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Author Topic: Want your thoughts on this concept design for commercial use BYOAC  (Read 653 times)

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ZTylerDurden717

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Hi all,

I've been roaming the forum getting super helpful advice the past few weeks.

I've gone back and forth in my head deciding how to have (free/no coin system) retro gaming in a commercial setting using a custom cab.  ROMs are out of the picture.

How do you guys feel about building a slick custom cab, except the guts is a NES classic attached to these controls which will be elegantly built as part of the control panel:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1359909-REG/hyperkin_m07258_the_edge_joystick_v2_0.html?ap=y&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrszdBRDWARIsAEEYhrcw7yIDGF6vdEmNS-iNTePhZtJjYeqbitQWmVatI4mO50kPKZYFadAaAtwOEALw_wcB&smp=y

Would love to know your thoughts.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 01:59:59 am by ZTylerDurden717 »

Howard_Casto

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Re: Want your thoughts on this concept design for commercial use BYOAC
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2018, 01:09:35 am »
Remember you asked. 

I'm assuming by no roms you mean that you'll be using the original games included with the NES classic and nothing else and therefore the discussion shouldn't even go further.  Most of the games on the NES classic are suited for extended play and therefore are NOT suited to an arcade cabinet.  Finishing Zelda takes a few hours, as does Metroid and even some of the simpler games like SMB 3.

There's nothing wrong with "the edge" but keep in mind that it doesn't have a home button, so you'll have to softmod the unit to allow users to return to the menu and if you are going to softmod it anyway, you can get other usb joysticks working once you've done so with the aid of an OTG cable so you aren't particularly forced to use that joystick.  Probably the best solution would be to order some knock-off classic controllers ("classic" as in for the wii) and hack those so you can have a dedicated control panel.  They'll have home buttons so no softmod required. 

ZTylerDurden717

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Re: Want your thoughts on this concept design for commercial use BYOAC
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2018, 02:04:57 am »
Remember you asked. 

I'm assuming by no roms you mean that you'll be using the original games included with the NES classic and nothing else and therefore the discussion shouldn't even go further.  Most of the games on the NES classic are suited for extended play and therefore are NOT suited to an arcade cabinet.  Finishing Zelda takes a few hours, as does Metroid and even some of the simpler games like SMB 3.

There's nothing wrong with "the edge" but keep in mind that it doesn't have a home button, so you'll have to softmod the unit to allow users to return to the menu and if you are going to softmod it anyway, you can get other usb joysticks working once you've done so with the aid of an OTG cable so you aren't particularly forced to use that joystick.  Probably the best solution would be to order some knock-off classic controllers ("classic" as in for the wii) and hack those so you can have a dedicated control panel.  They'll have home buttons so no softmod required.

Thanks for your reply!  I actually prefer having no soft reset for the games to feel more like an arcade UI. For example, if I wanted to leave on Pac-man it'll stay on Pac-man for that day.  The next day I could switch it to Galaga, etc.

The edge joysticks seem to receive positive reviews in its look and feel.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 02:07:32 am by ZTylerDurden717 »

Titchgamer

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Re: Want your thoughts on this concept design for commercial use BYOAC
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2018, 02:41:55 am »
I would echo what Howard said, But maybe consider changing the console.
Like Howard said NES is not a arcade system its made for long play.

Maybe consider using the new Neo Geo Mini? Its a arcade system at heart and can output HDMI natively to go to a small tv screen.
You could also buy 2 of the controllers and hack them to a CP. or maybe build a custom CP depending on the connection type, Not sure if its a standard connection or not on the mini?


barrymossel

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Re: Want your thoughts on this concept design for commercial use BYOAC
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2018, 04:08:31 am »
What if you bought an Arcade1UP cabinet and build a normal sized (for normal grown-ups) cabinet around it?

But still, I don't know what kind of commercial setting you are talking about, but I guess if it's not like a commercial chain or something, I would just use Mame and ROMs. But just my 2 cents, living in NL (Europe).

ZTylerDurden717

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Re: Want your thoughts on this concept design for commercial use BYOAC
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2018, 12:39:53 pm »
Hi guys,

Great suggestions across the board.

Let me give you all more background.

Every arcade has Pac-man, Donkey-Kong or Galaga.  That's a must.  But being born in the late 80's, I don't love those games to the extent that I'd spend 1,000-2,500 USD for an original cab.  I'd rather build a custom new cab using very impressive modern design techniques used in this forum and incorporate all three games in one while keeping it street legal.  That's why I came up with the NES Classic + Edge combo.

I would echo what Howard said, But maybe consider changing the console.
Like Howard said NES is not a arcade system its made for long play.

Maybe consider using the new Neo Geo Mini? Its a arcade system at heart and can output HDMI natively to go to a small tv screen.
You could also buy 2 of the controllers and hack them to a CP. or maybe build a custom CP depending on the connection type, Not sure if its a standard connection or not on the mini?


The NES classic isn't a native arcade system, I agree.  But if I leave the game running Pac-man or Galaga, wouldn't it be the same as a short play experience in terms of UI?

I could potentially hack the "edge" controllers to a custom CP but I'm not sure how that would work without some lengthy solder/software trial and error.  That would obviously be a game changer!  In the meantime, I feel like I could incorporate the controllers by making an "edge" base-plate and screwing them on like a hybrid CP.  The controllers are supposedly very good quality.

What if you bought an Arcade1UP cabinet and build a normal sized (for normal grown-ups) cabinet around it?


That's actually a great alternative.  The problem is the cost.  I'd be stripping the Arcade1UP for the official licensed guts only to spend more money on my custom made cabinet. The Arcade1UP cabs are tiny from screen size to height including the riser.

Osirus23

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Re: Want your thoughts on this concept design for commercial use BYOAC
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2018, 12:53:41 pm »
From the sound of things you want a cab that includes some classic arcade titles like Pac-man, Ms. Pac-man and Galaga, but want to keep everything on the up-and-up regarding licensing, which is why you thought to use a NES Classic, is that correct?

The NES ports of those games are decent, but they aren't perfect reproductions of the arcade versions.

Also I wouldn't - especially in a commercial setting - try to use some crappy Hyperkin NES Advantage clone as arcade controls. I'd build a proper CP using commercial components, buy a third party NES Classic controller and strip it down to the PCB and cord and solder the CP connectors to the buttons on the PCB. That is, of course, if you stick with using a NES Classic as the core of your system.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 12:58:38 pm by Osirus23 »

Mike A

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Re: Want your thoughts on this concept design for commercial use BYOAC
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2018, 12:58:12 pm »
It seems like you are worried about the legality of things. You might want to check the license agreement that came with whatever system you want to use. This is Nintendo's terms of service.

Limited License.
Nintendo. Nintendo grants you a limited, non-sublicensable license to access and use the Services for your personal use only. Such license is subject to these Terms and does not include: (a) any resale or commercial use of the Services or the Materials therein; (b) the distribution, public performance or public display of any Materials; (c) modifying or otherwise making any derivative uses of the Services or the Materials, or any portion thereof; (d) downloading (other than the page caching) of any portion of the Services, the Materials or any information contained therein, except as expressly permitted on the Services; or (f) any use of the Services or the Materials other than for their intended purposes. Any use of the Services or the Materials other than as specifically authorized herein, without the prior written permission of Nintendo, is strictly prohibited and will terminate the license granted herein. Such unauthorized use may also violate applicable laws, including without limitation copyright and trademark laws and applicable communications regulations and statutes. Unless explicitly stated herein, nothing in these Terms shall be construed as conferring any license to intellectual property rights, whether by estoppel, implication or otherwise. Nintendo may revoke this license at any time.

There really isn't any way to use consumer software in a commercial setting legally. Most people just ignore it because enforcement is spotty or nonexistent. The only reason I mention it is because you wrote that you are concerned about keeping things legal.

I used to own retail stores. We received cease and desist letters for employees playing FM radio in the retail space in two locations. You are supposed to pay for that too.

Osirus23

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Re: Want your thoughts on this concept design for commercial use BYOAC
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2018, 01:01:19 pm »
Good point Mike. I was going to mention that you probably run afoul of license issues using a NES Classic commercially anyway, and it seems you proved so.

Commercial licensing isn't priced based on what you are getting, it's priced based on how you are going to use it. It's the reason why I can get Visual Studio Community for free to build software for personal use, but have to spend $500 for Visual Studio Professional to develop commercial software, even though functionally the products are identical.

JDFan

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Re: Want your thoughts on this concept design for commercial use BYOAC
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2018, 01:31:18 pm »
Perhaps one of the Jaks pacific type Pacman plug and play units -- build a cabinet around it and rewire the joystick and buttons on the plug and play device to regular arcade buttons/joysticks

THis unit ( https://www.walmart.com/ip/Bandai-Americia-Pac-Man-Connect-and-Play-12-Classic-Games/45460128  ) sells for less than $20 and has 12 games ( Pac-Man, Pac-Man Plus, Bosconian, Galaxian, Mappy, Super Pac-Man, Galaga, Dig Dug, New Rally X, Pac and Pal and Xevious ) - normally uses 4 batteries but can be changed easily to run on a 5V powersupply (ie. any USB charger) - plugs into pretty much any old TV through AV plugs - so can easily be setup.

I've used on in a small bartop and it runs the games good and has a decent menu system for selecting games. ( got the idea from another forum member that was also building one using it ) Not sure what the licensing is like on them but would think as long as you are not charging people to play the thing it should be fine since it is using an officially licensed game system just with some improvements and are meant to be plugged into a tv and played so don't see why it couldn't be used.

Links to my build and the other similar one that inspired it ( Pretty sure someone else used one in a VIgolix build but don't remember the link)

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,139689.msg1444799.html#msg1444799

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,136983.msg1412745.html#msg1412745
 

Howard_Casto

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Re: Want your thoughts on this concept design for commercial use BYOAC
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2018, 01:41:07 pm »
I'll echo the others' thoughts about everything, but let me reply to some of the replies you've made. 

First off it sounds like you are intimidated by hacking gamepads, ect.  Don't be.  If you can clumsily tack a dab of solder to either side of a button contact on the controller's pcb you can hack a gamepad.  Like I mentioned, there are knockoff wii classic controllers on ebay and aliexpress all the time for a few dollars and they have the added benefit of having a home button allowing you to return to the menu.  Then you spend the savings on really good arcade controls, which is where you always want to put the bulk of your money.  I"m telling you right now, if you put those plastic edge joysticks as-is in a commercial setting they probably aren't going to last long.....  there's a reason arcades stick to steel or 3/4 inch plywood.  It also sounds like you think people will be ok with you choosing the game and changing it when you see fit.  Get that idea out of your head.... as soon as people figure out you can change the game they will be constantly annoying you to change it to the game they want to play. 


Lastly, since you don't seem to care about arcade accuracy, I would suggest you take a look at the new At@games consoles coming out this fall.  Arcade bundles from Namco and other companies, hdmi out and a mere 20 bucks.  Their quality level isn't always great, but you can't argue with 20 bucks. 

ZTylerDurden717

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Re: Want your thoughts on this concept design for commercial use BYOAC
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2018, 02:10:29 pm »

The NES ports of those games are decent, but they aren't perfect reproductions of the arcade versions.


They aren't perfect reproductions but they'll be close enough for the general passerby.


Also I wouldn't - especially in a commercial setting - try to use some crappy Hyperkin NES Advantage clone as arcade controls. I'd build a proper CP using commercial components, buy a third party NES Classic controller and strip it down to the PCB and cord and solder the CP connectors to the buttons on the PCB. That is, of course, if you stick with using a NES Classic as the core of your system.


I'll echo the others' thoughts about everything, but let me reply to some of the replies you've made. 

First off it sounds like you are intimidated by hacking gamepads, ect.  Don't be.  If you can clumsily tack a dab of solder to either side of a button contact on the controller's pcb you can hack a gamepad.  Like I mentioned, there are knockoff wii classic controllers on ebay and aliexpress all the time for a few dollars and they have the added benefit of having a home button allowing you to return to the menu.  Then you spend the savings on really good arcade controls, which is where you always want to put the bulk of your money.  I"m telling you right now, if you put those plastic edge joysticks as-is in a commercial setting they probably aren't going to last long.....  there's a reason arcades stick to steel or 3/4 inch plywood.  It also sounds like you think people will be ok with you choosing the game and changing it when you see fit.  Get that idea out of your head.... as soon as people figure out you can change the game they will be constantly annoying you to change it to the game they want to play. 


Lastly, since you don't seem to care about arcade accuracy, I would suggest you take a look at the new At@games consoles coming out this fall.  Arcade bundles from Namco and other companies, hdmi out and a mere 20 bucks.  Their quality level isn't always great, but you can't argue with 20 bucks. 

You guys are right.  It's a solid workaround that I should totally do.  I've done solder work in several instances and this sounds pretty practical.  I'll also include the home button since there's no reason I should keep players out from the game selections.

Excellent find on the arcade bundles as an alternative.  20 bucks is hard to beat.

Good point Mike. I was going to mention that you probably run afoul of license issues using a NES Classic commercially anyway, and it seems you proved so.

Commercial licensing isn't priced based on what you are getting, it's priced based on how you are going to use it. It's the reason why I can get Visual Studio Community for free to build software for personal use, but have to spend $500 for Visual Studio Professional to develop commercial software, even though functionally the products are identical.

Good points guys.  I've gone to barcades where they'll have a couch with a Gamecube playing multiplayer Double Dash and whatnot and I thought "hey, this is cool!"  At the end, I suppose it's not kosher. 

Perhaps one of the Jaks pacific type Pacman plug and play units -- build a cabinet around it and rewire the joystick and buttons on the plug and play device to regular arcade buttons/joysticks

THis unit ( https://www.walmart.com/ip/Bandai-Americia-Pac-Man-Connect-and-Play-12-Classic-Games/45460128  ) sells for less than $20 and has 12 games ( Pac-Man, Pac-Man Plus, Bosconian, Galaxian, Mappy, Super Pac-Man, Galaga, Dig Dug, New Rally X, Pac and Pal and Xevious ) - normally uses 4 batteries but can be changed easily to run on a 5V powersupply (ie. any USB charger) - plugs into pretty much any old TV through AV plugs - so can easily be setup.

I've used on in a small bartop and it runs the games good and has a decent menu system for selecting games. ( got the idea from another forum member that was also building one using it ) Not sure what the licensing is like on them but would think as long as you are not charging people to play the thing it should be fine since it is using an officially licensed game system just with some improvements and are meant to be plugged into a tv and played so don't see why it couldn't be used.

Links to my build and the other similar one that inspired it ( Pretty sure someone else used one in a VIgolix build but don't remember the link)

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,139689.msg1444799.html#msg1444799

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,136983.msg1412745.html#msg1412745
 


Awesome suggestion as well.  The only part I'd need extra research on is the battery to 5V powersupply.  Based on what you're saying it's not that hard to wire the power differently.  I'd use an LCD and I'm guessing an analog to digital converter will do the job.

And yes, I'm not charging people to play the games.

JDFan

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Re: Want your thoughts on this concept design for commercial use BYOAC
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2018, 02:33:30 pm »
Perhaps one of the Jaks pacific type Pacman plug and play units -- build a cabinet around it and rewire the joystick and buttons on the plug and play device to regular arcade buttons/joysticks

THis unit ( https://www.walmart.com/ip/Bandai-Americia-Pac-Man-Connect-and-Play-12-Classic-Games/45460128  ) sells for less than $20 and has 12 games ( Pac-Man, Pac-Man Plus, Bosconian, Galaxian, Mappy, Super Pac-Man, Galaga, Dig Dug, New Rally X, Pac and Pal and Xevious ) - normally uses 4 batteries but can be changed easily to run on a 5V powersupply (ie. any USB charger) - plugs into pretty much any old TV through AV plugs - so can easily be setup.

I've used on in a small bartop and it runs the games good and has a decent menu system for selecting games. ( got the idea from another forum member that was also building one using it ) Not sure what the licensing is like on them but would think as long as you are not charging people to play the thing it should be fine since it is using an officially licensed game system just with some improvements and are meant to be plugged into a tv and played so don't see why it couldn't be used.

Links to my build and the other similar one that inspired it ( Pretty sure someone else used one in a VIgolix build but don't remember the link)

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,139689.msg1444799.html#msg1444799

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,136983.msg1412745.html#msg1412745
 


Awesome suggestion as well.  The only part I'd need extra research on is the battery to 5V powersupply.  Based on what you're saying it's not that hard to wire the power differently.  I'd use an LCD and I'm guessing an analog to digital converter will do the job.

And yes, I'm not charging people to play the games.

The easiest method to change it from battery to the 5v would be to just use a USB charging brick ( or USB jack from the LCD screen - it's just 2 wires ( since there is no data transfer) so you just disconnect the battery pack wires and solder them into the 2 power wires from a USB cord - then plug that into the USB socket of either the screen or a USB power Brick ( Phone charger) - So actually very simple to do ( I used a Voltage regulator to convert the 12V power from my AC power brick for the monitor just to not have to use a USB brick also but that is not really needed if you have the space inside the cabinet to run both power sources.

IF you look around you can find LCD panels that have Video input ( for example the Dell 2001FP or Dell 2007FP are 20 inch 4:3 monitors with an rca video connection and can be found relatively cheap - FOr example ArrowDirect.com has one for $57.95 shipped and they have a code right now ( EXTRA20 ) which gives you a 20% discount so $46.36 + tax (if you live in a state they have a warehouse) -- https://www.arrowdirect.com/dell-2007fpb-20-widescreen-screen-1600-x-1200-resolution-grade-b/

« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 02:35:50 pm by JDFan »

Mike A

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Re: Want your thoughts on this concept design for commercial use BYOAC
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2018, 02:38:44 pm »
So in other words, you actually didn't care about the legality of it if that meant you couldn't do what you want to do. ;D


ZTylerDurden717

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Re: Want your thoughts on this concept design for commercial use BYOAC
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2018, 03:30:02 pm »
So in other words, you actually didn't care about the legality of it if that meant you couldn't do what you want to do. ;D

I do care, that's why my project is melting faster than a snow cone at Disney.  I'll have to keep it for personal use if I purchase an individual license.


The easiest method to change it from battery to the 5v would be to just use a USB charging brick ( or USB jack from the LCD screen - it's just 2 wires ( since there is no data transfer) so you just disconnect the battery pack wires and solder them into the 2 power wires from a USB cord - then plug that into the USB socket of either the screen or a USB power Brick ( Phone charger) - So actually very simple to do ( I used a Voltage regulator to convert the 12V power from my AC power brick for the monitor just to not have to use a USB brick also but that is not really needed if you have the space inside the cabinet to run both power sources.

IF you look around you can find LCD panels that have Video input ( for example the Dell 2001FP or Dell 2007FP are 20 inch 4:3 monitors with an rca video connection and can be found relatively cheap - FOr example ArrowDirect.com has one for $57.95 shipped and they have a code right now ( EXTRA20 ) which gives you a 20% discount so $46.36 + tax (if you live in a state they have a warehouse) -- https://www.arrowdirect.com/dell-2007fpb-20-widescreen-screen-1600-x-1200-resolution-grade-b/



Awesome, I can definitely try this.  I wouldn't have found this solution myself!

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Re: Want your thoughts on this concept design for commercial use BYOAC
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2018, 05:31:36 pm »
Just put a 60 in 1 and get it over with.  Nobody will play it no matter what you put inside.




ZTylerDurden717

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Re: Want your thoughts on this concept design for commercial use BYOAC
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2018, 06:22:35 pm »
Just put a 60 in 1 and get it over with.  Nobody will play it no matter what you put inside.

Truer words haven't been spoken.  Gotta have retro games though.

  
 

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