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Author Topic: Control for Sinistar - advice please!  (Read 1693 times)

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goonergaz

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Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« on: August 22, 2018, 07:17:55 am »
Ok, so long story short...

I've always loved Sinistar but sucked badly. I recently had a session on my MAME cabinet and was frustrated due to the poor controls - I thought I must be doing something wrong and looked for some tips.

I then discovered Sinistar uses a different joystick (I never knew this!) - anyway, a quick look suggests buying anything like good enough will be ~100 which seems excessive for one game I will rarely play...so I have these questions;

1) Do other games benefit form this joystick
2) If I did get a 49 way joystick could I just use it as my default player 1 joystick? (I have a 2 play cabinet)
3) Would I be better off just buying a PC joystick and just using for this game?

I'm completely open to advise/suggestions. It would be really great to replay this close to the original...I bought a proper trackball for a dozen games and have components to build a spinner for a few others than utilise it, I feel this is probably the last piece of the jigsaw?

Thanks in advance for any input :)

Jimbo

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2018, 08:19:08 am »
Have you looked at an Ultimarc U360 joystick?

paigeoliver

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2018, 05:20:08 pm »
Many, many years ago I built a single stick cabinet with a 49-way (from Arch Rivals) and the interface that was available for them back then.  I literally took it to auction the next day but it seemed pretty decent in test games. Would probably be terrible for fighters though.
Acceptance of Zen philosophy is marred slightly by the nagging thought that if all things are interconnected, then all things must be in some way involved with Pauly Shore.

goonergaz

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2018, 04:42:56 am »
Have you looked at an Ultimarc U360 joystick?

I will look into this ta, I did find an old thread where a bit of debate went on about how good these actually were. I'm not an expert at this by any means...I think the main issue I would face is that (from what I can gather) these joysticks (and indeed Sinistar) had a joystick with resistance - as such it would affect the gameplay of other games. I'm beginning to think I may just have to go down the 'PC joystick route' unless I'm maybe overthinking it?

Many, many years ago I built a single stick cabinet with a 49-way (from Arch Rivals) and the interface that was available for them back then.  I literally took it to auction the next day but it seemed pretty decent in test games. Would probably be terrible for fighters though.

Cheers. I'm not into fighters so that's not an issue. My concern (as mentioned above) is I need a '49-way/analogue type' joystick with resistance to help control one fiddly game! I'm not sure how many other games would benefit so? I wonder if it's possible to remove the spring (or replace with one of little tension) and make something that could fit around the joystick to add resistance when I play the odd game that needs it?

paigeoliver

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2018, 12:47:00 pm »
Oh, don't worry about the resistance bit. The joystick I used (Arch Rivals) had that too and it actually felt great. Rubber resistance feels way better overall than spring based resistance does, which is why people love Wico joysticks so much.
Acceptance of Zen philosophy is marred slightly by the nagging thought that if all things are interconnected, then all things must be in some way involved with Pauly Shore.

negative1

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2018, 01:35:39 pm »
i love sinistar. i've been playing it on and off since it came out in the arcades,
i took a break for about 20 years, but have been playing it more lately in the last 5 or so years.

but all this talk of joysticks is a moot point.

i've played on orignal machine and hit 300k, i've used an 8 way joystick on pc mame and hit about the same 300k
http://replay.marpirc.net/r/sinistar2

i've used analog sticks on the xbox 360, and xbox one and hit 150k.

my point is this game is by far, the hardest arcade game i've ever played on default settings, and the choice
of joystick really doesn't make any difference.

i can play a real arcade game, and die in 2 minutes, and play it on the pc and last for 5.

the only reason to get a real 49 way stick is if you want to preserve the arcade machine.

i've played using savestates, up to 10 million on default settings,
the game maxes out at level 127. but most people will never get
to round 4.

the game will crush you no matter what joystick you use.

later
-1
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 01:42:19 pm by negative1 »

paigeoliver

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2018, 07:13:50 pm »
I have actually never once managed to accomplish anything in Sinistar other than 90 second games. Mining something, building a bomb? Never happened.
Acceptance of Zen philosophy is marred slightly by the nagging thought that if all things are interconnected, then all things must be in some way involved with Pauly Shore.

yotsuya

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2018, 08:37:13 pm »
I can beat Sinistar once. That makes me happy.
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goonergaz

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2018, 04:08:41 am »
Oh, don't worry about the resistance bit. The joystick I used (Arch Rivals) had that too and it actually felt great. Rubber resistance feels way better overall than spring based resistance does, which is why people love Wico joysticks so much.

Thanks again, it's a good point - the most important thing to me is getting that granular control and removing the frustration of circling the sinibombs! lol

i love sinistar. i've been playing it on and off since it came out in the arcades,
i took a break for about 20 years, but have been playing it more lately in the last 5 or so years.

but all this talk of joysticks is a moot point.

i've played on orignal machine and hit 300k, i've used an 8 way joystick on pc mame and hit about the same 300k
http://replay.marpirc.net/r/sinistar2

i've used analog sticks on the xbox 360, and xbox one and hit 150k.

my point is this game is by far, the hardest arcade game i've ever played on default settings, and the choice
of joystick really doesn't make any difference.

i can play a real arcade game, and die in 2 minutes, and play it on the pc and last for 5.

the only reason to get a real 49 way stick is if you want to preserve the arcade machine.

i've played using savestates, up to 10 million on default settings,
the game maxes out at level 127. but most people will never get
to round 4.

the game will crush you no matter what joystick you use.

later
-1

I appreciate what you're saying, it's not that I want to get high scores - I just want to remove the frustration attached to playing with an 8-way where it makes it incredibly hard to pick up the bombs. I think your previous experience may help you, but I only ever played the odd game.

goonergaz

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2018, 05:40:10 am »
ignore my ignorance!

If anyone could link to specific joysticks I should consider that would be appreciated
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 05:50:50 am by goonergaz »

Sky25es

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2018, 07:05:14 am »
Ultimarc U360 ?

goonergaz

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2018, 07:28:43 am »
Ultimarc U360 ?

I assume the U means UltraStik? So one of these?:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/371995718710?chn=ps

Out of interest, if I bought 2 (for my 2 player cabinet) would I be able to configure Robotron to work with the 2 joysticks?

And if I added one of these I could use it as a spinner?

http://www.ultimarc.com/rotaryjoy.pdf

« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 09:02:35 am by goonergaz »

negative1

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2018, 12:38:52 pm »

I appreciate what you're saying, it's not that I want to get high scores - I just want to remove the frustration attached to playing with an 8-way where it makes it incredibly hard to pick up the bombs. I think your previous experience may help you, but I only ever played the odd game.

i think, that whatever joystick you get, just get used to it.

it might make a marginal difference or improvement with a 'real' proper arcade stick, but in the end, that difference is so slight,
it negates anything that you might perceive.

that's what i was getting at.

if people could improve at this game by playing longer, then yes, by all means get a real stick.

unfortunately, the random elements of the game can kill of the most experienced person in minutes.

my friend bought an actual arcade cabinet of this for $300 mint, during the videogame crash era of the 80's,
and he never once got past the 2nd board without changing the settings. he also bought crystal castles for
the same price (mint), and never finished that either.

it's not that he was bad at videogames, he just happened to buy them because they looked cool and were cheap.
but i was the one always playing them and putting up the high scores.

later
-1

MydknyteStyrm

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2018, 03:35:53 pm »
Ultrastik 360 would be my suggestion as well. I use four of them on my 4p CP, and you can set the control via UltraMap to change with each game. Sinistar I use a analog setting which makes it really easy to play, then I can switch two sticks to 8 way for fighting games and Robotron/SmashTV, and four way for PacMan and DK, and even diagonal for QBert. Makes your CP play a lot of games without switching servos or restrictors.


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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2018, 05:20:05 pm »

I assume the U means UltraStik? So one of these?:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/371995718710?chn=ps

Correct   :)

Out of interest, if I bought 2 (for my 2 player cabinet) would I be able to configure Robotron to work with the 2 joysticks?

And if I added one of these I could use it as a spinner?

http://www.ultimarc.com/rotaryjoy.pdf

The Ultrastik 360 is a great all-around joystick. As already mentioned above, it can easily be configured to act as an analog, 8-way, 4-way, even as a diagonal 4-way (Qbert) stick and of course, Robotron will work very well with a pair of those.

The rotary option is a matter of personal taste if you like rotary stick games (i.e. Ikari Warriors), but it seems that some games that were originally designed to be played with mechanical rotary sticks aren't easy to configure (or playable ?) cause U360's add-on is optical.

As for the spinner question: Hmm.. I think it would be too difficult to play Spinner/Paddle games with it. It's like to drive a car with a giant rotating Chupa Chups Lollypop instead of a wheel. Just my 2 cents  ;)

goonergaz

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2018, 04:52:46 am »
Ultrastik 360 would be my suggestion as well. I use four of them on my 4p CP, and you can set the control via UltraMap to change with each game. Sinistar I use a analog setting which makes it really easy to play, then I can switch two sticks to 8 way for fighting games and Robotron/SmashTV, and four way for PacMan and DK, and even diagonal for QBert. Makes your CP play a lot of games without switching servos or restrictors.

Nice, thanks...looks like I fell into the old 'pay cheap pay twice' trap with the old joysticks...oh well!


The Ultrastik 360 is a great all-around joystick. As already mentioned above, it can easily be configured to act as an analog, 8-way, 4-way, even as a diagonal 4-way (Qbert) stick and of course, Robotron will work very well with a pair of those.

The rotary option is a matter of personal taste if you like rotary stick games (i.e. Ikari Warriors), but it seems that some games that were originally designed to be played with mechanical rotary sticks aren't easy to configure (or playable ?) cause U360's add-on is optical.

As for the spinner question: Hmm.. I think it would be too difficult to play Spinner/Paddle games with it. It's like to drive a car with a giant rotating Chupa Chups Lollypop instead of a wheel. Just my 2 cents  ;)

Thanks again, and I see your point regarding the spinner (I was my concern so was interested to hear feedback). Looks like I may have to look into my options anyway...what with it being 2P with trackball there's little space...anyway food for thought!


Thanks everyone for your help :)

Sky25es

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2018, 10:15:49 am »

Thanks again, and I see your point regarding the spinner (I was my concern so was interested to hear feedback). Looks like I may have to look into my options anyway...what with it being 2P with trackball there's little space...anyway food for thought!


Thanks everyone for your help :)

Take a look at the Control Panel Database on the main section of this forum. There are a lot of great examples.  ;)

pixel

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2018, 04:02:08 am »
Ok, so long story short...

I've always loved Sinistar but sucked badly. I recently had a session on my MAME cabinet and was frustrated due to the poor controls - I thought I must be doing something wrong and looked for some tips.

I then discovered Sinistar uses a different joystick (I never knew this!) - anyway, a quick look suggests buying anything like good enough will be ~100 which seems excessive for one game I will rarely play...so I have these questions;

1) Do other games benefit form this joystick
2) If I did get a 49 way joystick could I just use it as my default player 1 joystick? (I have a 2 play cabinet)
3) Would I be better off just buying a PC joystick and just using for this game?

I'm completely open to advise/suggestions. It would be really great to replay this close to the original...I bought a proper trackball for a dozen games and have components to build a spinner for a few others than utilise it, I feel this is probably the last piece of the jigsaw?

Thanks in advance for any input :)


1)  There are very few games that utilized 49 way sticks.  I believe a few are:  Arch Rivals, Food Fight,  (NFL Blitz... however, this uses a different type of stick)

2)  Sinistar's  49way stick,  will not be optimal for most other games.

3)  That depends...


  In the past,  I made a modified PC analog joystick, to play this game.  I made a rubber "X" spring system... out of a bike tires inner-tube.

 I had cut the plastic shaft mostly off,  and made a Pin to attach a metal shaft to the original shafts shortened end.
 Then I epoxy'd a Ball-Top on the metal shaft end.

 The "x" spring was placed between the joystick assembly... and the metal mounting plate I had made for it.

 I used Grommets to keep the rubber X together,  and for the mounting holes... to keep the rubber from shredding apart.

 I think I may have had to use a total of 4 strips  (two for each line),  to get the proper resistance I desired.


 In the end... it worked even smoother than the original Arcade 49 way stick.   It also was good to use on many other Analog games.

 Despite those saying the game can be played with an 8 way digital stick... they are out of their minds.


 Sinistar was designed to have a very high range of speed control.  To accomplish this... the rubber spider "x"  spring... multiplies the resistance
the further you are out from the center of the stick.   It also eliminates the need for a large "Dead-Zone"... which is typically needed on spring
based joysticks... as the springs can interfere with fine control in the center.. as well as can be off-center, due to wear of the springs.

 The mechanical advantages allows you to be able to easily mine, dodge, and collect crystals very delicately.. at slow speeds... and in an instant..
you can go full throttle... moving at near warp speed... to avoid danger,  or find another asteroid.  Its absolutely genius.


 The game is Insanely difficult,  even with the original controller.   I know I have defeated 3 Sinistars... and actually... I think I once
even beat the 4th... which was a damn miracle.   To do this... I first practiced in mame using an invincibility cheat... to get a good feel for
the levels and strategies.  After that... I turned off cheats... and was eventually able to get to the 4th wave or so... on my own.

 After that,  however... it seemed like there is a wall of pure impossibility.   The enemies are too fast... and Sinistar gets built way too
quickly...  far to soon to be able to collect enough crystals.

 Tip:  Make sure to mine fast, and fully fill your capacity of bombs.   When Sinistar shows... make sure not to bomb him until he is as close as
can be...  otherwise,  a bomb may fly into a different enemy... wasting it.   Also.. do not fire bombs until they run out.  Only use as
many bombs as needed.. to destroy him.    Exiting the level with the most bombs left.. means less mining to do.  Because the intensity gets
harder each round... you will need as many bombs left from the previous round... as possible.


goonergaz

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2018, 08:42:38 am »
Ok, so long story short...

I've always loved Sinistar but sucked badly. I recently had a session on my MAME cabinet and was frustrated due to the poor controls - I thought I must be doing something wrong and looked for some tips.

I then discovered Sinistar uses a different joystick (I never knew this!) - anyway, a quick look suggests buying anything like good enough will be ~100 which seems excessive for one game I will rarely play...so I have these questions;

1) Do other games benefit form this joystick
2) If I did get a 49 way joystick could I just use it as my default player 1 joystick? (I have a 2 play cabinet)
3) Would I be better off just buying a PC joystick and just using for this game?

I'm completely open to advise/suggestions. It would be really great to replay this close to the original...I bought a proper trackball for a dozen games and have components to build a spinner for a few others than utilise it, I feel this is probably the last piece of the jigsaw?

Thanks in advance for any input :)


1)  There are very few games that utilized 49 way sticks.  I believe a few are:  Arch Rivals, Food Fight,  (NFL Blitz... however, this uses a different type of stick)

2)  Sinistar's  49way stick,  will not be optimal for most other games.

3)  That depends...


  In the past,  I made a modified PC analog joystick, to play this game.  I made a rubber "X" spring system... out of a bike tires inner-tube.

 I had cut the plastic shaft mostly off,  and made a Pin to attach a metal shaft to the original shafts shortened end.
 Then I epoxy'd a Ball-Top on the metal shaft end.

 The "x" spring was placed between the joystick assembly... and the metal mounting plate I had made for it.

 I used Grommets to keep the rubber X together,  and for the mounting holes... to keep the rubber from shredding apart.

 I think I may have had to use a total of 4 strips  (two for each line),  to get the proper resistance I desired.


 In the end... it worked even smoother than the original Arcade 49 way stick.   It also was good to use on many other Analog games.

 Despite those saying the game can be played with an 8 way digital stick... they are out of their minds.


 Sinistar was designed to have a very high range of speed control.  To accomplish this... the rubber spider "x"  spring... multiplies the resistance
the further you are out from the center of the stick.   It also eliminates the need for a large "Dead-Zone"... which is typically needed on spring
based joysticks... as the springs can interfere with fine control in the center.. as well as can be off-center, due to wear of the springs.

 The mechanical advantages allows you to be able to easily mine, dodge, and collect crystals very delicately.. at slow speeds... and in an instant..
you can go full throttle... moving at near warp speed... to avoid danger,  or find another asteroid.  Its absolutely genius.


 The game is Insanely difficult,  even with the original controller.   I know I have defeated 3 Sinistars... and actually... I think I once
even beat the 4th... which was a damn miracle.   To do this... I first practiced in mame using an invincibility cheat... to get a good feel for
the levels and strategies.  After that... I turned off cheats... and was eventually able to get to the 4th wave or so... on my own.

 After that,  however... it seemed like there is a wall of pure impossibility.   The enemies are too fast... and Sinistar gets built way too
quickly...  far to soon to be able to collect enough crystals.

 Tip:  Make sure to mine fast, and fully fill your capacity of bombs.   When Sinistar shows... make sure not to bomb him until he is as close as
can be...  otherwise,  a bomb may fly into a different enemy... wasting it.   Also.. do not fire bombs until they run out.  Only use as
many bombs as needed.. to destroy him.    Exiting the level with the most bombs left.. means less mining to do.  Because the intensity gets
harder each round... you will need as many bombs left from the previous round... as possible.

Thanks so much for spending the time to post this - it's really appreciated :)

negative1

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2018, 03:52:45 pm »

 Despite those saying the game can be played with an 8 way digital stick... they are out of their minds.


i've gotten several 300k+ scores using an 8 way stick, and never with a 49 way arcade stick
(although i wasn't as good at it, when i last played one in an arcade).

i can hit 200k with an xbox controller....   all of these are on the hard default settings.

so, yes, you can play with an 8 way stick. as i mentioned for most people it won't matter,
because unless you want to master it, you will never notice the nuances that you mentioned.

later
-1

goonergaz

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2018, 10:32:24 am »

 Despite those saying the game can be played with an 8 way digital stick... they are out of their minds.


i've gotten several 300k+ scores using an 8 way stick, and never with a 49 way arcade stick
(although i wasn't as good at it, when i last played one in an arcade).

i can hit 200k with an xbox controller....   all of these are on the hard default settings.

so, yes, you can play with an 8 way stick. as i mentioned for most people it won't matter,
because unless you want to master it, you will never notice the nuances that you mentioned.

later
-1

I don't understand because with 8 way the ship moves full speed in the direction you push, this makes picking up bombs a nightmare, you end up circling the things. With the 49-way/analogue controls you have fine control so you can move slowly and make small adjustments...it's so much easier.

I don't disagree that 'analogue' games are playable with digital controls - hell I've played Tron, Marble Madness & Tehkan World Cup with reasonable success...but it's not the real deal and adding analogue definitely will improve the experience.

negative1

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2018, 02:25:35 pm »

 Despite those saying the game can be played with an 8 way digital stick... they are out of their minds.


i've gotten several 300k+ scores using an 8 way stick, and never with a 49 way arcade stick
(although i wasn't as good at it, when i last played one in an arcade).

i can hit 200k with an xbox controller....   all of these are on the hard default settings.

so, yes, you can play with an 8 way stick. as i mentioned for most people it won't matter,
because unless you want to master it, you will never notice the nuances that you mentioned.

later
-1

I don't understand because with 8 way the ship moves full speed in the direction you push, this makes picking up bombs a nightmare, you end up circling the things. With the 49-way/analogue controls you have fine control so you can move slowly and make small adjustments...it's so much easier.

I don't disagree that 'analogue' games are playable with digital controls - hell I've played Tron, Marble Madness & Tehkan World Cup with reasonable success...but it's not the real deal and adding analogue definitely will improve the experience.

sure, but like i said, you just have to get used to it.
here's my 370k gameplay on youtube, using an 8 way sega saturn joystick-> USB on a pc using MAME (default settings).

parts 1 and 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-TFOb5Z3ho
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RROx26_vb8

i also have video of a million points (using savestates), and getting to level 127.

here is another player getting 320k using MAME and an 8 way joystick also, read all his notes about gameplay:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9ONB4fDdlk

later
-1
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 03:02:05 pm by negative1 »

pixel

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2018, 01:11:22 am »
 :lol :lol :lol

 LOL  -  I Just watched one of your Vids.   No wonder you found it easy,  and got so far!    You have some sort of
Auto-Fire Cheat!!!    Id say you are firing about 3 times or more... the standard rate!  >__<   lol


 Try again,  without the cheat,  on the standard difficulty level.  Its unlikely you will get past level 3 without an Analog
controller Minimum + A LOT of practice... and a boatload of luck.   (No savestates either... thats just as bad)

negative1

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2018, 12:23:13 pm »
:lol :lol :lol

 LOL  -  I Just watched one of your Vids.   No wonder you found it easy,  and got so far!    You have some sort of
Auto-Fire Cheat!!!    Id say you are firing about 3 times or more... the standard rate!  >__<   lol


 Try again,  without the cheat,  on the standard difficulty level.  Its unlikely you will get past level 3 without an Analog
controller Minimum + A LOT of practice... and a boatload of luck.   (No savestates either... thats just as bad)

wrong. completely wrong.

the autofire is option built into the game.


the game was done using default settings.
here's my mame Verified replay game, getting 335k:
http://replay.marpirc.net/r/sinistar2

i've gotten those scores without it too.

the savestates were used to explore the levels
that no one will ever get too.

if you don't believe my scores, the other player
used the same defaults without the autofire option,
and still got that far.

playing with an 8 way stick is just as easy or easier to do,
and still get high scores.

just get over the fact, you don't need the original joystick
to get highscores. it's already been done without them.

later
-1
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 12:57:48 pm by negative1 »

Mike A

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2018, 12:29:56 pm »
It is called continuous fire in the PCB setup. I believe it is enabled by default.

negative1

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2018, 12:52:43 pm »
It is called continuous fire in the PCB setup. I believe it is enabled by default.

thank you,
yes its the default : instruction manual:
=
https://www.arcade-museum.com/manuals-videogames/S/sinistar-inst-manual.pdf
page 10

and ingame:
-------------


case closed.

later
-1
« Last Edit: September 06, 2018, 12:54:25 pm by negative1 »

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2018, 02:21:10 pm »

Just out of curiosity, is MAME's auto-fire rate the same as the one in the dip switches for the ROM?

From memory, it seems a bit fast to me as well.  But I could be mistaken.   

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2018, 04:14:21 pm »

Just out of curiosity, is MAME's auto-fire rate the same as the one in the dip switches for the ROM?

From memory, it seems a bit fast to me as well.  But I could be mistaken.

yes,
but you have to remember, there are different roms.

2 different versions and a prototype.

i've played all the versions extensively, and with different options,
and haven't noticed a difference.

later
-1

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2018, 03:31:11 pm »

I'm thinking that you have the MAME autofire on, or an external one.  There is a marked difference in the firing rate between your videos and the other that you posted, where he explicitly stated that it was not used. 

Autofire is a tremendous advantage with this game, and the correct joystick, while certainly not a necessity, definitely makes the game considerably less taxing on the player.  I.e. if you can do well with an 8-way, you should be able to do much better with a 49-way, or at least without nearly as much fatigue.


pixel

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2018, 07:24:09 pm »
Thanks Randy.

 Yes, he explicitly states he was using Hardware-Based Autofire (a special controller that has an Auto-Fire switch)
in one of his vids... and its Easily visible, due to the insane fire-rate of his shots... and the pure and utter carnage
that results.

 Sinistar has game-based Auto-fire by default... however... if a player manually fires... they can conceivably fire
faster than the "set" Auto-Fire rate.   This is a typical standard, on many games made in the 80s.

 Part of it, is due to a the limitations of on-screen objects.   If you had something like 5 bullets on-screen,
in Asteroids Deluxe... the game would not allow you to fire again, until a target was hit... or a bullet flew off-screen.
There was a set max amount of bullets per screen allowed...   Yet.. if you hit targets quickly and accurately... the
player was somewhat rewarded by a faster reload / fire-rate... as the hit would free up a new bullet.

 Trying to fire rapidly by hand... is typically fatiguing... unless you have an original  Leaf-switch button, and know
how to "Feather" it.

 Even then... Sinistar was so Hectic... that most players tended to just hold down the fire button,  and allow the
game to use its pre-set fire-rate.   Most tended to Only fire the SiniBombs, Manually.


Where as in a game like Haley's Comet... it pretty much requires the user to fire by-hand,  all the time...  else
the player would never be able to get half of the power-ups needed... to be able to deal with the enemy
difficulty / density... etc.

 The game actually rewards the player for pushing the limits...  and penalized those whom utilize the set-rate...
or fire at a slower pace / rate than the set autofire rate.


 Sinistar can not easily be played with an 8 way Digital controller setup... because the game is specifically
balanced for high-resolution / high-precision, speed control.   Part of this is achieved with analog pots.. but...
unlike many Pot based joysticks... Sinistar took it to a whole other level.

 You see... to maintain compatibility... many modern games allow the use of Digital or Analog controls.  To be able
to achieve this... they tend to reduce the importance of the Analog range.   They tend to eliminate the middle area
of the joystick...via software... via a "Dead-Zone".   Within this defined zone.. the values are completely Ignored.

 Furthermore... the game may reduce the speed and acceleration values that are associated with the Analog
values.   Rather than a 1 to 50 range...  they may reduce it to a 1 to 5 range.   The amount the character
may move per each tick of defined Range... is also programatical.   It could be Formulaic.  Where as each tick is
multiplied by a certain Factorol value.    IE:   Rather than a gradual increase of speed:  1,2,3,4,5..
it could instead be something my dynamic... such as:    1,3,15,55, 200, 800.

 The latter would produce a much greater speed burst effect,  as well as a higher maximum speed potential.

 While you would think that Greater Analog Range would be desired and expected in modern games...
its actually the Opposite... because they want to remain more compatible with the hardware itself... as well as the
Digital player controls.

 A digital player will not be able to represent a 1 to 1000  Instant Acceleration rate... and at the same time...
allow for gradual and small increments.    They tend to program digital inputs as formulaic SIMULATED analog.
Meaning... that if you hold a button for a certain amount of time... the Algorithm gradually runs up the values,
simulating an analog Curve.   The problem is... that the analog curve is always "SET" in stone.  Its not
able to be user-altered... and so will never be able to match a true Dynamic Analog controller.

 As such... the only way to keep them relatively similar... is to reduce a true Analog Controllers value
range... and to programatically simulate an Analog curve... based on Hold-Down-Time.


 All that said... the biggest problem is actually the Mechanics of a typical Analog Controller.   Most especially the
mini-thumb sticks.   You have far too much leverage... and once the initial spring tension is overcome... the stick is
too "slippery"... and you end up moving the stick to the furthest ends of the sticks travel... rather than staying
within the "short".. and "middle-ranges",  with superior precision / accuracy.

 This is amplified by the Type of resistance the controller gives you.   With normal analog controllers springs...
you have a set resistance level.  Once you go past that level... its like ICE... with Zero resistance at all.

 In Sinistar... the stick uses a Rubber centering system... that had 4 legs in an "X" shape.   If you move left...
you are actually pulling against 3 opposing legs of the spider.   Because they are all linked... the resistance
forces are Vastly MULTIPLIED by a factor of at least 3 times... and that factor increases Dramatically, the
further the stick is pushed from the center.    As such... it becomes Extremely difficult to push the stick to
the furthest ends of the stick... making it easier to keep the ship from zooming at Mach 5, accidentally.

 Instead... you can easily stay at slow speed and vector controls... to pick up crystals,  easily.  Yet.. if things
get hot.. you can press heavily... and ramp up to mach 3, 4,  or 5... depending on your level of pressure.


 The easier way to put it... is to compare a Brake Pedal of a Car... to the Accelerator.
Or one of those Mini-Analog stick mice controllers on a laptop... to a traditional mouse / joystick.


 But you really probably will never understand... until you have actually played with.. and compared, the actual
controller types.

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2018, 10:35:33 pm »

I'm thinking that you have the MAME autofire on, or an external one.  There is a marked difference in the firing rate between your videos and the other that you posted, where he explicitly stated that it was not used. 

Autofire is a tremendous advantage with this game, and the correct joystick, while certainly not a necessity, definitely makes the game considerably less taxing on the player.  I.e. if you can do well with an 8-way, you should be able to do much better with a 49-way, or at least without nearly as much fatigue.

due to variations in pc's, which version of MAME was used, and controllers.

there is going to be variations across all the emulated versions.

i can only account for the versions i used, and since it was done awhile ago,
i don't even use the same configuration.

i've noticed that other emulated versions:
SNES
GENESIS
PS1/X
PS2
XBOX
XBOX 360 -> williams arcade
XBOX ONE -> williams arcade

all run way too fast, even compared to the arcade version, and the high scores suffer on all of them.

the last leaderboard i saw for the xbox 360 version, had a high score around 270k.


every single one of those emulated versions used either an 8 way dpad, an analog stick
on later consoles, and they're just as playable on those also.

unfortunately even the arcade ports run too fast.

the MAME version might try to emulate the arcades autofire, but until someone plays around
with the settings on a real machine and does some calculations. we won't know for sure.

later
-1

pixel

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2018, 11:42:34 pm »

I'm thinking that you have the MAME autofire on, or an external one.  There is a marked difference in the firing rate between your videos and the other that you posted, where he explicitly stated that it was not used. 

Autofire is a tremendous advantage with this game, and the correct joystick, while certainly not a necessity, definitely makes the game considerably less taxing on the player.  I.e. if you can do well with an 8-way, you should be able to do much better with a 49-way, or at least without nearly as much fatigue.

due to variations in pc's, which version of MAME was used, and controllers.

there is going to be variations across all the emulated versions.

i can only account for the versions i used, and since it was done awhile ago,
i don't even use the same configuration.

i've noticed that other emulated versions:
SNES
GENESIS
PS1/X
PS2
XBOX
XBOX 360 -> williams arcade
XBOX ONE -> williams arcade

all run way too fast, even compared to the arcade version, and the high scores suffer on all of them.

the last leaderboard i saw for the xbox 360 version, had a high score around 270k.


every single one of those emulated versions used either an 8 way dpad, an analog stick
on later consoles, and they're just as playable on those also.

unfortunately even the arcade ports run too fast.

the MAME version might try to emulate the arcades autofire, but until someone plays around
with the settings on a real machine and does some calculations. we won't know for sure.

later
-1

 Dude... be a damn Man,  and Own up to your own  BS!

 You damn right know you used an Auto-fire switch on your Controller,  ...as you specifically stated it on your video!

 I could have easily discerned it... without your own self admission... as its WAY too obvious!  >_<

 As for comparing Ports... thats lame as hell.   Ports have NOTHING to do with the Arcade original.

 As for comparing Arcade Versions in mame...  thats also Lame.   All of the versions in mame, have the same approximate
fire rate.

 Does mame play faster than the arcade?   Not that I had experienced... unless there is a recent Bug!


 Face the facts dude... You are Wrong.
 

negative1

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2018, 11:11:05 am »

I'm thinking that you have the MAME autofire on, or an external one.  There is a marked difference in the firing rate between your videos and the other that you posted, where he explicitly stated that it was not used. 

Autofire is a tremendous advantage with this game, and the correct joystick, while certainly not a necessity, definitely makes the game considerably less taxing on the player.  I.e. if you can do well with an 8-way, you should be able to do much better with a 49-way, or at least without nearly as much fatigue.

due to variations in pc's, which version of MAME was used, and controllers.

there is going to be variations across all the emulated versions.

i can only account for the versions i used, and since it was done awhile ago,
i don't even use the same configuration.

i've noticed that other emulated versions:
SNES
GENESIS
PS1/X
PS2
XBOX
XBOX 360 -> williams arcade
XBOX ONE -> williams arcade

all run way too fast, even compared to the arcade version, and the high scores suffer on all of them.

the last leaderboard i saw for the xbox 360 version, had a high score around 270k.


every single one of those emulated versions used either an 8 way dpad, an analog stick
on later consoles, and they're just as playable on those also.

unfortunately even the arcade ports run too fast.

the MAME version might try to emulate the arcades autofire, but until someone plays around
with the settings on a real machine and does some calculations. we won't know for sure.

later
-1

 Dude... be a damn Man,  and Own up to your own  BS!

 You damn right know you used an Auto-fire switch on your Controller,  ...as you specifically stated it on your video!

 I could have easily discerned it... without your own self admission... as its WAY too obvious!  >_<

 As for comparing Ports... thats lame as hell.   Ports have NOTHING to do with the Arcade original.

 As for comparing Arcade Versions in mame...  thats also Lame.   All of the versions in mame, have the same approximate
fire rate.

 Does mame play faster than the arcade?   Not that I had experienced... unless there is a recent Bug!


 Face the facts dude... You are Wrong.

where did i say any of that. i said i used the auto fire default in the settings on MAME,
i think i know what i used. even MARP (who verifies scores) approved it.

ports have everything to do with the game, as the latter ones are actually
close to the emulation used, digital eclipse wrote those. some may use
the arcade roms, but due to emulation issues, they run faster than
the arcade ports.

MAME emulation is different, and the only thing i did say,
was i used the prototype ROM, which is actually harder
to play than the standard default one.

i don't really care if you think i used something i didn't.

just face it, i'm better than the vast majority of people out there
that think they can play this game. i know that, and that's all
that matters to me.

===========================================

the point is, the game IS playable with an 8 way stick, period.

thats the last i have to say on this subject.

later
-1

pixel

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2018, 03:22:04 pm »
Quote
where did i say any of that. i said i used the auto fire default in the settings on MAME,
i think i know what i used. even MARP (who verifies scores) approved it.

ports have everything to do with the game, as the latter ones are actually
close to the emulation used, digital eclipse wrote those. some may use
the arcade roms, but due to emulation issues, they run faster than
the arcade ports.

MAME emulation is different, and the only thing i did say,
was i used the prototype ROM, which is actually harder
to play than the standard default one.

i don't really care if you think i used something i didn't.

just face it, i'm better than the vast majority of people out there
that think they can play this game. i know that, and that's all
that matters to me.

===========================================

the point is, the game IS playable with an 8 way stick, period.

thats the last i have to say on this subject.

later
-1

 Dude... Im fully aware of the differences in Sinistar.  Im 45 yrs old...  and was playing it often in the Arcades,
when I was a child.

 Why even bother bringing up Ports?!  Ports are Garbage, plain and simple.  As are many of the Console based emulators.

 I have a vast mame collection,  and am familiar with each variant of Sinistar.  Ive played / tried them all.  The fire-rate is
not discernible between each of these sets...  and is Not even CLOSE to the ridiculous fire rate that Im seeing in your vids!  >_<

 You are using some sort of hardware Autofire on your controller... Or.. have enabled some crazy cheat option... or some
other setting you have is totally pooched.   Delete the NVram, and any other mame settings...  and try again,  without
the Autofire  /  Cheats.

 You are certain NOT better than the vast majority of people... unless you are making that claim,  without cheating.
Anyone could do what you did... with that Ludicrious fire rate!  lol

 And so.. No... the game is not actually playable with a digital 8way, unless you are a cheater.
Its barely playable with a standard Long-Shaft Analog Stick... and even less so with an Analog Thumbstick.

Mr. Peabody

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2018, 06:16:28 am »
U360 works pretty well for Sinistar....but doesn't Sinistar have degrees of speed relative to the distance pressed? If so, is this not being replicated with an analog/pseudo-analog stick? The other thing is 49-way detection spaces are spiraled and non-square, which means a staggered/offset line of direction, and angled regions of detection.

Also, does the detection layout accommodate how the hand manipulates the stick?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 06:18:56 am by Mr. Peabody »

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2018, 02:11:21 pm »
U360 works pretty well for Sinistar....but doesn't Sinistar have degrees of speed relative to the distance pressed? If so, is this not being replicated with an analog/pseudo-analog stick? The other thing is 49-way detection spaces are spiraled and non-square, which means a staggered/offset line of direction, and angled regions of detection.

There are 49 possible positions for a 49-way stick.  Each will have a direction and speed associated with them.  An 8-way (well, 9-way to keep it relative) will just give you full speed in any of the 8 directions or stop.  Analog sticks will approximate a 49-way with an appropriate map, but the feel of rubber grommet centering will provide better control than sticks with a different centering mechanism.  The original had a rubber centering spider, which is like having 4 heavy rubber bands, which provide progressively more resistance, the further the stick is pushed in any direction.  This has the effect of offering finer control at lower speeds (useful for picking up the pieces while mining the asteroids) while still being able to move at higher speeds to evade, etc...  A rubber grommet does this as well, but it's not exactly the same feel.

Not sure what you mean by "spiraled", but the game was designed specifically for this type of control, and thus cannot use any extra capabilities a different control might offer.

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Re: Control for Sinistar - advice please!
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2018, 11:55:11 pm »
@Randy: my memory of the 49-way mapping is a bit off. It is a grid - with quarter diagonals in the medium spaces, likely the defining control factor. A U360 could handle this if it was reprogrammed for radians. Magenta to the rescue! (Sort of....as the need for +5v along with USB defies comprehension.....)

« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 11:57:16 pm by Mr. Peabody »

  
 

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