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Author Topic: Windows 10 - worse performance?  (Read 1210 times)

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cyb

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Windows 10 - worse performance?
« on: October 03, 2018, 01:04:03 pm »
I thought I'd try Win10 again, I had trouble with it and groovymame in the past. I noticed that a game that I could normally run with a high frame delay (maglord) was running extremely slow. I did a bench with sound using the method intealls suggested ( -nothrottle -nowaitvsync -nosyncrefresh -notriplebuffer -video d3d) and it ran at 614%. On the very same hardware, only with windows 7, this same bench ran the game at 1209%. Why is there such a large discrepancy here? Has anyone else experienced this? I guess it's back to win7 again. The only reason I was thinking about using 10 is that it's a lot easier to hide the shell with 10.

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Slippyblade

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2018, 03:25:09 pm »
Win10 blows and sucks at the same time. 

cyb

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2018, 03:28:45 pm »
I certainly can't disagree with you there.

Calamity

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2018, 04:27:01 am »
What happens if you run the same with -video none?
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
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 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

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krick

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2018, 10:55:05 am »
...it ran at 614%. On the very same hardware, only with windows 7, this same bench ran the game at 1209%.

Are you comparing apples to apples?  Is it the same identical version and build of MAME?  Do both computers have up-t0-date drivers installed, including the Intel Chipset drivers?

Windows 10 education 1709

Is the "education" version gimped in some way or is it just a different license type?

There may also be problems with version 1709....
https://www.google.com/search?q=Windows+10+1709+performance
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cyb

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2018, 12:11:07 pm »
Are you comparing apples to apples?  Is it the same identical version and build of MAME?  Do both computers have up-t0-date drivers installed, including the Intel Chipset drivers?

It's the same machine.  all drivers up to date. I used the exact same MAME folder with no changes each time.

W10 education is basically the same as enterprise so it allows hiding of the shell easily.  It could be a 1709 issue. I read a thread here where some people were having trouble with 1803 so I figured I'd try an earlier build.

Calamity, I've already gone back to 7 but I might retry a different build of 10 with your suggestion thanks!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 02:15:50 pm by cyb »

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2018, 03:30:27 am »
Microsoft at its peak; shortly after an update brutally crashing Intel chipset drivers, the new version update 1809 goes further and deletes your files!

No video, no files = no computer problems. Perfection. *insert 'you cant if you dont' meme here*  ;)

I know it's no good to developers because they need feedback from users but I haven't installed any MAME nor any emulator on Win 10 yet, since it's an OS I use only reluctantly for work once in a while (not kidding you my Win 10 laptop has a layer of dust on it)

Mike A

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2018, 08:34:37 am »
Give me a freakin' break. I am partners in a warehouse business. We have 11 PCs all running Windows 10. I do all of the IT stuff. I have zero qualifications for that. The graphics and web guys use Photoshop. Other than them we do standard office stuff. I have a PC at home. My son is a gamer and dabbler with music on his PC. My daughter is in college and she has a laptop. They all run Windows 10. None of these computers has so much as hiccuped since the switch to Windows 10. I know some people have issues, but quit overblowing it. You act like Windows 10 PCs explode if you look at them funny.

keilmillerjr

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2018, 09:29:47 am »
Give me a freakin' break. I am partners in a warehouse business. We have 11 PCs all running Windows 10. I do all of the IT stuff. I have zero qualifications for that. The graphics and web guys use Photoshop. Other than them we do standard office stuff. I have a PC at home. My son is a gamer and dabbler with music on his PC. My daughter is in college and she has a laptop. They all run Windows 10. None of these computers has so much as hiccuped since the switch to Windows 10. I know some people have issues, but quit overblowing it. You act like Windows 10 PCs explode if you look at them funny.

I stopped using Windows when 95 came out. I instantly wanted to roll back to win 3 and dos. Itís what drove me to using Mac and experimenting with Linux. Fast forward 18 years, version 10 Iíve actually been happy with. My hate for m$oft has been softened.

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2018, 09:49:27 am »
The severe issues that affected Win 10 users mostly started with the 17** versions up until the very latest 1809, and depend on the hardware and edition, with WUpdate failing several steps on smaller storage units like those 32GB eMMC and getting them stuck in an indefinite loop trying to download and install, and the manual solutions weren't so simple that anyone could do it without help, I've seen many laptops experiencing this past year including mine and those of people around me.
Microsoft failed to fix it and bring efficient support, instead afaik they are now discussing forbidding the sale of OEM licenses along with those unfit units.
As far as it went I've witnessed quite a lot of people ending up blocking the updates by activating the limited connectivity option, so they are still using 17**.
Enterprise, Education and computers fitting the REAL minimum hardware requirements were not affected by the WUpdate fiasco (edit: well maybe still so assuming some low end units were sold with those pro editions, but I haven't seen any offers that shameful yet. the business is vast though, who knows what some shops and suppliers might bundle and sell even to businesses whihout a care?)

Latest which is all over the news is 1809 basically clearing the user's files during the update, which must be their biggest failure so far legally speaking, they've stopped deploying it after a day or two in order to fix it. If you were in a scheduled deployment zone at the time you could basically lose all your files.
Glad I waited, I always do now since I have a family edition, before switching back the limited connectivity switch (yeah of course I use it too, I don't trust them anymore)

Leaving that aside 1809 is smaller and no longer fails some of the update and install steps, it isn't nearly as bad as 1709 and 1803, looks like M learned their lesson, but that doesn't excuse the fact that they sucked massively at their most essential job and their Win 10 product policy is crap.

So that's how it happened, for millions of people for about a year Win 10 has been a nightmare, making their computer unusable and unsafe, I've experienced and witnessed it around me quite a bit...
...and of course for millions of other users of unconcerned editions and hardware, nothing special happened, they were mostly unaware and satisfied, which is understandable.
I agree that - after turning off most of the craploads of intrusive telemetry ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- spying on you like it's a mobile OS - it's a pretty smooth and lightweight experience, no reason why the popular applications wouldn't work well on it.

On the emulation side, it's only a number of things getting in the way, but as far as I've seen hardly anything that will stop the emu dev Wizards if we are patient.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 09:56:43 am by schmerzkaufen »

Zebra

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2018, 03:56:03 pm »
Give me a freakin' break. I am partners in a warehouse business. We have 11 PCs all running Windows 10. I do all of the IT stuff. I have zero qualifications for that. The graphics and web guys use Photoshop. Other than them we do standard office stuff. I have a PC at home. My son is a gamer and dabbler with music on his PC. My daughter is in college and she has a laptop. They all run Windows 10. None of these computers has so much as hiccuped since the switch to Windows 10. I know some people have issues, but quit overblowing it. You act like Windows 10 PCs explode if you look at them funny.

I stopped using Windows when 95 came out. I instantly wanted to roll back to win 3 and dos. Itís what drove me to using Mac and experimenting with Linux. Fast forward 18 years, version 10 Iíve actually been happy with. My hate for m$oft has been softened.

I'm having the reverse experience. After avoiding Linux like the Black Death my whole life, I tried it recently to run my CNC machine. I was surprised to find that it ran better, faster and with less issues than Windows. I was equally surprised by how Windows-like and easy to use modern Linux builds are.

Microsoft is driving me mad at the moment. I feel like I am forever dealing with Windows related issues. Last week it decided that my legit Windows 7 pro had become illegitimate after I switched my GPU (which they decided made it a different machine). It forced me to waste hours searching for my product key that I wrote down 8 years ago...

Also, Windows is constantly driving me mad asking me to update stuff that I don't care about, with no perceivable benefit after the updates...

I can see a time where Linux catches up to and surpasses Windows. They are even making modern PC games available to work in Linux and many run just as well as in Windows. Once every game works in Linux as well as Windows, there may be no further need to pay for new operating systems...

For most people, the only thing better than "perfect" is "free".

keilmillerjr

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2018, 07:49:50 pm »
Give me a freakin' break. I am partners in a warehouse business. We have 11 PCs all running Windows 10. I do all of the IT stuff. I have zero qualifications for that. The graphics and web guys use Photoshop. Other than them we do standard office stuff. I have a PC at home. My son is a gamer and dabbler with music on his PC. My daughter is in college and she has a laptop. They all run Windows 10. None of these computers has so much as hiccuped since the switch to Windows 10. I know some people have issues, but quit overblowing it. You act like Windows 10 PCs explode if you look at them funny.

I stopped using Windows when 95 came out. I instantly wanted to roll back to win 3 and dos. Itís what drove me to using Mac and experimenting with Linux. Fast forward 18 years, version 10 Iíve actually been happy with. My hate for m$oft has been softened.

I'm having the reverse experience. After avoiding Linux like the Black Death my whole life, I tried it recently to run my CNC machine. I was surprised to find that it ran better, faster and with less issues than Windows. I was equally surprised by how Windows-like and easy to use modern Linux builds are.

Microsoft is driving me mad at the moment. I feel like I am forever dealing with Windows related issues. Last week it decided that my legit Windows 7 pro had become illegitimate after I switched my GPU (which they decided made it a different machine). It forced me to waste hours searching for my product key that I wrote down 8 years ago...

Also, Windows is constantly driving me mad asking me to update stuff that I don't care about, with no perceivable benefit after the updates...

I can see a time where Linux catches up to and surpasses Windows. They are even making modern PC games available to work in Linux and many run just as well as in Windows. Once every game works in Linux as well as Windows, there may be no further need to pay for new operating systems...

For most people, the only thing better than "perfect" is "free".

Keep your eyes on Ubuntu. Itís window manager is extremely user friendly. The only thing really keeping it from squeezing in with the top two is people not willing to try something new. Apple did a smart thing business wise, trying to grasp windows users. It worked. Mac OS has some bloat now. Grr. What CNC machine are you using with linux? I work at smith and wesson. We have a few hundred cnc machines. All running windows. I was super pissed off with this machine today running windows 2000 and the data drive got corrupted. Have to bring in the big boys now. They donít believe in read only file systems I guess.

Mike A

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2018, 07:58:43 pm »
no backup?

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2018, 08:28:49 pm »
I can see a time where Linux catches up to and surpasses Windows.

Interesting... I probably would have said the same thing a few years back. However, I work for a company that is one of the biggest Microsoft customers in New Zealand and, based on what I hear and see, more competitive licensing and greater innovation from Microsoft in recent times have are stopped a lot of the open source talk in the corporate world.

But, yeah, work aside, I tried GroovyMAME with the latest Windows 10 and W10 sucked for that.
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Calamity

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2018, 07:01:32 am »
IMHO the best "classic" Windows version is 8.1. All the things that people liked of 10 were already there in 8.1, it's just that because everybody skipped 8 nobody knew that. And 8.1 is free of most of 10 annoyances, e.g. spyware, Cortana, update tyranny, etc.

What I've always liked of Windows is its solid backwards compatibility. E.g. I have a game I coded in 2008 that runs perfectly on Windows 10. That's 10 years later. No need to recompile. No problems with missing libraries, etc. I fear Windows may be moving away from that tradition in order to be more Linux-like.

Linux is totally different in my experience. Apps are compiled using some version of the system libraries, and often don't work after a few major system updates. I was shocked about this when I was involved in Groovy Arcade, I mean, coming from the Windows enviroment I was so used to the other way of thinking that I assumed we were doing something wrong and that Linux couldn't really be that way.

Then of course after having had experience with Android I understand this a bit more. Each Android device has a customized version of it, to deal with different hardware architectures. Now think of Windows, where a single OS binary works on thousands of different hardware configurations.

I mean, of course Windows has the same issues with libraries (e.g. visual c++ redistributables), but it is handled in a way that the user is not forced to update the whole os.

Now people are bombed with continuous updates of everything, my wife says it's a conspiracy. Windows 10 has become the same. The last two major updates didn't go well on my laptop, I wasted two days with the last one. Now it's working fine after a fresh reinstall, but man, do I need to this a twice a year?. I want a computer not a pet.

Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Mike A

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2018, 07:54:39 am »
What am I doing differently with updates? I must be an outlier because I never have any issues. All of my work and home computers are on auto-update. I honestly never have any problems.

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2018, 05:50:57 pm »
In all my years using and supporting Windows installations, none have been as bad with updates as 10. I know there have been problems in the past but W10 is on a whole new level of bad.

I quite like the cruft free LTSB version. Shame that one is Enterprise only.
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Sledge

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2018, 09:37:47 pm »
On my gaming PC i use Win10 for the compatibility with everything.. plus some games only run on Win10..
On the cabs i've still got win 7 and i doubt i'll ever update from that..

buttersoft

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2018, 10:11:29 pm »
In all my years using and supporting Windows installations, none have been as bad with updates as 10. I know there have been problems in the past but W10 is on a whole new level of bad.

I quite like the cruft free LTSB version. Shame that one is Enterprise only.

I do worry about iot or eterprise or education builds as well. I was using a lite build of Win7 that ran amazingly well, but couldn't be updated past DX9, and was missing a few components that meant emulation apart from mame always ran into hiccups. I'm actually much happier on Win10 overall. But yeah 10 is ---smurfy--- for updates. Which is a shame because i find it really nice apart from that.

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2018, 02:37:45 am »
Their idea to redesign several things all at once ever six months is so obviously bad. Smaller monthly or bimonthly changes would be safer and much less troublesome.
It's probably a so-so comparison because it's not an OS, but imagine if MAME relesed new versions only twice a year... :D

smass

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2018, 10:44:25 am »
What am I doing differently with updates? I must be an outlier because I never have any issues. All of my work and home computers are on auto-update. I honestly never have any problems.

Same here.  Windows 10 on 8 different comps that I own.  All working fine with auto updates.  Not sure what the disconnect is....

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2018, 11:19:43 am »
Well I've mentioned the mumbo, again; it did not affect all machines and editions, or not all necessarily with the same heavy consequences.
If your computers aren't concerned, of course you've experienced no issues...

Calamity

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2018, 11:53:20 am »
I think it's caused by incompatible drivers or hardware issues. In my case, I bought this laptop with 7 home preinstalled. It was a fast laptop, I remind compiling MAME in 15 minutes back then. It worked perfectly well with 7 for a few years until 10 was available. I didn't hesitate to jump into 10, but unfortunately the update process wasn't smooth at all, it failed the first and second attempts, then it worked maybe in the third. Each attempt took maybe 6 or 7 hours (seriously). Once installed, I instantly noticed that boot times were absurdly long. I thought it would be faster than 7 on that regard (8 was faster). I spent some time optimizing things and I finally got a more or less decent setup, but then suddendly the system started to freeze randomly. Next major update iterations have been equally terrible, needing several attempts each. The final one (1803) never succeeded after nearly 10 attempts. So I decided to replace the hard drive with a new SSD and try a fresh install of 1803. To my surprise it was installed and ready to use in a few minutes. No more freezing, everything working great again, for the first time since I upgraded from 7. So my understanding is that the first update from 7 to 10 made a mess with drivers and configurations inherited from 7, and this crap ball has been rolling since then getting bigger and bigger with each update. I am to blame for having trusted the automatic update feature when basic instinct warned me against that, after all it was installing an OS over an old one, what could go wrong? A fresh install is always a better idea. And this is my point: forcing full OS updates on people is a temerity.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

smass

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2018, 12:05:59 pm »
Good points on the update thing.  All my comps are fresh installs with one exception, a laptop that had windows 7 on it when I bought it and was updated to Windows 10 when the free window was open.  I rarely us it, but when I do I have noticed its a lot slower than I remember when I first got it.  I will try a fresh install of Windows 10 on it and see if thats the secret sauce :)

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2018, 01:44:30 pm »
The install proces at least up to 1803 was flawed in that in order to install it made two things: a copy of the current version, and downloading the new version.
If you did not have enough space at some point (almost inevitable on the smaller eMMC/SSD), the install would fail and it would keep trying to download and install again, forgetting that it had already done these two steps.
To let the update complete itself I had to free as much space as possible (about 10~12GB which is practically the maximum free space you can have on a 32GB), cut off my internet connection during the reboot, then clear both the saved previous version (which I believe is kept a whole month), and the newer's install files which are stored in some folder and won't appear to the disk cleaner utility.
I also had to activate the metered connection to stop it from trying to redo the update again. Yes, because it was trying again, apparently unaware that it was already done.

Previously before all that I had tried to do the update from a thumb drive but it crashed, I also tried the utility that's supposed to let you move as many files as possible to another drive temporarily but it failed.
And even before that the 2017 fall update had similar issues but at the time Microsoft had let a dedicated update utility float around their website, it worked, but of course was removed before 1803.

Sure again when it works 10 isn't bad, but behind is the most incompetent service I have ever experienced from them.
To think their plan for the future is to turn their OS into a 'windows as a service' abomination...makes you wonder if they're hiring ex-EA employees to advise and work, or something.

In any case I'm keeping 7 and 8.1 as long as possible for what I absolutely need on Windows, and 10 will only ever be for non-precious and light stuff, as well as simply keeping up with the rest of the users. Hopefully the next Windows will not exclusively be the dreaded WaaS, and Microsoft seem to be working on a tick-tock production logic: crap, good, crap, good, crap, etc.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 01:47:57 pm by schmerzkaufen »

keilmillerjr

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2018, 06:22:21 pm »
Windows 18? 11? 24! 97? Double Decade Edition?

buttersoft

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2018, 06:25:30 pm »
Yeah TBH i'm starting to come around to thinking Win10 is shite, after my experience last night. I've put up with driver scrubs that leave my cab trying to hurt its monitor, and the 1803 creators update that required a new SSD (i needed to upgrade anyway). But last night I left my cab on to image the drive, and when i came back this morning windows 10 had deactivated itself.  I really feel Win10 is superior in terms of usability, and at first it was miles ahead even of 8, but it's starting to get weird with the amount of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- they force you to put up with. If i didn't need it to be online i'd be looking into da hax.

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2018, 04:06:37 am »
Welp. Microsoft's second attempt at deploying 1809; after the deleted files fiasco of the first one, now it's crashing audio drivers and giving blue screens.

I don't understand what's happened to them, though I have mostly skipped the 90's, as a Windows user I don't remember them breaking the update engine, and delivering so many botched KB's in succession like monthly. There were always problems and sucky things, but not like they were specifically themselves the main source of trouble, forcibly delivering bomb packages to your place like you're an unwillingly masochist amazon premium customer.

A new Windows and new policy together certainly are to blame, but maybe their R&D and insiders program have become weak too.
Could it be a lack of logs ?

Mike A

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Re: Windows 10 - worse performance?
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2018, 06:10:02 am »
Still no problems here. 14 different PCs of various ages.

  
 

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