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Author Topic: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)  (Read 652 times)

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GameOverYeah

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Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« on: August 17, 2018, 09:23:03 pm »
Hey all,
Ive been busy building a cab over the last few months and have done some intensive testing on the FFB coming out of M2 and into my where base!

After a few phone calls to a store that has an old (working) OG SRC unit and many sleepless / late nights testing a myriad of settings, I'm pretty confident I've identified why the SR FFB in M2 (potentially Daytona etc to) is so poor on the Model 2M@ emulator.

All my testing has lead me to identify that the FFB coming into the base from the emulator (particularly in SRC) is inverted/reversed on 1 channel!

You can test this yourself by doing the following:
Set all FFB settings to the M2 defaults (for consistency but feel free to use your own)
Open the test menu and turn FFB to max on the ROM menu. (again for consistency but feel free to leave this at default)
Turn the FFB to max on your wheel/wheel software. (for consistancy, but feel free to leave it as-is)

Start the game.
Do not move the vehicle!
Turn the wheel left and right and you will notice that the wheel rumbles, jerks, judders as if you are bouncing over a rough surface (violently)

NOW!
begin to move the vehicle.
As soon as you fo, you will notice that as soon as you move, the wheel gets lighter and the FFB stops!
 
ALL FFB / RUMBLE / JERK / JOLTS DISAPPEAR as soon as the vehicle begins to MOVE but is present when the vehicle is stationary!

I have called the store/arcade with the OG SRC Cabinet and asked if they would test this for me, and i can confirm that the the CAB works in the exact opposite manner to how I described!
The CAB has a light feedback when the vehicle is stationary and then rumbles and shakes etc when you begin to move the vehicle!

Therefore it would appear that the game/emulator is giving users 100 max FFB rumble/gravel effect when the vehcile is actually stationary, and gradually reducing this effect as soon as you start moving!

Which is the polar opposite to what it actually should be doing!

Now I can't seem to correct this using the settings provided in the .ini and i have tried numerous settings from here , and have tried a myriad of my own settings from every number and figure conceivable within the parameters (including negative numbers)

Any questions just ask!
I've tested with a myriad of builds, settings, and my cabs are using a mixture of OSW, CSWv2.5 and CSL Elite bases.
I've tried a combination of FFB settings ranging from defaults to virtually every config you can imagine, including the ones posted here and in other forums!

However, its NOT possible to fix the using the emulator or our FFB profiler etc.

Hopefully, now the issue has been identified we can perhaps get a few minds together and see if we can fix it!


« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 10:58:51 am by GameOverYeah »

GameOverYeah

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2018, 11:19:45 am »
Quick Update!

I have been to the north east today and (about 1hr away) and tested SRC Cabinet in the arcade myself :)
I can confirm that the actual cabinet works in the opposite way in which M2 deleivers the rumble effect etc which is also affecting other FFB effects.

I sopke in depth to the arcade owner and he too has had issues with cabinets he as built for personal use.

I also tested a huge array of settings listed here, but noticed that many of them are flawed, broken or unusable.
For example:
The settings found here (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,130376) posted by user Jollywest have a serious anomaly where upon the L/R forces have a disparity in the negative range:
FE_LEFT_Gain=0.5      ;Global gain
FE_RIGHT_Gain=-0.5      ;Global gain

Not only does this go against the direct instructions and user guide posted by M2 it also goes directly against the recommendations of the HTML guide posted here (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=131527.0)

After trying these my OSW / CSL / CSWv2.5 all went absolutely crazy and began banging/pulling themselves violently against one side! I certainly don't recommend these settings for home use!

There are also settings here and all over the forums advising users to run settings higher than the EMU can actually present? This is also incredibly bad, dangerous and pointless.
you can see examples of this here (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=134688.0)
FE_UNCENTERING_Gain=10.0      ;Global gain


And here where someone suggests running gain at 10000 (TEN THOUSAND) :-0 ???
The MAX the emulator actually handles (and recognizes) is a figure of 5.0 and even then is solid clipping!
As you can see here (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=130376.0) this advice is not helping people identify and rectify these FFB issues.
FE_CENTERING_Gain=10000      ;Global gain

After a lot of testing (months trying to figure this out) and finally today getting to use an actual SRC Cabinet i can positively say that the FFB posted here are all incorrect, have invalid numbers, incorrect settings and are all very very very bad advice!

I do have a set of figures that i believe mitigate the issue, but there is nothing we can do to get the correct center/rumble/ffb shake when driving on straights as this is a fundamental issue with the emulator! 

Either the emulator is sending the FFB inverted, or the dip switches are required to invert the signal... OR because we are inverting our accelerator and brake inputs etc this could be affecting the FFB. for example, is entirely possible that this effect is purely canned (i think it is from testing) and was/is activated when the acc pedal is depressed (but confusion arises when the pedal is inverted perhaps? im not sure!) but overall that signal in indeed inverted and we need to reverse how it works!

I am currently testing a middle man FFB software that may resolve the issue. If anyone else is interested in sorting the FFB for all users and providing a solution feel free to join in :)

Boomslang

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2018, 04:51:43 pm »
Hm i can properly look at Sega rally on m2 today and make an alternative ffb plugin to try instead of using m2 ffb

Is it just Sega rally or other games too?

Boomslang

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2018, 08:23:08 pm »
Try this out and see how it compares


One thing i found wierd was hitting walls rotates the wheel opposite to most games, but I noticed the original m2 ffb reacts the same so I guess it's normal


Just copy files into m2 emulator folder (version 1.1a) and turn off EnableFF in EMULATOR.ini to disable the M2 FFB

load emulator_multicpu.exe and then close after a few seconds and check log.txt for your device GUID and copy to FFBPlugin.ini

Turn off Logging in FFBPlugin.ini now and load Sega Rally Championship and try it out

(ive set Min Force=20 in ini atm, change this to modify the strength of lower values. Generally this would be set to 0 but I raised it as strength felt a little low)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 08:26:55 pm by Boomslang »

GameOverYeah

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2018, 08:33:12 pm »
Hm i can properly look at Sega rally on m2 today and make an alternative ffb plugin to try instead of using m2 ffb

Is it just Sega rally or other games too?

Seat Rally is the title I have been focusing in primarily as I'm building a replica cabinet (art work et all) however it's fair to say that the FFB in Daytona etc is also poor.

It's perfectly clear (and very easy to reproduce) to see where the FFB goes wrong on the M2 version of Sega Rally, my issue is I don't know how it can be fixed easily, because as soon as the user accelerates, the FFB output on that rumble Channel is cut... entirely!

It's very easy to test, reproduce, replicate and verify this issue, and it's clear to see the FFB is indeed functioning incorrectly on that specific channel.

The rumble, road texture effect is sublime when the vehicle is stationary, it's perfect (if you rotate the wheel) but as soon as you move the vehicle forward with the accelerator, you loose all road texture and rumble! The effect is CUT entirely from the game. (it should be OFF when stationary and ON when moving like the actual cabinet)

The FFB signal is active when stationary BUT inactive/deactivated when moving

So in short, if you are able to correct Sega Rallys FFB, I'm sure the community would love that, I know I would!

I've been planning this build for a few years now, and was incredibly disappointed to see the cabinet would have to be built with junk ffb due to the error in M2's FFB code, or an error in the dump.

It's a shame there is no other Model 2 emus, 1 line of code in the emulator that allows users to add a line to invert the on/off function to the config ini could solve this entirely!

if we could just invert / reverse the WAY in which the wave/rumble effect works (not its polarity/phase etc or even its effects etc) as It's Not phase related, but just reverse HOW/WHY/WHEN the effect is actually enabled / disabled as currently is backwards.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 08:45:51 pm by GameOverYeah »

GameOverYeah

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2018, 08:37:36 pm »
Try this out and see how it compares


One thing i found wierd was hitting walls rotates the wheel opposite to most games, but I noticed the original m2 ffb reacts the same so I guess it's normal


Just copy files into m2 emulator folder (version 1.1a) and turn off EnableFF in EMULATOR.ini to disable the M2 FFB

load emulator_multicpu.exe and then close after a few seconds and check log.txt for your device GUID and copy to FFBPlugin.ini

Turn off Logging in FFBPlugin.ini now and load Sega Rally Championship and try it out

(ive set Min Force=20 in ini atm, change this to modify the strength of lower values. Generally this would be set to 0 but I raised it as strength felt a little low)

I will try this and report back first thing in the morning... I'm actually considering running down to the basement now and trying it out now... if I wake sleeping beauty next to me though! I'm dead! XD

Boomslang

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2018, 08:45:01 pm »
well I'll tell you now that the FFB address does nothing at all if car is stationary. Value stays at 0 the entire time, turning wheel etc does nothing at all to change that.

I haven't added any spring etc and perhaps the real cabinet has a spring added to steering on a mechanical side or such if the real cabinet has a feeling like that

values only start changing as soon as vehicle moves

GameOverYeah

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2018, 08:51:02 pm »
well I'll tell you now that the FFB address does nothing at all if car is stationary. Value stays at 0 the entire time, turning wheel etc does nothing at all to change that.

I haven't added any spring etc and perhaps the real cabinet has a spring added to steering on a mechanical side or such if the real cabinet has a feeling like that

values only start changing as soon as vehicle moves

Do you mean when using the FFB files you just posted (incredible work by the way, I'm astonished that you created a potential workaround / test in such a short time period, that's remarkably impressive!)

Using the default M2 FFB if you start Sega Rally and don't move the car off the line, but just move/rotate the steering wheel, you will see/feel the wheel rumble/judder/jolt etc ... but as soon as you move forward ALL those effects are cut.

If your files actually correct / reverse that I'm ... well I think I'm going to be speechless! I'm thinking of sneaking out of bed like a ninja (it's 2am / can't wake the wife as she's up at 6am) and trying this out as you have seriously intrigued me! XD

« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 08:53:16 pm by GameOverYeah »

Boomslang

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2018, 09:07:21 pm »
oh yea i did notice m2 emu ffb was doing some wierd judder crap before race started lol


it does use a value when in car/track selection screen but that's never used once inrace so I haven't added it and maybe elsemi added it as a rumble?

There was 2 random values I saw which I didn't add too, they were pretty randomly used

If there is a sine (rumble) effect then I can add

GameOverYeah

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2018, 09:16:02 pm »
Ok I tried the files and it's the same issue...

Basically in the menus etc my wheel rumbles and shakes etc... when the 3...2...1 counter takes place my wheel rumbles and Judders etc.... when my car is stationary and I rotate my wheel, my wheel Judders, rumbles etc...

But the instant I start moving forward... ALL those FFB effects are 100% GONE! Removed! Nada!
« Last Edit: August 18, 2018, 09:23:25 pm by GameOverYeah »

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2018, 09:23:39 pm »
uh

You DID disable the FFB in Emulator.ini?

Cos there literally is NOTHING that can cause your wheel to be doing any rumbles and judders etc when car is stationary. The FFB Address outputs 0 and which my plugin does not even read

GameOverYeah

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2018, 09:36:18 pm »
Yea FFB in the emulator ini was / is disabled (I took a video of this behaviour too) the wheel is juddering, vibrating, etc when stationary as if I'm going flat out on dirt... then as soon as I move forward all the FFB stops entirely.... only if I hit a wall do I get FFB. The rumble, judder etc is all removed.


Boomslang

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2018, 09:41:44 pm »
hm that doesn't really make sense and isn't how my wheel performs at all. What wheel are you using?

I get wierd judders happening on the original M2 Emu before race and stops once moving but none at all with my plugin

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2018, 09:45:55 pm »
I have 3 wheels connected to my rig at the moment thr OSW / CSL Elite / CSWv2.5 they all behave the same. I took a video of the CSL Elite going mental while stationary on the start line and as soon a I pressed on the accelerator the effects all stopped. Once I stopped again, the effects all came back.

It's as if the FFB is inverted... on when it should be off and off when it should be on.

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2018, 09:50:14 pm »
yea that's wierd and opposite to me here

I would suggest trying to fresh m2 emulator install etc incase something is wrong on the setup. You should not have anything happening at all while car is stationary

As soon as i press accl pedal then forces kick in etc

Also If trying my plugin, lower the min FFB down to 0 instead of 20 to make sure that's not causing any issue since those wheels are alot stronger then my logitech wheel here

Moksi

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2018, 04:34:23 am »
wow gonna test this out for sure ! And going to see what the feedback is like with g27

thanks

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2018, 06:25:13 am »
yea that's wierd and opposite to me here

I would suggest trying to fresh m2 emulator install etc incase something is wrong on the setup. You should not have anything happening at all while car is stationary

As soon as i press accl pedal then forces kick in etc

Also If trying my plugin, lower the min FFB down to 0 instead of 20 to make sure that's not causing any issue since those wheels are alot stronger then my logitech wheel here

Nope!

This has been tested on 3 wheels / sim rigs usijg OSW / CSW / CSL and this mor img I just downloaded and extracted M2 1.1a added 1 rom changed one line in the ini to enable FFB and launched the game EXACTLY the same results on 3 complexity different Simrigs! All using different OS (Win 7/Win10) different wheels bases and drivers and software.

All the exact same results.

It's simple to test, try it yourself.
Get a brand new clean install of M2 In a folder, add rims folder, add SR rom.
Enable FFB in ini.
Don't change any settings at all.
Launch rom
Insert coins and Select car
As the camera is zooming into the back of the car etc begin turning your steering wheel. You will FEEL and visibly see shaking / rumbling etc...

DO NOT ACCELERATE
Sit stationary and continue to turn your wheel...
You will again both see and FEEL the FFB rumble and have tension etc when you rotate the wheel.

Keep turning the wheel left and right and at the same time as you are turning the wheel left and right begin accelerating and you will absolutely see/feel/hear (including looking at any telemetry apps) that the as soon as you move the vehicle forward the in a straight line ALL. Rumble effects etc that were present when stationary vanish the faster you go.

It's absolutely, categorically, inverted without exception! It's  not subjective or opinion etc... it's an objective fact that can be repeated on 3 systems all running different wheels including a 2000 direct drive wheel!

Perhaps you are used to how it feels and aren't noticing the issue.

I did 3 brand new clean installs using the default m2 FFB (enabling it in the ini) same results.
I deleted those folders, created a new folder, extracted and created 3 new further installs this time using your plugin and same results. In fact your plugin made my wheels go mental at the start, violently shaking etc.

On 3 wheels, on 3 systems, with 3 different (clean/brand new/untouched setups) it still functions as I describe.


I think there may Ben some communication issues here. Don't get me wrong, your FFB files work. I get FFB from your files and from the M2 game files.

Howeve,r I'm talking about 1 specific part of the FFB... the rumble / judder / effect when driving on a straight on in a power Slide!

The best way to test this is the desert track and do exactly as I described above, feel the wheel before you set off, feel it judder and rumble in your hands as you turn it while the car is stationary...

Now move the car directly forward slowly and you will categorically see that the rumble effect is cancelled as soon as the car moves forward. It's removed. Now stop the car and feel / turn the wheel again, the rumble effect etc is back. That particular FFB channel is working in reverse (based on an actual cabinet I tested on Saturday in Leeds) it should be smooth and no ffb when stationary and the rumble etc should kick in as soon as you move forward.

So while your ffb files work, they just increase the existing Ffb "volume" of the already existing Ffb which feels identicle to m2 ffb just more powerful.

I'm talking about a specific Ffb effect that is working incorrectly from the game to the emulator as it's cutting it out when you move the vehicle forward.

The wheel/car in saga rally (when stationary) should have NO Rumble effects etc when you turn the wheel!
The wheel/car in saga rally (when stationary) should have no Ffb effects on the wheel whatsoever (except maybe spring tension).

The wheel/car in sega rally (when in motion) SHOULD have a CONSTANT FFB rumble effect (like you are driving on cobbles) AS SOON as you move the vehicle forward. (Verified at a cabinet in Leeds)

In M2 as soon as you move the car forward off the line there is NO Large FFB rumble effect as they are categorically disabled as soon as you hit the gas.

You can use wheelschecker etc to see that the wheel is recieving FFB Rumble effect when stationary from the game. The telemetry proves that. Then if you move the car forward, the telemetry shows the ffb signal it was receiving is now gone!



« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 07:08:14 am by GameOverYeah »

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2018, 07:04:10 am »
Yeah I'm not an idiot man. FFB is kinda been my life for the past few months now coding it up on plenty of games

IT DOES NOT HAPPEN TO ME

I've literally got the FFB memory address and reading it and it does not perform the way you keep saying it does. My wheel does not perform like that. I have ZERO ffb effects when stationary and move wheel, the wheel is literally as loose as it can be. There is no tension, there is no rumble

I have already confirmed to you that the value stays at 0 the entire time the car is stationary, you can keep arguing with me if you want. But i know what I'm talking about here






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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2018, 07:24:02 am »
Yeah I'm not an idiot man. FFB is kinda been my life for the past few months now coding it up on plenty of games

IT DOES NOT HAPPEN TO ME

I've literally got the FFB memory address and reading it and it does not perform the way you keep saying it does. My wheel does not perform like that. I have ZERO ffb effects when stationary and move wheel, the wheel is literally as loose as it can be. There is no tension, there is no rumble

I have already confirmed to you that the value stays at 0 the entire time the car is stationary, you can keep arguing with me if you want. But i know what I'm talking about here

I'm not arguing with you, nor did I say you didn't know what you are talking about!

What I can categorically PROVE with TELEMETRY sitting in between the wheel and the emulator is that the GAME / EMU is delivering a sine to the base when in the state described!

You can disagree, I respect that. But I can't argue with the objective reality that is present to me via 3 WBs on 3 Simrigs using telemetry that categorically indicates that the wheels are recieving an input.

For what it's worth I work with DD wheel manufacturers!
I know what I am talking about when it comes to DD wheels , FFB, drivers and WBFW.

Your wheel may not exhibit the issue, but that doesn't mean it's not true! Your wheel may not be as sensitive as a DD motor it may be a cheap plastic g27 etc. I have no idea. My point is, if you take the time to check with telemetry, you will be less inclined to get defensive and hostile toward me, and you will see it is indeed a fact.

I can even post a short video taking at 3am this morning clearly demonstrating that!

In fact I just enabled logging in your FFB and the log clearly displays that the wheel is moving in your very own log! There are thousands of got value moving wheel entities as the wheels is moving and being moved by the in game FFB as soon as the game mode selection screen is displayed.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 07:48:18 am by GameOverYeah »

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2018, 08:21:15 am »
Ok...

So here is a video of a brand new, unzipped, clean install (no settings changed), completly default M2 with only 1 rom... SRC!

I added your files into the folder, and included device ID and etc as you instructed.
Here is exactly what happens with your files (which is actually more prominent with your files vs M2 defaults)

http://sendvid.com/w7xa9ph6

And here is a snippet of the millions of entries contained within the log file generated by your FFB which clearly indicates the wheel was indeed moving and/or being moved.

I also have telemetry demonstrating that the wheel was indeed moving due to inputs originating from the game/emu/FFB.
I don't know what more you want to be honest, I'm not having a go at you or saying you don't know what you are talking about, I never said any of those things, so i don't know why you would suggest that i did?

To do so undermines the discussion at hand!
additionally by stating that just because you don't see the issue with your hardware, means that the issues doesn't exist, is you invoking logical fallacy, and this renders further discussion/investigation redundant as you are closing your mind to the possibility that your hardware may be the limiting factor in you experiencing this issue.

I'm trying to help the community by demonstrating that something has been missed. and i know exactly what it is and can clearly demonstrate that with facts, video evidence, telemetry, log files and of course objective reality.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 08:34:25 am by GameOverYeah »

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2018, 10:17:42 am »
Is the FFB in Daytona in M2 FFB also inverted ?

Always good if someone test it on the real machine

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Re: Saga Rally M2 FFB (bug identified)
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2018, 03:37:37 pm »
Good luck with your issue but I won't be involved anymore.

  
 

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