sony Tv I owned here and in Europe was fussy when they were not close to NTSC or Pal spec (60hz and 50hz). Net net, you probably won't be able to play some games at native res and refresh without the image rolling. My arcade monitors will accept anything from 47hz to 70hz.

Don't get me wrong, a crt tv with an RGB mod is a decent third best option (arcade and pro rgb monitors being 1 and 2). I just couldn't tolerate their limitations for this.

Zebra, what you say is basically true for good quality arcade monitors in good condition. However it is not that simple.

For example, I prefer my Sony Trinitron PVM2730QM for most horizontal games simply because on the Sony the colours are clearer, the picture brighter and there are adjustment pots to handle fine convergence issues etc.

But I don't like the Sony for rotating/vertical games (cylindrical screen makes it look weird/wrong). This issue is specific to Sony Trinitron TVs, other brands don't have this issue.

Good TVs will rarely have insurmountable image size problems, with a big exception for overscan. Most normal TV users would get upset with seeing a black border before screen edge around the image, they'd feel that they are missing something, so ironically the TV makers make the image bigger and you lose the 3-7% that goes past the screen (image overlaps into the black surrounds, getting lost). People usually don't complain about what they don't see (suckers!). Obviously we don't like that, and minimising overscan usually takes a lot of fragging around in service menu and with pots to get it good. But once you have done this once, you shouldn't need to do it again.

Another thing about TVs (and particularly PVMs) is that they are usually uber-engineered compared to a arcade monitor, which means they are less likely to have problems like HV regulation and such which are common issues I have with arcade monitors, even new ones. Images on TVs are usually more stable etc. Just have a look at the back of a typical TV and the amount of electrical componentry in there, compared to a arcade monitor.

Of course, downside of more complicated electronics is that TVs are harder to fix, and it can be hard to find TV repair people with relevant experience with your particular set (esp these days as they move onto other things).  Some TV repair guys refuse to look at it if it is de-cased! By comparison, I can look at an arcade monitor chassis and have a pretty good idea of what most parts do, and probably repair it myself or find people who know how to repair them (although even that is getting hard).

Another thing is that CRT TVs, even the cheap ones, usually got better tubes than arcade monitors. Some of the very best displays I've setup for clients have involved recycling a late-model TV tube to use with a good quality arcade monitor chassis. This combo is truly awesome.

Regarding vertical frequencies, good arcade monitors usually handle the mid-50s hz frequencies better than NTSC/PAL TVs, though even then they still often lose it around 55hz. Obviously you expect better results with better quality. However, this is all kind-or irrelevant when using software like Groovymame which can run your 55hz game in 60hz modes and "emulate" the difference.

Aside from the fact that I probably can't find a new arcade monitor (with tube) for sale in this country, I'm not sure how I could justify spending $300+ on an arcade monitor given the alternatives available around (and in my shed). On the other hand, if it is good quality then maybe it really is worth $300 "out-of-the-box" - CRTs are becoming scarce and it will only get worse, not better. I'm hoarding all my CRTs.

In summary, I use both TVs and arcade monitors and judge each set on it's individual merits. I collect/use both, it is all "grist for the mill" to me, stuff I can churn to make more arcade cabs etc out of. Cost is an issue, though not the main one. Often I chop/change components, esp tubes. Arcade monitor are simpler to use, often more flexible, but TVs often (not always) give a superior image. Cost and availability is obviously part of it too. I can easily get a good quality CRT TV (2nd hand) for maybe $100 or less. This is a lot cheaper than buying a new arcade monitor for $300-$527 and gives very good results. Or combine a good quality TV tube with a good quality arcade chassis for great results.

[Jimbo]

Interesting thoughts!

I've managed to get the price down on these 4 x 17" 15Khz monitors to just under $240 each.  They're new in box with manuals/cables/etc.  That seems a reasonable price to me.  I realise 17" isn't the norm and will be no good for replacing in original machines etc, but for some home/hobby projects I think they'll be good (better than an LCD anyway).

I'm already planning to use one for a dedicated single player vertical shoot-em up cab.

[Zebidee]

Interesting thoughts!

I've managed to get the price down on these 4 x 17" 15Khz monitors to just under $240 each.  They're new in box with manuals/cables/etc.  That seems a reasonable price to me.  I realise 17" isn't the norm and will be no good for replacing in original machines etc, but for some home/hobby projects I think they'll be good (better than an LCD anyway).

I'm already planning to use one for a dedicated single player vertical shoot-em up cab.

Jimbo, that sounds like a very fair price and they would be perfect for a vertical shmup cab or a cocktail (or a combo of those two).

You'd likely find that a suitable recycled TV tube up to 21" would work fine with them too, if you manage to get your hands on any. In the 17-21" range many tubes are interchangeable, so long as you get the neck pin count to match and the yoke impedances vaguely similar.

This site is a useful guide to tube compatibility, including heater & G2 G1 voltage as well - just enter your tube number (found on back of tube), and it will tell you what tubes, in it's database, match:
tubular.atomized.org/

[Jimbo]

Interesting thoughts!

I've managed to get the price down on these 4 x 17" 15Khz monitors to just under $240 each.  They're new in box with manuals/cables/etc.  That seems a reasonable price to me.  I realise 17" isn't the norm and will be no good for replacing in original machines etc, but for some home/hobby projects I think they'll be good (better than an LCD anyway).

I'm already planning to use one for a dedicated single player vertical shoot-em up cab.

Jimbo, that sounds like a very fair price and they would be perfect for a vertical shmup cab or a cocktail (or a combo of those two).

You'd likely find that a suitable recycled TV tube up to 21" would work fine with them too, if you manage to get your hands on any. In the 17-21" range many tubes are interchangeable, so long as you get the neck pin count to match and the yoke impedances vaguely similar.

This site is a useful guide to tube compatibility, including heater & G2 voltage as well - just enter your tube number (found on back of tube), and it will tell you what tubes, in it's database, match:
tubular.atomized.org/

Good to know   Thank you!

[solocon]

Interesting thoughts!

I've managed to get the price down on these 4 x 17" 15Khz monitors to just under $240 each.  They're new in box with manuals/cables/etc.  That seems a reasonable price to me.  I realise 17" isn't the norm and will be no good for replacing in original machines etc, but for some home/hobby projects I think they'll be good (better than an LCD anyway).

I'm already planning to use one for a dedicated single player vertical shoot-em up cab.

Each? IMO, I'd pass.

[jonbenderr]

Well since this topic is here, out of curiosity what would the price be on a used NANAO MS9? 

Working condition, no mounting bracket?

[Zebidee]

Well since this topic is here, out of curiosity what would the price be on a used NANAO MS9? 

Working condition, no mounting bracket?

Are you selling? Then it's worth what you can get for it.

If you're buying, it's worth what you're prepared to pay.

See, I'm also an economist ;-D

EDIT: Sorry, while technically correct, that was a bit facetious, but mostly because I actually am an economist and that is the answer I'd expect if I asked any of my colleagues.

Seriously, check out your local marketplaces for similar items. Size? 29"? I'd be surprised if you could get more than $200-$250. If I was buying, I'd be looking for somewhere under $150.

[Mr. Peabody]

@Zebra: not HLSL.


MAME pre-'07: DD > scanlines (50% is good) > swres > 640x480 for horizontal - 800x600 for vertical > 60hz > pick bit depth > perhaps use triple buffer/sync to refresh/etc


MAME post-'07: D3D > everything off on that tab > scanlines.png > swres > 640x480 for horizontal - 800x600 for vertical > 60hz > perhaps use triplebuffer/sync to refresh/etc

[Zebra]

Buy one of those new 27" CRT tri-sync arcade monitors from Happ while they are on sale. I just bought one as a spare:



27" is a much more pleasing size for old arcade games and being able to play CGA, EGA and VGA games at native res is great.

CRT monitors and Tv's are not nearly as rare as some people on eBay think. These things were in every home and arcade on the planet for a number of decades. There is still plenty left.

I would pay $300 for a curved 25" CGA arcade monitor used but in good condition (I.e. No burn) and I think Happ's price of $527 for a new tri-sync is a fair.

I can't see many people being happy with a tiny 17" for their main monitor. Maybe for a novelty bartop build. I would pick up one of the many 27" curb dump CRT tv's off Craigslist over a 17". You can easily find a Sony Trinitron with component video for $30.

I want one so bad.. but don't have the $600 to spend at the moment.

With materials I can have, i can easily find and RGB mod a trinitron for between $0 and $40.  While it's not perfect (I have to downscale some games or play them at 480i), it's pretty damn close.. And **MOST** of the stuff I want to play is 15khz anyways.

If only I had the $600 tho....

It's probably now or never if you want a new crt arcade monitor. There won't too many more opportunities.

I couldn't live with a modded consumer tv for Mame / arcade games. I used to use a Sony Trinitron with an RGB scart port when I lived in the UK. They were great for my Neo Geo, SNES and PS1 etc. For arcade games, they were problematic for two reasons:

- arcade games come in all sorts of obscure / custom resolutions and refresh rates. I have to adjust the image size and position every time I switch games. On Sony Trinitrons, the only way to do that was to go into the service menu which is a pain in the ass. My arcade monitors have v size and H size pots on a remote board which I keep on my desk.

- many arcade games use unusual vertical refresh rates and every Sony Tv I owned here and in Europe was fussy when they were not close to NTSC or Pal spec (60hz and 50hz). Net net, you probably won't be able to play some games at native res and refresh without the image rolling. My arcade monitors will accept anything from 47hz to 70hz.

Don't get me wrong, a crt tv with an RGB mod is a decent third best option (arcade and pro rgb monitors being 1 and 2). I just couldn't tolerate their limitations for this.

Zebra, what you say is basically true for good quality arcade monitors in good condition. However it is not that simple.

For example, I prefer my Sony Trinitron PVM2730QM for most horizontal games simply because on the Sony the colours are clearer, the picture brighter and there are adjustment pots to handle fine convergence issues etc.

But I don't like the Sony for rotating/vertical games (cylindrical screen makes it look weird/wrong). This issue is specific to Sony Trinitron TVs, other brands don't have this issue.

Good TVs will rarely have insurmountable image size problems, with a big exception for overscan. Most normal TV users would get upset with seeing a black border before screen edge around the image, they'd feel that they are missing something, so ironically the TV makers make the image bigger and you lose the 3-7% that goes past the screen (image overlaps into the black surrounds, getting lost). People usually don't complain about what they don't see (suckers!). Obviously we don't like that, and minimising overscan usually takes a lot of fragging around in service menu and with pots to get it good. But once you have done this once, you shouldn't need to do it again.

Another thing about TVs (and particularly PVMs) is that they are usually uber-engineered compared to a arcade monitor, which means they are less likely to have problems like HV regulation and such which are common issues I have with arcade monitors, even new ones. Images on TVs are usually more stable etc. Just have a look at the back of a typical TV and the amount of electrical componentry in there, compared to a arcade monitor.

Of course, downside of more complicated electronics is that TVs are harder to fix, and it can be hard to find TV repair people with relevant experience with your particular set (esp these days as they move onto other things).  Some TV repair guys refuse to look at it if it is de-cased! By comparison, I can look at an arcade monitor chassis and have a pretty good idea of what most parts do, and probably repair it myself or find people who know how to repair them (although even that is getting hard).

Another thing is that CRT TVs, even the cheap ones, usually got better tubes than arcade monitors. Some of the very best displays I've setup for clients have involved recycling a late-model TV tube to use with a good quality arcade monitor chassis. This combo is truly awesome.

Regarding vertical frequencies, good arcade monitors usually handle the mid-50s hz frequencies better than NTSC/PAL TVs, though even then they still often lose it around 55hz. Obviously you expect better results with better quality. However, this is all kind-or irrelevant when using software like Groovymame which can run your 55hz game in 60hz modes and "emulate" the difference.

Aside from the fact that I probably can't find a new arcade monitor (with tube) for sale in this country, I'm not sure how I could justify spending $300+ on an arcade monitor given the alternatives available around (and in my shed). On the other hand, if it is good quality then maybe it really is worth $300 "out-of-the-box" - CRTs are becoming scarce and it will only get worse, not better. I'm hoarding all my CRTs.

In summary, I use both TVs and arcade monitors and judge each set on it's individual merits. I collect/use both, it is all "grist for the mill" to me, stuff I can churn to make more arcade cabs etc out of. Cost is an issue, though not the main one. Often I chop/change components, esp tubes. Arcade monitor are simpler to use, often more flexible, but TVs often (not always) give a superior image. Cost and availability is obviously part of it too. I can easily get a good quality CRT TV (2nd hand) for maybe $100 or less. This is a lot cheaper than buying a new arcade monitor for $300-$527 and gives very good results. Or combine a good quality TV tube with a good quality arcade chassis for great results.

This is not accurate. The idea that, on a good tv, you can adjust the image size once and then never need to again for arcade games in nonsense. It has nothing to do with the quality of the tv and everything to do with varying resolutions.

It's just a fact that if you make the screen size perfect for a 224 line game like SF2, the image will get cut off at the top and bottom on 254 line games like Mortal Kombat.

Both my arcade monitors handle any vertical refresh rate from 47hz to 70hz. More importantly, crt arcade monitors almost always have v hold and H hold pots so, if the image starts rolling, you can stabilize it.

Even if a Sony Trinitron tv allowed v hold and h hold adjustments in the service menu, it would be hard / impossible to use the OSD with a rolling image...

A Sony PVM or other pro monitors are a different story as they usually have more conveniently located image size adjustments. I have an Ikegami TM20-90rh which I like very much for vintage gaming.

[Zebidee]

This is not accurate. The idea that, on a good tv, you can adjust the image size once and then never need to again for arcade games in nonsense. It has nothing to do with the quality of the tv and everything to do with varying resolutions.

It's just a fact that if you make the screen size perfect for a 224 line game like SF2, the image will get cut off at the top and bottom on 254 line games like Mortal Kombat.

Both my arcade monitors handle any vertical refresh rate from 47hz to 70hz. More importantly, crt arcade monitors almost always have v hold and H hold pots so, if the image starts rolling, you can stabilize it.

Even if a Sony Trinitron tv allowed v hold and h hold adjustments in the service menu, it would be hard / impossible to use the OSD with a rolling image...

A Sony PVM or other pro monitors are a different story as they usually have more conveniently located image size adjustments. I have an Ikegami TM20-90rh which I like very much for vintage gaming.

Zebra, you misunderstand me. Thus, I need to make another long post to explain.

I've said it just above, and will repeat it here: "Arcade monitor are simpler to use, often more flexible [ie adjustable], but TVs often (not always) give a superior image."

After setting them up, I don't even try to adjust the image size on my TVs-cum-arcade monitors because of...... COMPROMISE!

Once I've adjusted the TV image size/location in the setup phases, I rarely change it again. Part of the reason is I've compromised and I'm happy with what I get for a very large range of resolutions/games. The TV mostly just fills the screen-space with the mode you have. Occasionally, if I have a game that runs off the screen too much, I might just run it in a slightly larger mode to give it the room to spread out. There are a lot of other things you can tweak in MAME/GROOVYMAME to help here too.

Compromise means that when I run Galaga in 288 vertical lines on a horizontal screen, I loose 2-4 lines top/bottom from overscan. Then change games, and Mortal Kombat also fits similarly, without adjustment. If I overscan a few lines in MK and yet get some black lines top/bottom in SF2 then that's OK too. In fact, it looks bloody great, and with good bezels (black background around screen) nobody can tell the difference unless specifically looking for it (and those people are nitpickers you can safely ignore). Compromise means that I never need to adjust it again.

Yes it would be nice to have easy control over the H/V sizes via pots, would make eliminating that overscan a breeze.  Arcade monitors definitely have an advantage in that regard, though not all are as flexible as you might think. For example, horz width adjustment on arcade monitors is usually limited to maybe 2cm total, or just not present at all. Furthermore, the horz width coil adjustment pot on many (cheaper) arcade monitors often simply doesn't work.

Yes, you can tweak pots for every new game if you have an arcade monitor. However I also follow the principle that once you have your arcade machine fired up and are swapping between games, you shouldn't have to go making pot adjustments because that ruins the "flow", the "vibe", breaks the fourth wall or something like that. So set it to your compromise and leave it there. Also, pots deteriorate quickly with excess use and they will wear out a whole lot faster than your joysticks/buttons. Basically, I don't like constantly fiddling with pots during game-time.

Some people extend their pots so that they can adjust them from a cab's control panel. This usually involves adding a completely new pot and leaves the old one on the board, and is preferable to sneaking around the back of your arcade monitor every time you want to change games. If you have the skill to do this, you also have the skill to change pots when they wear out.

Compromise (without pots) might mean that I have to accept some black borders on certain games, or a few lines cut-off. I'm happy with that. I'm not one of those people that will throw a fit because they can see some black lines, or can't see the very top 2 pixels of the "HIGH SCORE" letters.

Now, you might think with all this "compromise" that I'm lax about quality. In fact, the opposite is true. I am very fussy, and yet I am also realistic. I'm more fussy about game "experience", and I feel that constantly opening things up and adjusting monitor pots ruins that experience, for me and for others, so it is something I'd prefer to avoid.

I also believe that monitors/cabs should be setup for certain kinds of games. Rather than trying to satisfy every possible game, I prefer to have multiple cabs. At the very least, both horizontal & vertical cabs, although I know that not everyone can do this (===> COMPROMISE). Even so, unless I had like 20 cabs, I'd run MK and SF2 on the same cab, avoid adjusting pots, and just not worry about a little bit of black border.

Comparison pics for you, freshly taken from my cab without any tweaking, and I think they look great just as they are, including black lines that you really don't even notice. Learn to love the black. PC with ArcadeVGA. RGB via SCART. TV is an older 80's period Panasonic 29" (Sony is out for repairs).

[Osirus23]

Found a 32" Panasonic CRT. Should I pick it up?

[ark_ader]

Found a 32" Panasonic CRT. Should I pick it up?

Yes pick it up.

Get a friend as it is heavy.

Perfect for a showcase cab.

[Zebidee]

Find two and make an awesome dual-player driving game rig.

[Osirus23]

Found a 32" Panasonic CRT. Should I pick it up?

Yes pick it up.

Get a friend as it is heavy.

Perfect for a showcase cab.

Got it. Not bad for $13.

Composite input only. I wonder if I can do an RGB mod.

[Mr. Peabody]

@Zebidee: black is good. I'd rather a nice image, with the correct color, that doesn't fill the screen, than otherwise that did. The first image is niice. In the second I see no lines.

[paigeoliver]

There is something called a jungle chip or jungle mod you can do to a lot of crts to make them RGB.

Found a 32" Panasonic CRT. Should I pick it up?

Yes pick it up.

Get a friend as it is heavy.

Perfect for a showcase cab.

Got it. Not bad for $13.

Composite input only. I wonder if I can do an RGB mod.

[RandyT]

There is something called a jungle chip or jungle mod you can do to a lot of crts to make them RGB.

From what I can figure out, if the TV has an overlay for the menus, the inputs for these signals, which just happen to be raw RGB, are commandeered.  However, some TVs' internals have only a single color input, or a different form of data for the overlay, so it can be a bit of a crap shoot.  It takes some digging for service manuals and chip datasheets to flesh out if it's possible.

That monitor could probably look pretty nice, if it has the right guts for the mod.

[Zebidee]

Read about state-of-the-art RGB modding on the shmups forum (all 72 pages)
https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56155&sid=b5439b1fe08ed932143e7be92936d6f0

I've even modded a cheap Korean/Chinese 21" TV to take component inputs. It's OSD was built into the jungle chip, so no RGB inputs to take advantage of. But the jungle had an un-utilised ability to accept YCrCb inputs so I used them instead. This was really very easy, just finding the input pins and tracing it back so I could solder wires in without being even close to the jungle.

[RandyT]

It's OSD was built into the jungle chip, so no RGB inputs to take advantage of. But the jungle had an utilised ability to accept YCrCb inputs so I used them instead. This was really very easy, just finding the input pins and tracing it back so I could solder wires in without being even close to the jungle.

That's where I found my info.  Like I wrote, service manuals and chip datasheets .  Unfortunately, not all of these jungle chips have the ability to do this, and even if they do, some of the documentation for more obscure parts is almost impossible to find.  I have a dozen older 19" tube sets here with no way in, as far as I have been able to find, even though they have a simple OSD.  So it's best to try to find a set that someone has already successfully modified, unless you like to do a lot of digging and experimenting.

[pbj]

Don't those jungle chip mods require composite sync?  I don't see anyone hooking up arcade boards to CRTs with those mods.

I've looked into doing it for consoles, but I realize that isn't how consoles looked back in the day so the point is lost on me.

[RandyT]

Don't those jungle chip mods require composite sync?  I don't see anyone hooking up arcade boards to CRTs with those mods.

I've looked into doing it for consoles, but I realize that isn't how consoles looked back in the day so the point is lost on me.

I think most arcade boards are composite sync, aren't they?  Regardless, there are some simple circuits to produce the type of sync you need.

Whether consoles looked that way or not, I can't take looking at dot crawl anymore. RGB provides a ridiculously nice and clean image that makes the alternative difficult to accept, once experienced.

[Zebidee]

All you really need is the datasheet for the jungle IC - or for one close to it! The one I modded had no service manual and most of the datasheets were in Chinese. But I found datasheets/manuals for similar models in English and that was enough.

All you really need is to identify where the relevant pins are, and hopefully some info about how to get into the TVs service mode to change some settings.

Don't those jungle chip mods require composite sync?  I don't see anyone hooking up arcade boards to CRTs with those mods.

I've looked into doing it for consoles, but I realize that isn't how consoles looked back in the day so the point is lost on me.

I think most arcade boards are composite sync, aren't they?  Regardless, there are some simple circuits to produce the type of sync you need.

Whether consoles looked that way or not, I can't take looking at dot crawl anymore. RGB provides a ridiculously nice and clean image that makes the alternative difficult to accept, once experienced.

Most TVs take composite sync, and you can usually just feed the sync in via the TV's composite inputs.

EDIT: Arcade PCBs can be composite or some combination positive and negative H&V sync, so to reliably use a TV for arcade boards you would have to include a sync "cleaner" like an LM1881 chip in your RGB TV mod. You would also want to put some (say) 220ohm resistors (or a 500ohm pot) on each RGB input as arcade RGB signal levels can be up to 5vp-p (TVs want 0.7vp-p).

Seems that "Console kiddies", the 35-50+ age group, are among those taking the lead with RGB modding TVs for retrogaming, as they are now of an age where they have their own kids, stable lives and enough disposable income to start thinking about these things.

These folks often aren't even really interested in arcade cabs, just the CRT TVs

I've heard the NES in RGB is often considered a downgrade, as it is just TOO sharp lol.

[pbj]

Whether consoles looked that way or not, I can't take looking at dot crawl anymore. RGB provides a ridiculously nice and clean image that makes the alternative difficult to accept, once experienced.

How close do you sit to your TV exactly?

[RandyT]

How close do you sit to your TV exactly?

I have big TV's 

Seriously though, ever see that moving "checkerboard" pattern that seems to overlay images on NTSC output with older consoles?  I can't see why anyone would choose to keep that, given the option.  It's a display artifact, and not a useful one.

As to the images being too sharp, it's easily fuzzed up a bit with a slight tweak of the focus knob, if that's what you like.

[Zebidee]

Seriously though, ever see that moving "checkerboard" pattern that seems to overlay images on NTSC output with older consoles?  I can't see why anyone would choose to keep that, given the option.  It's a display artifact, and not a useful one.

As to the images being too sharp, it's easily fuzzed up a bit with a slight tweak of the focus knob, if that's what you like.

I've never really been into consoles myself. I was a little too old to be into them as a kid, at that time they were mostly crap versions of arcade games or PC games. I still enjoyed gaming, but and PC games were (as a general rule) superior to whatever I could've been spending my time with on consoles.

Now imagine the scene in Terminator II when young John Conner laments his lost childhood, spent riding around in helicopters and blowing stuff up, while all the other kids were into "Nin-ten-dooooh". 

These days I appreciate consoles more, at least for some of the better games eg my kids are getting into Zelda.

But yes, the console kiddies are now doing RGB mods to their TVs and their consoles and think of it as a great thing, except perhaps for the NES players. Some of it is pretty good.

[Mr. Peabody]

Since Zebra hasn't commented on my display settings, I'll post an image. 640x480 with scanlines.png. The color of my camera may be a little brighter. Also, the image has been reduced 60% and saved as JPEG to fit here.