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Author Topic: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions  (Read 627 times)

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Sublevel

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Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« on: November 05, 2018, 04:23:34 am »
In most of the games i've tried i get this annoying moire effect when the screen is scrolling vertically (or horizontally when i have the monitor in horzontal position). I also get this ringing effect on the edge of sprites/backgrounds like the picture is too sharp. However, in games like Ketsui and Espagaluda which both run at 448x224 @ 59.17Hz i do not get the moire effect. How come? Has it something to do with integer scaling?

Please see attached logs. In ESP Ra.De. i get the moire effect but not in Ketsui.

My setup looks like this:
Dedicated Groovymame computer (Win7, Radeon 5450) inside an New Astro City > VGA > JPAC > JAMMA connector > Nanao MS929 monitor rotated vertically

Things i've already tried:

Different presets/monitor settings in VMMAKER
Replace VGA cables
Replace video card
Replace computer PSU
Replace step-down converter for the NAC
Moving cables around inside the NAC
Adjusting pots on the Nanao monitor (adjusting focus somewhat hides the moire)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 03:28:37 am by Sublevel »

Calamity

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2018, 05:01:48 am »
Just in case, try with normal resolutions instead of super resolutions. E.g. add 320x240@60 to the list of super resolutions, and generate and install the list of modes, then launch esprade.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2018, 05:13:14 am »
Thanks Calamity, will try that when i get home tonight. But if i remember correctly, in the past i've tried installing normal resolutions instead of super resolutions with the same moire effect in game. However, i did notice the moire effect was gone when using normal resolutions and checking stuff in ArcadeOSD, but when starting Groovymame the moire was back again.

Calamity

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2018, 05:27:25 am »
In your logs, I can see this error:

Direct3D: Unable to find D3DXCreateEffectFromFileW

I don't know if it could have any relation to the issue. I see this very often in users' logs. I'm not sure if it's caused by not having the proper DirectX distributables or by a mismatch between GM's exectuble and the rest of files in its folder. I recommend to get the full package from my Google drive site.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2018, 07:14:16 am »
In your logs, I can see this error:

Direct3D: Unable to find D3DXCreateEffectFromFileW

I don't know if it could have any relation to the issue. I see this very often in users' logs. I'm not sure if it's caused by not having the proper DirectX distributables or by a mismatch between GM's exectuble and the rest of files in its folder. I recommend to get the full package from my Google drive site.

I'm getting this on the only machine I've updated to 203, and I'm using the full package (had to recreated my mame.ini  :lol). I can't confirm whether I have correct DirectX or not, it's Windows 7 Home Premium 64bit. I'm having performance/sync issues with the machine too so would like to resolve it and see if that fixes them
Please don't PM me with support questions. Ask in public so everyone can learn!

krick

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2018, 09:14:58 am »
Hantarex Polo 15KHz
Sapphire Radeon HD 7750 2GB (GCN)
GroovyMAME 0.197.017h_d3d9ex
CRT Emudriver & CRT Tools 2.0 beta 13 (Crimson 16.2.1 for GCN cards)
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Intel Core i7-4790K @ 4.8GHz
ASUS Z87M-PLUS Motherboard

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2018, 04:45:48 pm »
Thanks, that fixed the message but not the problem, which I'll follow up in another thread.
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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2018, 03:17:21 am »
Tried normal resolutions and installed the Full DirectX9 package and i still got the moire effect in game. The monitor chassis recently got recapped and the image quality is sharp as hell complete with ringing around sprite edges. When i defocus the monitor with the focus pot (or using bilinear filtering in mame) the moire/ringing is somewhat reduced, but then i also get convergence issues so that solution is a no go. Could it be that this monitor combined with JPAC/VGA input is just too sharp for it's own good? And that the resolution for Ketsui (448x224) somehow comes out as slightly blurrier than Esprade (240x320) which eliminates the moire effect? Just a wild guess.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 03:24:07 am by Sublevel »

Calamity

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2018, 03:24:36 am »
You'd better post some pictures of your real screen (and probably delete that one of a NEC monitor on your first post that's quite misleading).

Is the ringing around the sprite edges something really all around the sprites or just on the right side, like a shadow?
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2018, 03:35:44 am »
I will take some pictures and post later today. If i remember correctly it's all around the sprites, not like a shadow effect.

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2018, 04:21:21 am »
Is the ringing around the sprite edges something really all around the sprites or just on the right side, like a shadow?

Sorry to threadjack but I have the exact issue you described with a TV that I recently RGB-modded (right-side shadow that trails any sudden change of contrast or color).

Interested to hear your theory if you had one...

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2018, 04:43:19 am »
Interested to hear your theory if you had one...

My Polostar did this too, and it sucked for that. It was fixable to some extent adjusting the contrast down (or maybe the brighness?). It probably has some simple explanation from an electronics point of view, for some reason it can't resolve those sudden changes in the signal.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2018, 06:46:41 am »
Oh by the way, does "filter 1" add any input lag to Groovymame?

Calamity

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2018, 07:19:50 am »
It doesn't add lag, but it degrades the image.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2018, 04:12:20 pm »
Please see attached pictures. The ArcadeOSD one shows the moire effect and the rest the ringing on pixel edges.

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2018, 04:19:47 pm »
I see. Thanks for the pics.

Have you tried calibrating the contrast?
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2018, 09:08:33 am »
Yes, and to no avail. It should also be said that my cab came directly from japan complete with the original power supply and ISO transformer still connected. I haven't rerouted any cables myself so i don't really know if everything is hooked up correctly regarding grounding etc.

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2018, 09:57:35 am »
I was going to suggest that: maybe a grounding or degauss issue? Is there any degauss switch in the cabinet?

Sometimes magnetized stains are related to the angle between the cabinet and north and just rotating the cabinet improves a lot.

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2018, 04:47:18 am »
I played around with the cab this weekend and checked the grounding. I have no idea how grounding should be wired in this cab but there are a lot of green cables going from the back (inside) of the cab to different spots like the control panel, coin door etc. I moved them around a bit but didn't notice a difference. But if it was a grounding issue, shouldn't all games be affected? I want to point out that i only get this moire effect, no other noise or interference at all.

I also e-mailed Andy regarding the JPAC to hear if he had any idea and got this response: "It would normally be caused by a difference between the pitch of the resolution and the dot pitch of the CRT. The first thing to check is that the resolution is correct and matching the game. If it is, it must be the CRT. So the only way to overcome this would be to de-focus the monitor slightly or mess around with the convergence ring magnets although the latter is a risky approach."

So i tried messing around with the dot clock setting in ArcadeOSD and i can in fact "move" the moire around a bit by doing so, but it doesn't get rid of it. Any ideas how i should approach this further? Or should i just settle with defocusing the picture?

Thanks again all  :)

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2018, 05:39:57 am »
What version of CRT_EmuDriver are you using?

(I think the ringing is a monitor setup problem, but having just spent lots of time finding a problem with my 5450 and the Crimson driver I figure it's worth asking)
Please don't PM me with support questions. Ask in public so everyone can learn!

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2018, 06:02:09 am »
Ok, I've been thinking of your issue and I agree with Andy's diagnosis. Your CRT is just too sharp.

Now, you provided a clue that may lead us to a software fix. When you said Ketsui does not show the issue, I didn't notice that 448 scales on 2560 by a fractional factor, while Espagaluda is 320 pixels wide, that scales by a perfect integer factor of 8.

So it's probably fractional scaling what provides the slight blur you need to get rid of the interference pattern.

If that is true, there's something you could test. Instead of 2560x, use 2600x for all your super resolutions. Edit the user_super.ini file and replace all 2560 values by 2600. Then create and install the modes again.

I suggested 2600 because it's not a multiple of either 256, 264, 288, 320, 400, etc, so fractional scaling will be applied on the horizontal axis.

Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 05:16:34 am »
Thanks for the suggestion Calamity, but sadly that didn't work. I still get the moire effect when installning 2600x*** modes. I also tried switching over to latest release of Catalyast 12.6 and there is no difference.

I've noticed that all vertical games with a resolution higher than 320x*** is free from this issue. I tried a game with a res of 384x240 (free from moire), please see attached log if that's in any way helpful. I noticed in the log a bit further down "orientation: normal". Shouldn't that be "rotate_r" as i have my monitor rotated vertically? Also, shouldn't vertical resolutions be listed as e.g. 240*384?

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 05:44:25 am »
Quote
Shouldn't that be "rotate_r" as i have my monitor rotated vertically? Also, shouldn't vertical resolutions be listed as e.g. 240*384?

No, GM is right there. Since you are using the rotate_r preset, "vertical" resolutions are turned into "horizontal" resolutions, so 384x240 is correct.

I'll try to think something else. Meanwhile, consider installing the DirectX package linked by Krick above, so you get rid of the error message at least.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 08:29:37 am »
What about playing a bit with the screen size (not resolution)? You will get black bars/ overscan, however you may find something balanced between screen size and moire effect.

Or even adjusting the geometry pots (Pinch Cushion, etc) of the monitor or adding a small amount of divergence to one of the colors may help.

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 01:42:54 pm »
Just to potentially add more data to help solve this issue, I have the same problem.   Ketsui and any game running at its resolution is perfect, but the wavy moire effect is present elsewhere.   I've tried everything from hardware and software swaps, cable replacements, and monitor adjustments with no improvement.

I can upload my logs later tonight, but to test, I did comparisons with a few actual PCBs which ran perfectly without the issue, while the GM versions had the disturbance.   The PCBs I tested were Donpachi and Strikers 1945.   The monitor is a Nanao MS8 29 FTB rotated vertically in an Egret 29.

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #25 on: Today at 03:35:41 am »
Quote
Shouldn't that be "rotate_r" as i have my monitor rotated vertically? Also, shouldn't vertical resolutions be listed as e.g. 240*384?

No, GM is right there. Since you are using the rotate_r preset, "vertical" resolutions are turned into "horizontal" resolutions, so 384x240 is correct.

I'll try to think something else. Meanwhile, consider installing the DirectX package linked by Krick above, so you get rid of the error message at least.
I did install the DirectX package but i guess i still get the error message. I extracted the files and ran the setup file in the main folder.

What about playing a bit with the screen size (not resolution)? You will get black bars/ overscan, however you may find something balanced between screen size and moire effect.

Or even adjusting the geometry pots (Pinch Cushion, etc) of the monitor or adding a small amount of divergence to one of the colors may help.
If i stretch the image vertically a lot by using the pots, the moire is somewhat reduced. But i have to stretch it so much it defeats the purpose. Minimizing the image does not help.

Just to potentially add more data to help solve this issue, I have the same problem.   Ketsui and any game running at its resolution is perfect, but the wavy moire effect is present elsewhere.   I've tried everything from hardware and software swaps, cable replacements, and monitor adjustments with no improvement.

I can upload my logs later tonight, but to test, I did comparisons with a few actual PCBs which ran perfectly without the issue, while the GM versions had the disturbance.   The PCBs I tested were Donpachi and Strikers 1945.   The monitor is a Nanao MS8 29 FTB rotated vertically in an Egret 29.
Sorry to hear you also got this problem. Please do upload your logs, thanks  :)

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #26 on: Today at 03:40:26 am »
I'd say what Pakoman meant was to use the software stretching options in MAME's internal ui, namely "Screen Horiz Stretch" under the "Slider Controls" menu.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #27 on: Today at 04:44:49 am »
Can you try a different monitor ?

Also can't aging caps or flyback cause all kinds of weird issues that start showing with a select number of source signals and then with time expand to all ?

I've had a couple of old sets that would start acting only with certain sources before going all senile.

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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #28 on: Today at 07:01:39 am »
I know you said you've tried them, but logs where you are using normal resolutions would be good.

I can understand why you *might* get moire with super resolutions (integer or fractional scaled), however it's baffling that it's occurring with normal resolutions.

Pics to accompany logs too please.
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Re: Moire effect / wavy lines on some resolutions
« Reply #29 on: Today at 09:10:28 am »
I'd say what Pakoman meant was to use the software stretching options in MAME's internal ui, namely "Screen Horiz Stretch" under the "Slider Controls" menu.

Well, I meant the pots in the monitor to avoid distorted scaling, but both options could do. And specially those that control the curvature of the screen (pinch cushion, pillow cushion...).

I remember from the times I used to collect jamma boards that Mame looked way darker than the same jamma board in the same arcade cabinet and gamma needed to be adjusted in Mame. That was a few years ago (AdvanceMame 0.106 dos IIRC, before old good Groovymame times :)), so I don't know if Mame improved in that regard nowadays. Maybe not the case, however, the darker the colours the more likely the moire effect to appear, the brighter and the more they "bleed" the more they hide moire effects, chequered patterns, sharp pixels, etc.

Could you just check the brightness levels in both Mame and jamma are the same?  Maybe the jamma board with darker colours also produces moire patterns...

  
 

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