Author Topic: My CP too big? (Read 4448 times)

PacManess · « **on:** February 08, 2004, 09:50:52 am »

We marked off and planned the CP last night, making happy cutting holes and what not.
It is a 2 player board with an extra dedicated Pac-Man 4 way Wico in the middle.
Point is...the board itself is going to be a hair under four feet in length...do you think this is too big?
I don't really know of any way to condense it to keep one of the players from hitting the Pac-Stick mid game...so I used a lot of space there.
I'm only going to have one "admin" button for SHIFT, then we can worry about the rest for dual purposes.
Anyway, 4 feet long ok you think?

krick · « **Reply #1 on:** February 08, 2004, 11:15:36 am »

It seems to me that you could get two players and an extra stick in a control panel MUCH smaller than that.

I've seen very fairly complicated 2-player controls plus a trackball, spinner, and 4 way joystick just under 3 feet....

http://www.slikstik.com/classfeatures.htm

Spaced Invader · « **Reply #2 on:** February 08, 2004, 11:39:06 am »

Four feet too big? Em...yes.

PacManess · « **Reply #3 on:** February 08, 2004, 11:56:36 am »

I think where the problem might lie with my CP is that there is space on both sides that I wanted to allow for "arm room". The buttons are on the outside on both sides (Player 1's buttons are on the left and Player 2's are on the right)...how much space should I leave between the last button and the end of the CP?
Any ideas?

Spaced Invader · « **Reply #4 on:** February 08, 2004, 01:56:31 pm »

Picture would help...pic?

Witchboard · « **Reply #5 on:** February 08, 2004, 01:58:26 pm »

4 feet seems pretty large for a 2 player panel. My 4 player panel that I'm designing is only 45". But if elbow room is what your after, I'm sure you got it.

PacManess · « **Reply #6 on:** February 08, 2004, 02:14:45 pm »

I have some pics...give me just a sec...I'll throw one up....

Ok, I added lines where the ends of cab could be. Maybe not straight or anything, but you get the idea. If you can see the pencil marks...that's about where we are. I think we could shave off both sides on the buttons, leave about one inch to each side of the buttons and a few inches up top above the 1p, 2p and Shift key.

But I dunno.

bdsjake · « **Reply #7 on:** February 08, 2004, 02:37:15 pm »

My panel is about 27" wide, two player, buttons each, trackball, no problems. In fact, I am thinking about rebuilding the cab w/o the wings, and I believe everyting will fit withing 24" fine. really just personal taste, build a mockup and try it out.

mahuti · « **Reply #8 on:** February 08, 2004, 02:38:37 pm »

Many original arcade units were about 2 feet wide for 2 player. If you add in a 4 way stick, you would only need an extra foot at most. At any rate, unless you are using a trackball, I doubt there's going to be enough action with most game play that you would hit another stick, even if it was fairly close. People's hands tend to stay on the sticks and buttons.

FWIW, I would recommend getting a t-stick plus (or 2) so you can switch between 4 and 8 way, rather than having a dedicated stick.

Spaced Invader · « **Reply #9 on:** February 08, 2004, 02:47:11 pm »

Why did you put the player one stick on the right. I ask for two reasons...first, the stick is usually on the left on "real" games...and second, if it were on the left you could place the player one and player two setups closer together without undo interference with your center 4-way. I would also place the 4-way behind the player one and player two setup.

Just my thoughts...hope it helps.

Iori · « **Reply #10 on:** February 08, 2004, 03:04:12 pm »

Might also want to watch out about the buttons getting too close to the edge of the board too... Looks like they are really close, though that might just be the lines you drew in. I would go with a smaller cp, 4 feet is enormous...

Would also go with the joy on the left for both players, are you doing this because of a left handed player?

PacManess · « **Reply #11 on:** February 08, 2004, 03:31:13 pm »

Player 1 IS on the left, I might have said right, but i meant left.
I have the buttons on the left for a symetrical look, plus for some reason that just makes more sense for me.
We've already drilled the holes, my main concern now is how much I can shave off the sides and top.

I'm going to go play around with it a bit, let you know what happens!

Pete Harcoff · « **Reply #12 on:** February 08, 2004, 03:35:11 pm »

4 feet's definitely big. My own 2-player CP is pretty big at 39" wide for the top (36" for the base), but then again, I too wanted lots of elbow room. But at that width I'd have no problem adding an additional 4-way controller in the center with room to spare.

Here's a pic:

There's about 12" between the left buttons and the right joystick.

PacManess · « **Reply #13 on:** February 08, 2004, 03:52:04 pm »

Pete, that is a nice looking CP. How tall are the "legs" or base of your CP?
We're done drilling, just need to add legs, also, we need to attach things. I'll throw up a pic so you can see how screwed up it isn't.
BTW, I decided to leave it 48" long for PLENTY of elbow room (we gots some big boys). I might cut it to about 18" deep. Dunno yet.

Thanks for all your answers and help so far.

PacManess · « **Reply #14 on:** February 08, 2004, 03:57:48 pm »

Ok, here is a pic of it all cut out. I'm going to put some legs on it to keep it off the ground before it's put into a cab...
Anyway, here is our work. You can see my friend Mike's fingers and 'fro. Nice.

PacManess · « **Reply #15 on:** February 08, 2004, 03:59:49 pm »

Let me try this again, didn't like my file for some reason.

Pete Harcoff · « **Reply #16 on:** February 08, 2004, 04:18:05 pm »

Quote from: nosleepboy on February 08, 2004, 03:52:04 pm

Pete, that is a nice looking CP. How tall are the "legs" or base of your CP?

Not including the top of the CP (which is 1/2" thick), the base is 3.5" at the front and 5.25" at the back.

Gideon · « **Reply #17 on:** February 08, 2004, 04:39:00 pm »

Quote from: nosleepboy on February 08, 2004, 09:50:52 am

Anyway, 4 feet long ok you think?

Look at it this way: Will it fit through a standard size door???

Sylentwulf · « **Reply #18 on:** February 08, 2004, 04:59:04 pm »

That's a pretty big CP. I have one of the "four player" standard TMNT/Xmen/whatever CP's, and it's considered extra wide for a standard arcade machine. I've never measured it though.... brb........

37" wide. I could see MAYBE going up to 40" but... man. You DON'T want a four foot wide control panel. Look at it this way, my cabinet is only 29" wide. In the same space as that 4 foot CP, you could ALMOST fit 2 full size arcade cabinets with standard CP's.

paigeoliver · « **Reply #19 on:** February 09, 2004, 02:33:01 am »

I don't believe there has EVER been a real arcade game with a 4-foot wide control panel. Even dedicated 4-player units usually came in at under 3 feet.

You can do 2 player + 4-way + trackball on a 30"x6" panel with room to spare. (Hint, place the 4-way joystick right next to the player one 8-way, it is the most comfortable place for it, and allows it to use the same buttons as the 8-way, it might not be symmetrical, but it plays wonderfully, if you want to be symmetry then give the 2nd player a 4-way as well).

The trackball alone should give a decent enough spacing between the players. Extra room to the left of player one or to the right of player 2 is always entirely wasted. Anything there can be chopped right off. Most 2-player cabinet literally had less than 4 inches between the 2 sets of player controls. A trackball alone takes up more space than that. So if you have a trackball between player one and two, then you already have more elbow room than 90 percent of games ever made, anything else is bonus.

Putting each stick towards the middle with the first player having the buttons on his left is bad design. No game EVER came that way (in fact very few games even had right hand sticks, and no newer games had them). It isn't just bad design because it is incorrect (and incompatible with the muscle memory people might have from real games), but also because it creates the need for more elbow room. Your joystick arm moves around quite a bit, while your button arm tends to pretty much stay in one spot. Putting the 2 wildly moving arms next to each other is bad.

I would personly redo that panel before you spend any more time on it.

slicer_d · « **Reply #20 on:** February 09, 2004, 03:06:35 am »

Yeah listen to Paige the buttons on the left side is a just plain horrible idea (IMO at least). Unless you have lefties then dont even let the thought cross your mind at all.

Basically just look at Pete's and emulate that. Then stick a 4way in the middle and you will be just fine. Also I would say stick the 4 way up higher out of the way at least higher a couple inches higher than the regular joys (just enough so your arm doesnt lay accross the other buttons.

I'm most done constructing a cocktail (minus painting at the moment) and I had to do a decent amount of measuring to see how much CP room I would need. As far as I can tell 4 inches is more than enough for a joy with a lot of throw ala super/comp you could go with 5-6 to be safe but even at 4 I dont think you would hit the stick much.

Just look at the popular cp's like slikstik and go from them usually there is a reason they are popular.

Jakobud · « **Reply #21 on:** February 09, 2004, 03:22:32 am »

My CP is only 42" wide and its got 4 players and a 3" trackball....

JamesS · « **Reply #22 on:** February 09, 2004, 07:59:15 am »

My cabinet is 23 and 3/4 " long and 11 inches wide. But I have two 8-ways and one 4-way. I have 6 buttons per player and 4 buttons for coins and player start buttons.

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=15169

In this thread you can see my CP. My brother and I played 1943 together to test out the 8-ways and we had no problem with elbow room. And neither of us are what you would call skinny. Not fat, but a long ways away from skinny.

4 feet, my goodness, that is a long CP.

I put everything in the cabinet this weekend, minus the 21 inch monitor I plan to get for it. Just used my wifes 17 inch one. Got to 3rd WC in Super Basketball, so that 8-way kicks butt. With the keyboard I could barely get past USA.

tripppsk · « **Reply #23 on:** February 09, 2004, 12:37:29 pm »

Quote from: nosleepboy on February 08, 2004, 11:56:36 am

I think where the problem might lie with my CP is that there is space on both sides that I wanted to allow for "arm room".

Just how big are your arms??? That CP is almost the size of the bar that I built. The bottom line though is if your happy with it thats all that matters, but IMO you can definitley scale it down. Good luck.

Stingray · « **Reply #24 on:** February 09, 2004, 12:57:27 pm »

Two 8-ways - four buttons each, one four way, 23 inches wide:

http://www.stingrays.dk/arcade/cp03.jpg

Four feet is a frickin' monster.

-S

CCM · « **Reply #25 on:** February 09, 2004, 03:53:42 pm »

I have to agree with the replies so far... 4ft is BIG! I have a 2-player panel with 6-buttons each, a 4-way, spinner and trackball and it's only 36". My friends and I have had many hours of gaming on mine with no problems with elbow room.

Also, the buttons on the left for player one is just a bad idea. Anyone that has ever played a 'real' arcade game will not like playing yours.

PacManess · « **Reply #26 on:** February 09, 2004, 06:55:04 pm »

Thanks for all the replies to this topic.
I know that my 4 feet is a huge freaking CP, but I think that's what I want to go with. I like the size and the ability to sit ashtrays, keyboards, and elephants on it.
The reasons I went with left side buttons for Player 1 are:
A) Symmetry (I have issues)
B) For some reason, when I think about playing Arcade games, I think of hitting buttons with my left hand and using my stick with the right.

So, yeah, you know, good times.
I think for a first time CP this is a good effort. The 2nd one will be smaller, because I'll have a much better idea of elbow room and all that. Most of my friends are pretty big people, so I wanted to make sure there was enough room to compensate for that.

Now if I could only solve the programming problems I'm having with my board I'd be set.
I'll talk about those in another thread though.

Yes indeedy feed the needy.

Gideon · « **Reply #27 on:** February 09, 2004, 07:40:17 pm »

Hey, I'm impressed that you held your position. It's good to know what you want, is it not?

... But then again, why'd you start a topic about its size if you weren't intending on considering the replies?

PacManess · « **Reply #28 on:** February 09, 2004, 07:46:20 pm »

That's a good point. At first I WAS intending on making my CP smaller...I mean, c'mon, 4 feet is too big.
But then after talking with my friends and getting to "test" the finished product some, I decided to stick with the monstrosity.
Besides, it's nice to own something video game related that is bigger than an X-Box.

shmokes · « **Reply #29 on:** February 10, 2004, 12:29:10 am »

It's when you say things like that when I can't help but like you in spite of your humongous control panel.

paigeoliver · « **Reply #30 on:** February 10, 2004, 01:19:03 am »

nosleepboy.

Some games do play decently with the stick on the right hand side. But fighting games are not among them (or anything else with more than 2 buttons). Right handed players generally don't have the manual dexterity in their left hand to deal with that many buttons with that hand. Lefties however usually have little problems with the standard right handed setup because A: they are used to it from real games, and B: The world is set up for righties, and thus lefties tend to be better with their "off hand" than righties are.

Between my buddy and I we have several games with ambidextrous panels, and here is how we tend to play.

Kangaroo. I play right hand on the stick, Dave plays left.
Robocop, I play left, Dave plays right.
Do Run Run! I play left, Dave plays right.

I couldn't even imagine trying to play a 3,4 or 6 button game with the right hand on the stick though.

If you are really set on a right handed stick, then why not use a bit of that extra space and stick a stick on the other side of each button bank. That will allow each player to choose what they prefer, and still keep that symmetry.

JamesS · « **Reply #31 on:** February 10, 2004, 06:59:10 am »

You know when I was deciding on my CP I almost did the same thing. Because I was thinking the same thing. I was thinking I would not be good enough with my left hand and direction. Well I was wrong, I have been kicking butt with that 8-way on my left hand in games like Super Basketball.

I do use the my right hand for 4 way games and one button for games like DK.

PacManess · « **Reply #32 on:** February 10, 2004, 07:18:05 am »

Well, with the way things are going it might just be a moot point anyway.
I downloaded the "old" Ultimarc IPac setup utility. Whenever I tried to program a key, it would appear as "None" on the program. All of the buttons and stick directions responded, they just read none.
I tried to use the jumper on the "Mame" setting to see if it would work, and I got zero response from my controls after that. Then I gave up, because I have to be at work again this morning at 8 am.
Oi vey.

paigeoliver · « **Reply #33 on:** February 10, 2004, 07:48:19 am »

I love super basketball! That game also tends to be one of the cheapest working boardsets around.

The general deal about why certain things play better in certain hands is this.

If fine EXACT control of the directions is more important than the buttons, then the game plays better with the right hand on that control. Which is why games like Pac-Man, Kangaroo, and almost all analog games play best with the right hand on the stick.

But if the exactness of button presses is more important, then the game plays better with the left hand on the stick (Galaga, Moon Patrol, any fighting game, most all beat em ups and side scrollers).

Of course if your left hand is well trained then you will usually do equally well using it for precision games (I switched over to playing Pac-Man with my left hand a while back, and have noticed no change in scores, although I still play Nibbler with my right hand).

JamesS · « **Reply #34 on:** February 10, 2004, 08:47:19 am »

Nosleep get in touch with Ultimarc. Everyone of these guys, KeyWiz, Ultimarc they are very supportive of their products. So send him an email or post a message about the Ipac problem and within an hour or two you will have a response I bet.

Paige, I used to could play Superbasketball for hours on end, only got an hour in yesterday before the 3 WC beat me. So I need to work on my skills a little bit I reckon.

Stingray · « **Reply #35 on:** February 10, 2004, 10:21:41 am »

Quote from: nosleepboy on February 09, 2004, 06:55:04 pm

B) For some reason, when I think about playing Arcade games, I think of hitting buttons with my left hand and using my stick with the right.

Ditto. I built my panel with the sticks on the right and the buttons on the left. It's your cab, build it to suit your taste. I still say four feet is frickin' huge, but you won me over with your poke at the x-box.

Quote from: paigeoliver on February 10, 2004, 01:19:03 am

Right handed players generally don't have the manual dexterity in their left hand to deal with that many buttons with that hand.

I guess I must be some kind of abberation. I'm right handed, and I don't have a problem jabbing at four buttons with my left hand. I do, however, have a problem operating the stick in any game with my left hand. To each his own.

-S

JamesS · « **Reply #36 on:** February 10, 2004, 11:09:17 am »

Really Stingray that is wierd.

I thought I would have a problem as well like I said. But I guess all of those years of having Joystick right must have gotten me past the point of it feeling wierd or something.

To each their own I say.

PacManess · « **Reply #37 on:** February 10, 2004, 07:01:53 pm »

Like I said, the whole having the buttons on the left thing seems natural to me. I think it might be from using the keyboard while playing games...you know, left control and left alt for your main two buttons (or Punch and Kick as I like to call them for Wrestlefest)...so I dunno.
I put up a message at Ultimarc's website...but I'm seriously thinking of just going ahead and biting the bullet and buying a KeyWiz.
I'm going to post a KeyWiz question now...good times.

Pete Harcoff · « **Reply #38 on:** February 10, 2004, 07:06:03 pm »

I like the KeyWiz. I debated between that and the I-Pac, but the keywiz has more inputs (32 compared to 28) and is cheaper ($35 for the KeyWiz MAX compared to $39 for the I-Pac).

tonyarcade · « **Reply #39 on:** February 11, 2004, 11:43:40 am »

Didn't read all the replys so forgive me...

But have you considered putting the 4 way next to the 1st player joystick?

I've seen that done for space...

i.e. O O O

it's placed just close enough to make using 1p buttons easy, but just enough room not to get in way of joystick use...

I wish I had pic

-Tony


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