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Author Topic: autoboot verbose script ?  (Read 869 times)

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schmerzkaufen

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autoboot verbose script ?
« on: October 17, 2018, 03:54:19 am »
Would it be possible to make it so GM automatically produces a log (with a little delay) every time you play a game ?

I don't fully understand what the MAME documentation says about the degugging and scripting options, but if we could activate a script somewhere (mame.ini? plugin?) to do so that would be nice, no need to go and get the keyboard and console every time you want a log.

Well, maybe that would flood the main folder with logs if you forget to turn it off but heh.

Paradroid

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2018, 04:34:56 pm »
Would it be possible to make it so GM automatically produces a log (with a little delay) every time you play a game ?

How are you launching MAME? If you're using a front end (e.g. Attract-Mode, Mala, et al), it's easy: just add the relevant switches to the command line argument.

I have done this kind of thing in Mala before (generate a 5 minute .wav file for every game launched in order to apply ReplayGain settings to each game's .ini).

Once I was done, I removed the switches and went back to launching the game normally.
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krick

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2018, 11:31:53 pm »
If you want an easy way to create a log file without manually opening a command prompt, create a new blank file in your groovymame folder named something like mamelog.bat and paste this into the file...

Code: [Select]
set GAME_NAME=pong
set SECONDS_TO_RUN=60
set MAME_NAME=mame64.exe
%MAME_NAME% -v -str %SECONDS_TO_RUN% %GAME_NAME% > %GAME_NAME%.txt


To get a log for a different game, edit the GAME_NAME, save, and then double-click the mamelog.bat file.
You can also adjust the SECONDS_TO_RUN to something shorter if you like.
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schmerzkaufen

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2018, 02:23:04 am »
@paradroid: hadn't thought of that but I'd rather keep using the raw thing

@krick: ah of course a .bat makes it quicker, thanks!

What gave me the idea that it could be automated is the documentation, if you read it apparently we could write a script file name in the mame.ini under CORE DEBUGGING OPTIONS,
but it seems that it has to be a LUA plugin...
https://docs.mamedev.org/commandline/commandline-all.html

Calamity

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2018, 03:51:51 am »
The issue preventing logs from being easily enabled from MAME's ui is that they depend on a console redirection ">" rather than an option. Of course MAME could be modified so that logging is always sent to a file but that goes beyond the modifications I'd like to do. Forcing logs always enabled may degrade performance too.

Future evolution of GM might go in the direction of splitting Switchres logging from MAME's infrastructure. That would make things easier to the user, although we'd miss vital information about how Switchres interacts with other parts of the emulator.

For me, and despite your known hatred, it is a very good thing that users are forced to use command line, as this takes the frontend out of the equation. Users beloved frontends are an objective barrier to learning GM's operation, and the cause of most issues in their resolution to take over the system in order to be awesome.

(I also have a cabinet and I often feel too lazy to plug the keyboard in)
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

schmerzkaufen

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2018, 08:01:40 am »
Forcing logs always enabled may degrade performance too.
Yeah I can imagine, but I was not seriously thinking about something always on, just a more immediate simple way to launch a game with log-making once when you need, and that does not imply command line.
A .bat isn't bad at all a compromise IMO, while a lot of people don't know how to use command line at all, much more are familiar with editing files with notepad already.

Future evolution of GM might go in the direction of splitting Switchres logging from MAME's infrastructure. That would make things easier to the user, although we'd miss vital information about how Switchres interacts with other parts of the emulator.
Ugh, that would be bad  :-[

For me, and despite your known hatred, it is a very good thing that users are forced to use command line, as this takes the frontend out of the equation. Users beloved frontends are an objective barrier to learning GM's operation, and the cause of most issues in their resolution to take over the system in order to be awesome.

(I also have a cabinet and I often feel too lazy to plug the keyboard in)

As I must have mentioned somewhere, you should look at things from various perspectives, users while having interest in the same things like smooth scrollings, lag reduction, proper refresh rates etc, definitely don't all come from the same background.

I see at least 5 user levels;
- those who will come for the benefits of d3d9ex reduced lag by default, and the 'lcd' monitor setting
- those who will use frame_delay, vsync_offset, and sync_refresh_tolerance on top of that
- those who only have an nVidia gpu, or an AMD but not emudrivers compatible (or not willing to change drivers or buy a new gpu for their own reasons) but still willing to experience closer-to-real refresh speeds on their setup with the static method, or simply as a first step to pre-test their setup for the next level
- those who will go for the full install and experience but for an LCD they know supports it, doing all the steps to exploit the full possibilities GM+emudrivers offer there
- those who will do the same but with a complete CRT setup, with the additional hardare-related work and specifics

I have little doubt that at least the fisrt two levels concern users with limited computer-literacy and the comfortable majority of retro arcades and consoles crowd.
The first of them are the people who have been going to RA, complained that GM didn't work, couldn't produce logs and gave up around there saying GM is too complicated, they have only ever known windows and gui's with mouse and buttons, practically all popular emulators being configurable and useable this way, like for 20 years.
The second got used at some point to dig a bit deeper and get further flexibility and results from editing ini files for instance, though they are not sensibly more computer-literate than the former (this is where I stood until recently)

The third would be an evolution of the second. People who want better and are ready to go the extra mile, though not the extra 10 miles, because they don't want to have to build a dedicated setup nor modify it too much since it's their everyday all-purpose computer anyway. Or they just want to try their setup including the display (flat panel in this case) to get a taste and see if they can go the next level with what they have.
They are ready to do more manipulation of files and even a degree of command line use if they have to, even if that will be a bit tough at times, but they are not much more computer-literate than the first two.

The fourth is the further step that requires to be yet a bit more prepared because there will be additional steps that include changing drivers in a 'more than clicking a button as usual' fashion, and additional software to use with also more text command-input style work.
(this is where I struggled and failed the last time, and will try again after I'm done exploring level 3)

Fifth is for an already confirmed demographics, who either came the long way accumulating experience over YEARS, or for whom this stuff is natural since they come from the world of tech wether by education/trade or having grown since they were kids/teens in that environment.
(definitely not people like me, nor the majority of the population, not even that which has grown gaming only with arcades and consoles, not computers)

The gap between the first 4 and the 5th is most often considerable, because in the latter you have developers, technicians, engineers, long-time learning hobbyists, basically significantly more knowledgeable power users who - especially for the most confirmed of the like of course devs, engineers and experienced power-geeks - don't think and act by the same logic as all the fist four.
It's two different dimensions, the one that uses and plays and the one that mostly makes, this is how things have always been and will always be.

It's a pipe dream, an illusion, to imagine that the bulk, the large majority the first 4 represent, can and will ever achieve and adopt the same level of skills, thinking, habits and logic as the last, 5th one, and even more irrealistic to think that they can be forced into playing with the same rules as that upper-floor minority.
This has apparently been on MAMEdev's mind for quite a while with changes in policy, and actions have been taken that complexify and complicate MAME's use, up to purposedly forbidding some things that were possible before and at times without proposing workable alternatives.
I think if they let it all out MAME wouldn't even have an UI anymore at all, barely any configurable options, and everything would have to be done via comand line.
That, would be slamming the door at the face the the immense majority of users, and sink MAME into ultra-select niche oblivion.
Even the little changes they've made in recent years have had a SCREAMING consequence: the whorish RA and the likes exploding popularity, at the expense of MAME's well-being.

One thing I'm certain of, is that 5th-level people don't fully realize what's life like below them, they don't fully know what's their computer and gaming reality, and assume it's wrong and the lower floors should adopt their logic, not realizing how large the gap is, nor what the consequences of tring to force them into jumping that ravine mean.

Of what concerns GM then, I don't think it's a problem to demand a certain level of skills and effort proportionally to the level of use and results people expect, tht's normal after all the more you want the more complicated it is, but the lower the user level the easier things must be, as far as it's reasonably possible to make them so.
For the sake of the low-skilled complete beginners you have worked and technically achived that, save for the remaining command line log production part which is still a sticking point for about the first two levels.
What I'm saying to you Calamity is; IF your idea is to try - forcefully so - to change common practice for ALL users to typical advanced/5th level ones, then you will KILL GroovyMAME's accessibility to droves of people, whether they're already introduced to GM or potential newcomers.
Where I am for instance at the moment I can manage making logs or a fresh mame.ini, but not much more, if I was given no choice but to switch to full command line operation in the future, I would drop GM completely.
See for instance at the end of the month with 0.203 MAME's UI will finally be useable with the specific .ini's, coupled with the recent improvements and fixes you've made to GM, this will finally be the MAME I've been expecting for I don't even remember how many years, and the one you can recommend everyone and write about no matter his level because everything that matters will work, and I plan to do a lot of testing on different setups from there.
Don't walk the same dreadful path MAMEdev seems to want to walk everyone, most people know only simple Windows, UIs/frontends, menus and convenient understandable options, mouse buttons, usb controllers, consoles and arcade games, and in our era: flat panels, you can't reverse that. If you forcefully introduce more command line steps for them; you kick them out and hurt GM.

(note: well, I don't know your plans, it's your creation after all, maybe you'd like better if it was harder to use and therefore more niche with less n00bs around. which would be your legitimate choice since it's your time and work. but that would be a sad development imho)

And to conclude, well, that little .BAT again is a fine compromise IMHO, could it be possible to add it to the GM build in the future?
(maybe along with a similar-named text file telling simply where to edit the name and that's it. OR simply no bat but instructions on how to make one in the manual)
Because we know how many times it would have helped to have something like that, I've met enough cases of newcomers who would have been happy to be 1st or 2nd level users but quit at that point.

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2018, 09:52:45 am »
Any time you try and make something idiot proof you just find a new class of idiot.

I'd default GM off so it had to be enabled in mame.ini. Heck, default logging/verbose on too.
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schmerzkaufen

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2018, 10:49:26 am »
Well maybe because there are idiots, yes, and also people who only know what they've learned from their background.
I know nothing of text-based operation and find it horribly unpractical and counterintuitive, because I'm from the WIMP (windows icons menus and pointers) generation and never had to deal with the former, never studied nor worked in a field requiring better computer knowledge.
Heck I'm not comfortable with touch-based everything and I see an increasing number of people mainly younger using only that now and sucking at WIMP.
Do I think they're idiots? No, because I understand that not everyone learns the same things and technology moves on, like text-based is history, WIMP is slowly becoming obsolated. Also, apparently, having never been a computer savvy-enough guy, I've also never acquired the typical inability to understand that, that seems to come with the knowledge (in other words I've never reached high enough a level that I can afford to look down on others and think 'f them')

Calamity

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2018, 11:57:17 am »
I could agree with most of the stuff you said, except the part where you suggest I might secretly enjoy making GM obscure.

However you're very wrong in one thing. Command-line is not an archaism, but a powerful feature that most modern software lacks. Command-line is not the lack of a GUI as you seem to suggest, it is complementary. Command-line support is what makes possible to automate things. Believe it or not, command-line is the most direct path to functionality. By the way, postmodern design guides seem to confuse usability with hiding the relevant functionality.

If I owned MAME's code, logs wouldn't be produced that way. But I'm forced to surf on MAME's changing code, and I need to keep things simple or I'd just sink. Please don't take GM for granted. GM's goal is on the antipodes of RA's. RA wants to gobble up the whole emulation world behind its brand. GM's aim would be dissolving in MAME and disappearing as soon as possible, so its existence as a separate thing represents my failure on this purpose.

I could add a feature to VMMaker that allows launching GM's games. This is a something I've been wanting to do, as it would help bringing the modelines back to VMMaker and Arcade OSD. As a bonus, it could easily collect a log.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

schmerzkaufen

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2018, 01:18:21 pm »
I could agree with most of the stuff you said, except the part where you suggest I might secretly enjoy making GM obscure.

However you're very wrong in one thing. Command-line is not an archaism, but a powerful feature that most modern software lacks. Command-line is not the lack of a GUI as you seem to suggest, it is complementary. Command-line support is what makes possible to automate things. Believe it or not, command-line is the most direct path to functionality. By the way, postmodern design guides seem to confuse usability with hiding the relevant functionality.

Ha ha no, no suspicion of a hidden agenda lol. I'm only desperately trying to highlight at maximum density - incoming redundancy - how much command line is alien and bothersome to people like me, and that we are a lot. You were giving a vibe that you wanted to do something to bring people to use it and more so, and that triggered my alarm because I know for sure that would be a mistake at least in regards to where n00bs and poor-skilled users still-getting-used-to-basics stand.
Certainly I've heard before people praising command line use in similar terms as yours, but guess what? they were all people at your level of computer understanding and skills, developers, or at the very least not too far away from solid advanced computer literacy.
It's really important no matter what they know and think about it (command line) that developers understand this; it may be as a fact the more powerful way, but it's not for the masses, not at all.
For us it's like having to make do with neolithic tools and techniques (ok sumerian if you want since writing is involved), in that fashion for us it is archaic, it relates to far-away memories of when computers didn't have a WIMP GUI and commands had to be learned by heart and input the right way following strict rules, all that we common lambda users have been achieving easily for decades with a few clicks on the mouse (yes from our perspective that is the case)
I swear, I'm saying this for the general but to whoever developing software; lose all hope to make someone at my common level and with that computer 'culture' who's never known something like command line, ever adopt it as a main or major means to control his computer or a particular program.
At homeopatic doses it's bearable but that's it.
Sorry but it's reality. Oh of course some might adapt to it fully without issues, every profile exists, but they're ones who will still be only a few drops in the ocean of those who will reject.

If I owned MAME's code, logs wouldn't be produced that way. But I'm forced to surf on MAME's changing code, and I need to keep things simple or I'd just sink. Please don't take GM for granted. GM's goal is on the antipodes of RA's. RA wants to gobble up the whole emulation world behind its brand. GM's aim would be dissolving in MAME and disappearing as soon as possible, so its existence as a separate thing represents my failure on this purpose.

Oh don't worry I know about the goal and that some day there won't be a need for a separate build. In fact I follow mainline MAME's evolution as closely as GM's.
And I know well GM and mainline are not walking the same path as RA of course, otherwise I wouldn't be there bothering fine people, at the moment I must be the most anal and annoying MAME supporter precisely because I really want to see that happen  :laugh: (more of your improvements integrated to mainline and therefore making it ever better, 'ganbatte calamity sensei' goes without saying)

I could add a feature to VMMaker that allows launching GM's games. This is a something I've been wanting to do, as it would help bringing the modelines back to VMMaker and Arcade OSD. As a bonus, it could easily collect a log.

Though I don't get all the implications such a change would mean yet, it's good if it makes things smoother of course, but please remember what I've said about the introductory low-levels of GM adoption; if that means asking the people at these early levels/stages to use VMMaker too like the more advanced users should, well, remember this is the part where I crashed miserably the last time.  ;D :shame:
(I'll get over it the next time certainly, but unlike them I have already set myself a higher goal i.e stage 4)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 01:22:04 pm by schmerzkaufen »

Recapnation

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2018, 02:23:34 pm »
For starters, it would mean VMM becomes GM's official "GUI" and the main implication of it is that accessibility reaches a whole new level (since there're many who aren't interested in learning or installing external GUIs nor feel comfortable with command-line either). But as good as it sounds (especially if it included some little-demanding features such as creation of game lists and whatnot), I honestly think it'd be more workload for Calamity with every release and I don't see him getting too much satisfaction out of it.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 03:52:16 pm by Recapnation »

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2018, 08:08:51 pm »
I'm only desperately trying to highlight at maximum density - incoming redundancy - how much command line is alien and bothersome to people like me, and that we are a lot.

In my experience, having worked as a volunteer beta tester for Cakewalk software (synth and sampling plugins) and now as system analysts for a large gold mining company, I have observed that, across the board, developers and engineers unanimously hate producing two things: documentation and GUIs.

Both are extremely time consuming. In the case of documentation, it's very hard to properly maintain (even some of our largest vendors struggle with it) if the software is still in development. In the case of GUIs, the more complex your product, the more complex the task of developing GUI can be (even if the resulting GUI is simple).

Then, on top of all that, both items are so subjective! E.g. "can you make a video instead of printed manual?", "can you make the GUI blue, I don't like grey!"

The beauty of command line functionality is that the developer of the emulator can leave the GUI stuff up to others (this has mostly been the case in the 20 years I've been following MAME for). Command line interaction is actually the end-user's friend (even if they don't understand it) as it is what allows all the disparate emulators, tools and front-ends to communicate with each other. Without this key inter-operable feature we wouldn't have the amazing range of choices available to us. There are other ways to pass data between applications but you realise that plain text (i.e. command line, XML, etc.) are a godsend the moment you first try to create shortcuts, batch files, automation, front-ends, etc. yourself. Often the data is self-documenting and you don't need to understand the innards of the application to be able to control it using commands.

Really, basic command line usage can be picked up with a couple of hours of reading and trial and error. There are plenty of good (and free) guides online. If you're already familiar with how MAME .ini files work, it's even easier to see the connection.

So, in summary, my view is that the command line is actually the great enabler: if somebody wanted to write a GroovyMAME specific front-end, they could start today! No need to sign an NDA, de-compile, hack, beg for source code, or whatever as everything can be driven through the command line.

Really, if somebody had the desire and time, an Attract-Mode layout that had the ability to switch GroovyMAME options and adjust monitor specs would be the way. It's cross platform and has excellent scripting abilities and very nice visual tools.
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schmerzkaufen

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2018, 05:25:16 am »
Sorry, I strongly disagree with your point of view, but I won't elaborate more on the topic because I think it's a lost cause.

I'll just say this in regards to MAME in general (not really GM and Calamity as they are in my eyes exceptions as long as they are around): the developers perception or should I say interpretation of reality, their usual way of thinking or ideology even when you listen to some, and the computer/engineers literates-enough culture around them (which is practically all that's left around MAME since the lambda users mass exodus towards retro gamers-centric things like RA is almost complete) is the wrong one at this point in history and will be the cause of the disappearance of MAME into ultra-niche oblivion. For people it will certainly increasingly be mentioned as a 'core' in the future, just one among others, disregarding development and versions they'll take only what they need and nothing else no matter the grandeur of its past history. You can say it is already the case in fact but without a doubt it'll go even further.

Personally I only expect the next GM as for me an important stage of achievement will have been reached at that point, in several aspects something I've been waiting for since I've first known MAME in the year 2000 or 2001 iirc.
Then other things I think could be improved in both MAME and GM will or will not concretize in the future.
In any case I will continue to update my builds (at least as long as what I consider important doesn't get broken), follow development and report bugs and issues if I find any. I've even ordered a new AMD gpu since my current one is showing possible signs of imminent death.
But at the same time as much as I am happy of what's coming I am also very pessimistic.

Calamity

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2018, 08:03:34 am »
the developers perception or should I say interpretation of reality [...] is the wrong one at this point in history

Well, this could be true or not. This point in history could be the millennials pride era you suggest but there could also be a big war around the corner.

In part, you seem to miss the motivations behind most of us enrolling in these unpayed projects. We're not trying to deliver a great and popular "product". We take shelter in these projects in order to materialize the idea of perfection and freedom that we can't express in our real jobs where we are whores most of the time. I really like and find it amusing when you seem to envision me as a computer geek in a cubicle, if only you knew the sort of people I have to deal with daily.

I'm not saying that I won't listen to you or anyone suggesting improvements.

I share your view about MAME being set aside by RA. It's the same with GroovyMAME being replaced by the Raspberry Pi developments, it's already happening. The decline period of things has a special appeal to me. It's always the same pattern: most of the time a technology is replaced by a worse one, that gets more popular. The same rule applies to markets and democracies.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 08:05:25 am by Calamity »
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

schmerzkaufen

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2018, 04:40:12 pm »
Well, this could be true or not. This point in history could be the millennials pride era you suggest but there could also be a big war around the corner.
Sorry I'm not sure what you meant with that, but for what I had in mind it's not a matter of being X, Y or Z generation, but the kind of relationship to computer tech people have. Real geeks were alway few before and after the internet explosion, and still today, even if the proportion of people using computer-and networking techs has considerably increased. So within the eras of the history of computing it's almost a constant, with the gap in knowledge and skills still expanding, but blame Microsoft, Apple, Google who did everything in their power so that people only click buttons, and now even wihout a keyboard and mouse.

In part, you seem to miss the motivations behind most of us enrolling in these unpayed projects. We're not trying to deliver a great and popular "product". We take shelter in these projects in order to materialize the idea of perfection and freedom that we can't express in our real jobs where we are whores most of the time. I really like and find it amusing when you seem to envision me as a computer geek in a cubicle, if only you knew the sort of people I have to deal with daily.
I've seen devs cringe at work for years (actually in cubicles in their case lol), and cringe on the internet for decades. I know what they do outside is for them first of course, who doesn't really anyway?

Sure MAME is not a product, but it's a program/software, available freely for anyone on the planet, allowing them to do incredibly popular things like playing old games. And interaction with them users, expectations, questions, issues, complaints etc, thousands of them, are unevitable. I've always said; once its made open and avaibale to everyone the responsiblity to assume all these aspects, pleasant and unpleasant, presents itself.
What attitude-policy the dev individually or with a group choses to adopt and the actions they'll take then defines how people as users will flock around and enjoy, send love messages, or become disappointed and pissed, then leave looking for alternatives.

It's simple if the dev(s) even if they're doing it in their free time want it to be liked and popular, because for reason they'd consider a lot of users matter for the good health of the project, and enjoy that people acknowledge their progress and achievements, then they know they'll have to go in the direction users expect at least in some reasonable proportions so they don't all flee abandoning the program.
If the devs though for some reason consider they don't really need users and their approval or criticism, or they do but persisitently refuse to hear about things because it makes them feel they're at work again, then I shouldn't have to explain what happens. There's also always the possibility to evolve in an exclusive, restrained circle and keep your work closed.

There's several contradictory aspects to the MAME project and narrative that never made sense to normal users (museum? games are meant to be played, nobody watches code dry like it's paint. users=pirates? dudes quit joking you've dumped the games and coded the emu), could never anyway.
One of these would be the long lasting refusal to hear, have interest, or even compromise about certain things or to acknowledge how important these could be to users and that MAME should take the matter in their hands before maybe something unholy does in their place. RA is the monstrous child born from MAME's contradictions users could never swallow.

I'm not saying that I won't listen to you or anyone suggesting improvements.
What made you think I thought you would close yourself to suggestions or something? To me you are literally the Mame Hero and I think the parts you work on are more important and more relevant to what MAME needs badly if it even considers fighting for its survival and reputation.

I share your view about MAME being set aside by RA. It's the same with GroovyMAME being replaced by the Raspberry Pi developments, it's already happening. The decline period of things has a special appeal to me. It's always the same pattern: most of the time a technology is replaced by a worse one, that gets more popular. The same rule applies to markets and democracies.
IMO it's not really what's happened to MAME, rather as I'm saying up there it's mostly mamedev ever getting the wrong idea about maybe half of what counts for users, and persistantly so for too long, while the crappier alternatives naturally occupy the space in the gaping holes left free for them to prosper. Yes kinda like in politics and economics/society, while they still had the chance and capacity to do something rather they chose to keep ignoring the requests and warnings, only accelerating their own demise.

For me without a doubt mamedev gave birth to RA, which is the living demonstration that people care this much about an UI, easily sortable and searchable games, lag, options, shaders, cheats, controllers, etc working the way they choose, not too harshly restricted or frankly forbidding things or with possibilities simply absent with no other way, no compromise or not they're willing to help with.
I know MAME itself would have done better than RA in most of these areas if only they could have been laying off the dev/engineer logic at times and put themselves in the shoes of users reality more.

Yet again as I've stated, as a free dev(s) it's okay to say no, what's harder to understand is the expansive criticism afterwards, against the alternatives and what they do, when it concerns areas for which you gave that 'no'.

Please Calamity remember it's not you and your work on the GM side that I'm criticiszing, since you've been doing only good.
It's also important for me to highlight that MAME being vast and multi-faceted, I'm not delivering criticism about all of it and everything it is about, no kidding who can forget all those years and miracles? not me. My focus was mainly on what I think they've missed that was most important and had the consequences we see.

Paradroid

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2018, 04:45:56 pm »
Sorry, I strongly disagree with your point of view, but I won't elaborate more on the topic because I think it's a lost cause.

Fair enough. You've obviously got some passionate views on this topic and know the "scene" much better than me (if it's not arcade and CRT then I don't dig deeper). I don't doubt that you've picked up a strong sense of the general sentiment in your travels.

In this case, I'm not trying to say your position is wrong just that there's a reason that things have evolved the way they have (i.e. command line driven tools) as that's the way that so much of the IT industry works (i.e. scripts, APIs, databases, etc. all interacting through some kind of common interface). IT engineer in the next room to me loves PowerShell (command line on steroids) as he can now script the creation of new cloud servers instead of clicking hundreds of icons (as he would have had to do in the past). In his world, things are going more that way, not less. Plus, mousing leads to RSI and CTS much quicker than typing. ;)

I don't know RA at all (never tried it as what I've read here doesn't sound promising) but I'm not sure what your own reservations are as surely they've done (at least partly) what you're hoping for? I.e. hide away all those elitist command line arguments with a layer of eye candy? Is it not to your liking or are there other concerns around RA?
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Paradroid

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2018, 05:24:31 pm »
Yes kinda like in politics and economics/society, while they still had the chance and capacity to do something rather they chose to keep ignoring the requests and warnings, only accelerating their own demise.

Will MAME really end if the user base is reduced? As Calamity mentioned, I would think it depends on the motivation of the developers. Do they do it for notoriety (i.e. large user base) and their ego or for the inherent satisfaction that comes from discovery and achievement?

It's a touch naive on your part to think that none of those big brains have had the same line of thought as you at some stage (i.e. things that would please lowest common denominator users). My view is that they have considered most of these populist requests over the years and have still said "not interested, don't care." The "museum and pirates" thing is a glib line to protect themselves. I can understand that (it's what politicians and salesmen do all the time in the outside world).

They'd probably take a different view if MAME was their day gig and relied on it for an income but when it's your hobby, you have the liberty of being able to say "I'll do what I want, thanks."

Reminds me of a time on the Fruity Loops (music software) forum where the lead developer came in and told a whinging user to "get ---fouled up beyond all recognition---". Lots of people were shocked and offended but he came back with "I've given the user a full refund, I'm not apologizing, it's my software, the customer is not always right." ;)
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schmerzkaufen

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2018, 05:07:41 am »
Yes kinda like in politics and economics/society, while they still had the chance and capacity to do something rather they chose to keep ignoring the requests and warnings, only accelerating their own demise.

Will MAME really end if the user base is reduced? As Calamity mentioned, I would think it depends on the motivation of the developers. Do they do it for notoriety (i.e. large user base) and their ego or for the inherent satisfaction that comes from discovery and achievement?

It's a touch naive on your part to think that none of those big brains have had the same line of thought as you at some stage (i.e. things that would please lowest common denominator users). My view is that they have considered most of these populist requests over the years and have still said "not interested, don't care." The "museum and pirates" thing is a glib line to protect themselves. I can understand that (it's what politicians and salesmen do all the time in the outside world).

They'd probably take a different view if MAME was their day gig and relied on it for an income but when it's your hobby, you have the liberty of being able to say "I'll do what I want, thanks."

Reminds me of a time on the Fruity Loops (music software) forum where the lead developer came in and told a whinging user to "get ---fouled up beyond all recognition---". Lots of people were shocked and offended but he came back with "I've given the user a full refund, I'm not apologizing, it's my software, the customer is not always right." ;)

You're not really reading people's posts in detail and missing the essence and nuances they make, don't you? Didn't I write it's alright if they do wtf they want but that they also have to assume the consequences of telling people to f off? they persistently did on some topics and the consequence of that is RA, yet mamedev will go on criticizing it expansively but of course never admit that it's partly their fault that it exists.

Listen, one of the things that never change is that developers present the world with the fantastic emulators they've made, and get a lot of praise and thanks, but they easily take even the smallest hints of criticism badly or the wrong way, and they're also always surrounded closely by people like you getting passionate and over-defensive of them like they're entitled guardians or antibodies fighting aggressors, and theyre tiring, making communication between lambda users and the devs even heavier and more difficult than it already is. I might be one of the few these days that still bothers with trying to have contact and discuss points with developers directly even if that means criticism and getting to unpleasant parts and mood at times.

It is people like you who have a naive attitude, because you can take offense from people like me who are probably among the most grateful and supportive of the work of these great devs, just I'm not unconditionally about every topic, I'm not a drone.
I may have come with criticism and requests, I may have been a bother to Calamity and other mamedevs, unlike most of the posters around I'm not from the IT world and I am unskilled in this field so there isn't much I can do technically speaking.
Yet I believe that with my meddling these past months I have in my own way participated a bit in improving some aspects of GM and the official MAME too (though elsewhere for the latter) in areas that may not speak to you but do for other users, and I tell you it's extremly hard to be heard and not misunderstood in this environment for someone of my status because of the significant amounts of pretense and rooted negative opinions and attitudes against common users that inevitably get in the way, from devs is one thing we have to be prepared when talking to them directly, but the tiring and useless are the fools that always pop up with passive-agressiveness or frankly to bark and bite the ankles without thinking instead of being any useful.
Devs hurt? yeah sure no one likes criticism. Now what do you think a lowly user experiences visiting these environments and daring to come with not just praise and thanks but also to question and criticize? systematically and in quick escalation being treated like a nuisance, a foreign element or idiot, taking mindless forum argument beatings from drones?
That's also a long time tradition in emu communities, MAME being well know for being one of the harshest, and it's generally how non-geeklord participants are treated, there's a lot of arrogant condescending arses in the world of IT, whether they realize how they are at times or not was never a debate though, the petty user is always wrong if he makes ripples.
I'm so gald that Calamity is not like them or some people even here, which is another aspect of why he and is work are exceptions in this field and age.

More redundancy coming in this paragraph, but I say again it's normal that users have criticism and ensuing requests, they can't exculsively and forever have only blind praise and gratitude, and again it's normal that they have it bad if after nearly two decades of loving MAME for what it was in their eyes (THE specialized arcades emulator) and also having expectations for its future developments/evolutions, if after all this time without any clear statement it actually ends up taking a different direction than the one they believed they could count on advancing indefinitely, it shaping more into an insiders kind of project focusing on stuff not really of this gamers demographics interest.
Developers and engineers aren't some special case of humanity or saint creatures that they have the power to nullify disappointment or disagreement, they're not the only persons giving of their life energy for others and facing hardships and disappointment either. I've always found that kinda unspoken expectation of the environment of tech to expect people around to behave like we're in a sort of religious situation, where touching some subjects is taboo.
I remember at work (an essentially commercial business, not IT specialist) all our in-house devs expressed that frustrated attitude, like they were misunderstood and their work not unconditionally appreciated by everyone (yet despite the drama their salaries were among the highest in the company). It's just that it's a frustrating line of work period, unless you work in a lab with only people in the same line, it can't be helped whether money is involved and even when it's not, because it's a clashing of worlds and cultures situation; IT world vs. the tech-illiterates and ungrateful slave drivers.

So now Para with all that said, well, please if you don't want to give some of the the points I'm trying my best to make when I'm around this community more thought and benefit of closer analysis and doubt, and persist in seeing me as some sort of naive critic without any worthy arguments, not deserving more than your too-quick diagonal reading attention, then please try to not mind my posts because there's definitely no way for us to get along decently and our exchanges not to degenerate into unproductive mood-breaking forums scuffles.
I think I've used way more words than necessary here to justify my position, so there won't be more, the thread was practically resolved when krick posted his .bat anyway, there isn't much more to say on the topic as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway to finish, as Calamity said now is one of those peculiar 'end of an era' transitional times, and it's sometimes in these bizarre difficult times that some of the best things happen.
I repeat but with the recent developments from GM + MAME, it's a great deal better and more powerful, it will pack a quantity of things I've been wanting to see working together in one build since forever, and I am very excited about the next GM (though well I hope it'll be a thing because with all the stuff coming in 203 I hope there won't be trouble ha ha)
I plan a lot of testing and I'm seriously considering writing multiple blog articles in the next months if things go well.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 05:11:22 am by schmerzkaufen »

schmerzkaufen

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2018, 05:40:13 am »
Sorry, I strongly disagree with your point of view, but I won't elaborate more on the topic because I think it's a lost cause.

Fair enough. You've obviously got some passionate views on this topic and know the "scene" much better than me (if it's not arcade and CRT then I don't dig deeper). I don't doubt that you've picked up a strong sense of the general sentiment in your travels.

In this case, I'm not trying to say your position is wrong just that there's a reason that things have evolved the way they have (i.e. command line driven tools) as that's the way that so much of the IT industry works (i.e. scripts, APIs, databases, etc. all interacting through some kind of common interface). IT engineer in the next room to me loves PowerShell (command line on steroids) as he can now script the creation of new cloud servers instead of clicking hundreds of icons (as he would have had to do in the past). In his world, things are going more that way, not less. Plus, mousing leads to RSI and CTS much quicker than typing. ;)

I don't know RA at all (never tried it as what I've read here doesn't sound promising) but I'm not sure what your own reservations are as surely they've done (at least partly) what you're hoping for? I.e. hide away all those elitist command line arguments with a layer of eye candy? Is it not to your liking or are there other concerns around RA?
crap I had a reply for that and forgot to include it.

in short;

- you're giving yet again the prespective of the IT world specialist, it'll never be the non-IT world people's, who are like 99% or the population and users, I think like most users at your level you are not really aware of what most outside people's relationship to technology is.

And you also missed that I reject the use of command line for the lower/early levels of access and expected level of results, but agree it's okay to have more recourse to it proportionally to the requirements/difficulty of the goal.

RA; although as far as MAME is concerned, the intent to bring complete management through UI, lag reduction, more shaders material, not forbidding some things that matter to players and should be their choice...
...there's  alot of it it does wrong;
. using outdated MAME builds, curse that
. allowing abuse of lag reduction and without means to see when it is the case in videos
. disrespecting the work of others, for instance the other day I literally read one guy discussing GM features in RA and ignoring who Calamity is
MAME would have done all that RA is about better by themselves, wouldn't they have been so overly stiff an inflexible on the topics.

over and out

« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 05:47:04 am by schmerzkaufen »

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2018, 07:43:39 am »
they persistently did on some topics and the consequence of that is RA, yet mamedev will go on criticizing it expansively but of course never admit that it's partly their fault that it exists.

This is one of our main friction points. While your point is that RA is the consequence of MAMEdev's stiffness (blame on MAMEdev, partially true), I state that RA is the product of userbase's vices (blame on users, fundamentally true).

My point is that users, making use of their infinite freedom, often choose the worse product for the wrong reasons.

IT bias vs commercial bias, I guess  ;D

(I don't come from the IT world and my job has no relation with it)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 07:49:17 am by Calamity »
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

schmerzkaufen

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2018, 09:51:26 am »
I really don't see in what wanting a full UI support for instance, while this is what MAME was to everyone since the very first appearance of UI builds (I've never met anyone other than for instance the extremely small advancemame userbase, and developers themselves, care to control MAME in command line).

Nor in what wanting lag reduction along wih the UI, or saving autofire settings, or freely sorting and filtering games, playing with several saveable-settings shaders, etc these sorts of things would be vices and bad motives for users to flock around RA instead of the official MAME that did not show nearly as much interest for these things when not complete rejection for what I also sometimes think were quite biased and force-imposed by maybe two-three persons living-under-a-rock's biaised opinions, and also because some narratives are convenient to hide behind.

For me reality is there to speak the truth, RA won players over because official MAME refused to care much if at all about important aspects, MAME would have stayed the reference in users's hearts if they had taken this seriously, the semi-consensual excuses they present to reject most of the faults on users make me laugh, I was there all along watching it happen and on the scale the weight of responsibility definitely doesn't lean the users side the most.

Whatever, I'm sticking to GM anyway since with your additions and the upcoming version that fixes the UI+ini use it, it makes up for a good part of what was missing and not right, and it is still overall preferable to use GM/MAME than RA no matter what.
I'm just a bit bitter that it didn't happen years earlier as a starting trend of increased develoment efforts in order to counter the RA/Pi cancer and make them obsolete before they reached the leadership they have now like it's a bad dream.

You may not be from the IT world yourself but the mentalities in the world of emulation are a lot influenced by that environment, that's expected of course, around geeks are other geeks with similar knowledge and opinions, that's natural, but that means there's also also the very formal and stiff geek-in-corporate-world vibes they give (in fact I've often had the feeling that it's partly the other way around and more the IT crowd that influenced or absorbed and remodeled the organizational traditions of the corporate world) which for MAME translates in that I've never seen MAME in its official narrative really admit making bad decisions or taking wrong turns, and never going back to something anterior no matter if regrets, but instead they always played the political game of power by blaming others like of course alternative builds devs and their users, implying they are always wrong and doing ill. *insert L.A Noire doubt meme here*

n.b: I've never read mame devs curse GM, probably because it's a build that does almost nothing that would violate mamedev's ideology afaik, and you were included in the project, but I've never read any positive comments nor supportive either, they never say to RA users 'you should use GM instead' and it's more common to get the usual indifference or mumbling when questions on lag and smoothness are asked and GM would be the answer honest people would give.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 10:01:25 am by schmerzkaufen »

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2018, 10:33:39 am »
Well maybe because there are idiots, yes, and also people who only know what they've learned from their background.
I know nothing of text-based operation and find it horribly unpractical and counterintuitive, because I'm from the WIMP (windows icons menus and pointers) generation and never had to deal with the former, never studied nor worked in a field requiring better computer knowledge.
Heck I'm not comfortable with touch-based everything and I see an increasing number of people mainly younger using only that now and sucking at WIMP.
Do I think they're idiots? No, because I understand that not everyone learns the same things and technology moves on, like text-based is history, WIMP is slowly becoming obsolated. Also, apparently, having never been a computer savvy-enough guy, I've also never acquired the typical inability to understand that, that seems to come with the knowledge (in other words I've never reached high enough a level that I can afford to look down on others and think 'f them')

Idiots isn't the best word to use but realise that GM+CRT_Emudriver will let you destroy a monitor if you do something it doesn't like (and safeguarding against this is impossible, due to the very nature of what it has to do). LCDs won't care, but analogue CRTs definitely do. It's inherently dangerous.

I really don't see in what wanting a full UI support for instance, while this is what MAME was to everyone since the very first appearance of UI builds (I've never met anyone other than for instance the extremely small advancemame userbase, and developers themselves, care to control MAME in command line).

This idiot has been controlling MAME in commandline since I first found out about it back in 1998 ;) That and with a frontend, inside a cabinet. I've used numerous frontends. I've got friends who have developed their own private frontends too, just to get a UI they liked.

FWIW I think you're entirely misunderstanding MAMEDEVs motivation for working on the project, and this is colouring your view. It's never been about playing the games. Reverse engineering and emulation are possibly the most advanced technical topics within electronics and computer science, so the challenge of just getting things running correctly is the main driver. For the developers, the development is the entertainment.
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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2018, 10:54:50 am »
>  I state that RA is the product of userbase's vices

Pretty much.

A lot of what RA does is inherently bad, but the userbase can't see that, or doesn't care.  It's more of a drug, a 'quick fix' by people who will do anything for attention, and it undermines the real work being done.

Things like run-ahead aren't miraculous features, they utterly destroy legitimate competition on emulated games vs. the originals.  Simply gluing together core doesn't result in improved emulation, even if those cores are 'better' than what MAME can offer.  It's just leeching off the work of others without making any attempt to actually make things work together for mutual benefits.

A lot of what user want is anti-emulation, options for improper emulation and such, things that *would* bloat the MAME codebase with garbage code, much moreso than anything people actually complain is bloating MAME.  The beauty of MAME is that the aim is for *correct* emulation, not adding hacks in cores to make the emulation more palatable which would ultimately come back to bite you.

Had MAME followed the RA approach it would have imploded years ago, infact *early* MAME did similar, if code needed to be reused for another system it got copy-pasted, anything not used by the other system was stripped out for speed, and a result some parts were becoming near unmaintainable, with bugs existing simply because the wrong part of feature incomplete code was copy+pasted.  MAME has made big strides in moving away from that model and having complete shared components rather than per-game/system hacks, of course, criticized because it means things are slower.

Just because a user wants something doesn't mean it's good, that's why I despise things like RA, it's a product of somebody giving into what users 'want' without considering even slightly the consequences of it in the bigger picture.  It's difficult to fight that without compromising the very things that have kept MAME strong over the years.

As others have said, commandline is a massive timesaver.  There is a built in GUI that does some stuff, but any kind of GUI driven program is more time consuming and clumsy to operate, and ultimately, if you actually try to offer the full functionality of the commandline, people seem to hate just as much (see QMC2, which for a frontend is wonderful, but people find it as alien as the actual commandline)

As for the future of MAME, we'll keep doing what we do best, working out how obscure pieces of hardware that were periods of their time, and have no real value these days, work.  I'm doing random TV games now.  Do you care? probably not. is it going to mean something to somebody, maybe, does it have some historical value, certainly.  Not having users will make things more difficult (which is one reason RA is dangerous, again, consequences) but compromising on the values of the project would more likely outright kill it so we just have to make the best of a bad situation the will of certain user groups has created.

If MAME listened to what the majority asked us to do we'd go back to a version from around 1999/2000, port every single big name thing we'd worked on back to that (ditching the rest), have completely independent emulations for everything that had no shared code or mutual benefits and spend all our time looking for cheap hacks to make things run more quickly on weak hardware.  It would be unmaintainable.  See just how often people still recommend those old builds despite them being objectively worse in every way apart from 'framerate' when they don't even offer good emulation due to the archaic approaches that were being used back then (I personally have fixed so many bugs by moving old code away from that model I've lost count).  The RA approach would instead be to full embrace exactly that (we're already seeing it with the runahead type stuff - use the oldest version possible because it runs faster and lets you run more frame.. don't care how bad the emulation was etc.)

It's important people see why thing are the way they are, and why what might seem like the best solution short term is actually not going to be beneficial longterm.  A certain percentage of the userbase are never going to see that, which is something we have to live with.

MAME probably made some mistakes, like not having an official mobile target, but it was never really designed for mobile use anyway, it's a project that has always relied on CPU performance boosts to allow for better emulation and better code, so trying to target regressive hardware in that sense was never really going to be ideal.  Also I've noticed that people with such hardware tend to be very aggressive based on how fast they think their hardware is based on what they paid for it, not ideal when most of the time it's pretty damn slow compared to a proper PC.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 11:16:15 am by Haze »

schmerzkaufen

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2018, 12:40:54 pm »
I will definitely reply your over the top sequence of pretense, misconceptions, and contradictions, but another day since I don't have time rn.  :P

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2018, 01:51:46 pm »
As you want, but that is coming from near 20 years experience doing emulation.

RA isn't the result of good coding, or good design philosophies, it's a project of it's time.  There are enough open source emulators of high quality that leeching from all of them to produce your own 'product' is easy at this point, and a saleable idea at this point.

Attempts to do things in the worst possible way in the past have ended up falling by the wayside because at the times in question that wasn't possible.

They've unfortunately got money and a hype train that will say anything behind them, real marketing guys, which MAME has never had (and doesn't really suit MAME either)

But yeah, tell me, if you've got the complete sources to everything that goes into a 'full retroarch collection' just how many random incomplete cores for z80s, 68ks etc. you have.  You can't actually develop anything further outside of the scope of a single already emulated platform because there's no real starting place, nothing in it actually works together, it literally can only exist because it leeches off already functional projects.  It's a glorified frontend.

It's a disaster and the single worst thing to happen to emulation in the 20 years I've been doing it.  I've even had people ask me why the emulation of certain arcade games hasn't improved because they donated to RA expecting an improvement and people are so misled into somehow thinking RA is an actual emulator, or is somehow in charge of the projects it leeches from (often badly, I've tried MAME in RA a few times and it's always been a mortifying experience, so badly hacked up it hurts and easily the most inefficient way I've seen the project presented)

GroovyMAME on the other hand is a decent little thing trying to reach out to a niche audience but generally trying to do things properly.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 01:59:31 pm by Haze »

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2018, 01:57:48 pm »

MAME probably made some mistakes, like not having an official mobile target, but it was never really designed for mobile use anyway, it's a project that has always relied on CPU performance boosts to allow for better emulation and better code, so trying to target regressive hardware in that sense was never really going to be ideal.  Also I've noticed that people with such hardware tend to be very aggressive based on how fast they think their hardware is based on what they paid for it, not ideal when most of the time it's pretty damn slow compared to a proper PC.

But you're saying this in a forum where the people even keep space for big-ass CRTs for accuracy's sake and rarely use anything other than Windows-based PCs (and therefore believe that MAME has actually being putting too much attention towards mobility and portability lately).

Your views will generally be shared in places like this, I think, however there will always be the belief as well that MAME devs don't like playing the games at all -- even if that's beyond the point as Cools points out. I mean, it's natural a feature like run-ahead will never be present in MAME, and for the good reasons, but it's also unexplainable that frame delay (and the whole Switchres thingie, with it) isn't present in MAME yet or at least has the priority. MAME Dev never liked to hear their userbase and that never changed. You just need to see how difficult is it even today for the user to learn about the actual emulation status of a single game or piece of hardware beforehand -- usually even your own blog is the only source of info and only if you're asked. And that's even documentation (and not playing).

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2018, 02:04:23 pm »
I've not studied 'frame delay' but from things I've read don't you pretty much have to know the emulation requirements of something in advance to make use of it without it just causing problems?  We don't guarantee the same level of performance over all levels of a game etc. as it's very much dependent on what is going on so it becomes a per-game tweak that is liable to cause issues if misused.  I could be wrong on that one, but I seem to remember that being one of the reasons given against it.  MAME tries to avoid anything that could be problematic like that.

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2018, 02:08:20 pm »
but it's also unexplainable that frame delay (and the whole Switchres thingie, with it) isn't present in MAME yet or at least has the priority.

Being fair, this is more of a matter of me not having time to do it properly. And my inability to figure out git.
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Steps to create a log:
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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2018, 02:27:33 pm »
And my inability to figure out git.

I hear you, brother.  I still can't completely wrap my brain around how git is supposed to work.  It's like someone deliberately went out of their way to design the LEAST intuitive source control system possible.
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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2018, 03:13:08 pm »
It's really annoying to just follow progress and whatnot there too, but it's not a thing for the userbase once again, I guess.


Quote
I've not studied 'frame delay' but from things I've read don't you pretty much have to know the emulation requirements of something in advance to make use of it without it just causing problems?  We don't guarantee the same level of performance over all levels of a game etc. as it's very much dependent on what is going on so it becomes a per-game tweak that is liable to cause issues if misused.  I could be wrong on that one, but I seem to remember that being one of the reasons given against it.  MAME tries to avoid anything that could be problematic like that.

You're right but then you (or MAME Dev) are ultimately placing usability ahead of accuracy --much like with ignoring the usage of CRTs for being obsolete, etc.--, which kind of goes against your (MAME Dev's) discourse.

My point was that Calamity's (and the others') work should have been a MAME Dev thing in the end. That it should be one of the first things to look into since it affects every emulated system and the perceived emulation. Maybe (surely!) then, today it would be in a much better form than it is and it would have been perfectly implemented so that it wouldn't be a hassle to use even being a per-game (and per-hardware) feature (it's getting more automated little by little, anyway). With the side effect that Retro Arch would be a little less popular.



Edit: meant to say "perceived emulation", sorry.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 06:29:58 pm by Recapnation »

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2018, 03:44:24 pm »
GroovyMAME on the other hand is a decent little thing trying to reach out to a niche audience but generally trying to do things properly.

Hehe... I guess that was one of those elusive mamedev compliments right there: "Decent little thing". ;)

Haze, out of curiosity, have you ever given GroovyMAME a spin with a real CRT? Your visceral response to all that polished glass and glowing phosphor might lead you to upgrading your rating to "a fine little thing". :)

BTW, love your blog! Those mediocre TV games hold no personal interest for me but reading about your processes does. Appreciate your efforts!
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Paradroid

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2018, 04:19:34 pm »
- you're giving yet again the prespective of the IT world specialist, it'll never be the non-IT world people's, who are like 99% or the population and users, I think like most users at your level you are not really aware of what most outside people's relationship to technology is.

I strongly doubt that 99% of MAME users would describe themselves as being Luddites or computer illiterate.

I'm flattered that describe me as an "IT specialist" just because I can use the command line with reasonable competency. Also, for your amusement (or bewilderment), my last performance review mentioned something positive about being "customer focused". :P

You seem to have a very absolutist view about the divide between users and developers. I'm not convinced it's the dichotomy you present. There is currently a worldwide shift towards tribalism though...

And you also missed that I reject the use of command line for the lower/early levels of access and expected level of results

... and you seemed to have "diagonally read" the part where I posited that the command line is still a positive because it allows communication with front ends which, in turn, allows users to hide that nasty stuff. It serves everyone's purpose. I wasn't trying to necessarily change your thinking but I think that multipurpose functionality is worth acknowledging.

Also, you are right that, despite our best efforts, we don't seem to be reaching each other. I'll leave you to it on this one after this post.

RA; although as far as MAME is concerned, the intent to bring complete management through UI, lag reduction, more shaders material, not forbidding some things that matter to players and should be their choice...
...there's  alot of it it does wrong;
. using outdated MAME builds, curse that
. allowing abuse of lag reduction and without means to see when it is the case in videos
. disrespecting the work of others, for instance the other day I literally read one guy discussing GM features in RA and ignoring who Calamity is
MAME would have done all that RA is about better by themselves, wouldn't they have been so overly stiff an inflexible on the topics.

Thanks for the summary, appreciate it. Fits with the impression that I've formed through tidbits in this forum.

or saving autofire settings

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Re: autoboot verbose script ?
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2018, 04:37:05 am »
The only few bits that bug me with MAME:

1) Controller settings (default.cfg) are saved automatically. Meaning it's super easy to wipe some carefully configured controls.
2) The in game volume setting isn't/can't be saved.
3) Even if (2) were possible using writeconfig, writeconfig saves every setting rather than just the options that differ from the inis used to execute the game.

One of these days I'll dig into the source and see if I can make the master volume slider saveable in .cfg files, the same way all the other sliders are done :)
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