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Author Topic: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD  (Read 3580 times)

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schmerzkaufen

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2018, 03:24:41 am »
Interlaced? is it really? both windows and my monitor report 1920x1080@60, no 'i' seen anywhere and the picture's perfectly sharp and stable...

edit: I've double-checked arcade osd and the mode in cyan is indeed listed as interlaced, which I didn't notice at first. I don't know what is happening.
1920x1080@60p is not listed in arcade osd, it's either 59p or 60i, something's wrong.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 03:33:10 am by schmerzkaufen »

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2018, 03:32:32 am »
The modeline taken from Arcade OSD is certainly interlaced. What I can't say is if it's the real timing in use or Arcade OSD is incorrectly grabbing it from somewhere else.

The logs you posted when using regular Catalyst showed a progressive 1080p mode.

Just in case this is a leftover of your past experiments with GM, in VMMaker, video card type, use the option "Delete all modes from driver".
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2018, 03:33:21 am »
edit: I've double-checked arcade osd and the mode in cyan is indeed listed as interlaced, which I didn't notice at first. I don't know what is happening.

Is there a progressive, 60 Hz, counterpart?

Alright, use the 59p version.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 03:35:12 am by Calamity »
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2018, 03:45:23 am »
I've deleted all modes in vmmaker and went back to arcade osd but the list didn't change, no 1920x1080@60p...

The 1920x1080@59p mode is listed as native and greyed out, arcade osd won't let me copy to clipboard.

I don't know what is happening, but I know a lot of HD monitors these days have a 59.94Hz mode that is quite often listed as '59p' and very often picked in priority by many machines as the default instead of the optimal 'PC' 60p one, which you then have to force through your GPU or windows.
I remember this R7 for instance by default ran @59 until I created a 1920x1080p mode in the AMD panel.

(edit: for reference my DC in VGA or 360 in HDMI both run @60 on this monitor, but if I connect a laptop or whatever PC with nVidia/AMD/Intel, then the '59p' mode is always the first one to be automatically selected. Had three monitors similar to this one recently, same story)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 03:49:05 am by schmerzkaufen »

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2018, 03:53:39 am »
I remember this R7 for instance by default ran @59 until I created a 1920x1080p mode in the AMD panel.

Ok, this makes sense.

In VMMaker's console, type:

mode add "1920x1080_60 67.500000KHz 60.000000Hz" 148.500000 1920 2008 2052 2200 1080 1084 1089 1125 -hsync -vsync

Then:

modelist install

This will override that interlaced mode with a progressive one (this one is taken from your old log, probably it's the one you created with the AMD panel)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 05:44:35 am by Calamity »
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #45 on: August 09, 2018, 04:10:19 am »
Just did but the mode is still not showing in arcade osd.

BTW as mentioned both Windows and my monitor believe they're at 1920x1080@60p, but when I move a window around the desktop for instance, the movement is randomly choppy.

Dunno which thing is telling the truth or is mistaken.

edit; could crt_emudriver lack something for those common consumer Full-HD monitors? the first mode listed as 60p down the list in arcade osd is 1680x1050, then 1600x900, 1440x900...the top of the list is packed with interlaced modes, this isn't normal.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 04:16:44 am by schmerzkaufen »

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #46 on: August 09, 2018, 04:21:17 am »
CRT Emudriver is plain Catalyst with a couple of checks removed. It can't affect that. As you said, it's Windows assuming 59.94 is 59. This probably comes from your monitor's EDID, that's why it happens also when you connect it to other computers.

Is the mode showing as interlaced in Arcade OSD even after restart?

Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #47 on: August 09, 2018, 04:32:15 am »
Nothing's changed even after restart, the mode is not here in (vmmaker did say mode installed, there was no error warning in the console)

I don't know why but I could easily create and set modes with the AMD control panel but here I can't, so something must be missing somewhere.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 04:34:33 am by schmerzkaufen »

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #48 on: August 09, 2018, 04:35:34 am »
Are you pointing to the right output in VMMaker?

What happens if you do the same but using this mode:

"1920x1080_58 65.250000KHz 58.000000Hz" 143.550000 1920 2008 2052 2200 1080 1084 1089 1125   +hsync +vsync
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2018, 04:43:03 am »
yes the output is ok (monitor #1 R7)

58hz -> mode is rejected by driver (still says installed afterwards though, how strange)

Calamity

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2018, 04:51:26 am »
Ok, that's bad. Here the driver accepts the modes without issues. Maybe the fact that this monitor is connected through DVI-D instead of HDMI could be making a difference.

Are you able to change any timing at all through Arcade OSD?

It could also be due to your monitor's EDID being more restrictive.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 05:00:49 am by Calamity »
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #51 on: August 09, 2018, 05:03:13 am »
I'm connected using a DVI>HDMI cable because that's what I had under the arm, but I can use a normal HDMI one too if you want.
(Full-HD monitors never have DVI inputs btw)
I've asked the question of connectivity earlier because I thought it might count.


Using arcade osd I was indeed able to edit and save, only set the cyan mode to progressive and it worked (but i didn't touch the timing values)

EDIT: for the EDID: assume all Full-HD monitors and TVs are practically the same, flat panel displays definitely don't behave the same depending on their category, remember 1200p ones are a very small niche and definitely differ in terms of internals and standards.
BTW I think 4K monitors and TVs are of the same 'breed' as the Full-HD, afaik, they're consumer products expected to be used with consoles, broadcast, BR players etc

EDIT: after another restart for changing to HDMI>HDMI, went back to arcade osd and the cyan mode I had previously changed to progressive, went back to interlaced.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 05:26:24 am by schmerzkaufen »

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2018, 05:28:39 am »
I'm using dual link DVI here because at the time this monitor was made it was the only connection to admit the required bandwidth. It shouldn't matter, I'm just trying to figure out the issue.

The fact that the AMD panel was able to insert the modes makes me wonder if the issue could be in VMMaker itself. I believe VMMaker uses the same mechanism as AMD panel to create new modes (I'm just using the AMD api). The difference could be AMD is using the vesa gtf/cvt standard while I'm trying to push the modes as custom.

What if you try this one:

mode add "1920x1080_59 66.375000KHz 59.000000Hz" 146.025000 1920 2008 2052 2200 1080 1084 1089 1125   +hsync +vsync

modelist install

Here, for instance, my 1920x1080@59p mode is marked as native in Arcade OSD. After running the above, I get a custom editable 59 Hz mode in Arcade OSD. Pay a lot of attention to the quotation marks.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #53 on: August 09, 2018, 05:44:46 am »
Pay a lot of attention to the quotation marks.
That must have been the issue. Previously I had a syntax error warning, so I assumed it was because of the quotation marks, after removing them the line would be written in the list though, without error warning.
Maybe there should be more syntax error messages. ^^

OK so the modes are now listed and selectable in arcade osd. I've applied the first 1920x1080@60 you've picked from my logs as well, it's there in arcade OSD but still labelled as 'custom'. I've set it as desktop.
Should I now resume from 'copy to clipboard' using that one ?

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #54 on: August 09, 2018, 05:46:57 am »
Yeah, my error, I edited my previous posts, sorry.

Quote
Should I now resume from 'copy to clipboard' using that one ?

Yes, start from there now.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2018, 05:59:04 am »
Here it is
Code: [Select]
modeline "1920x1080_60 67.50KHz 60.00Hz" 148.50 1920 2008 2052 2200 1080 1084 1089 1125 -hsync -vsync
crt_range 67490.00-67510.00, 50.00-60.00, 0.593, 0.296, 0.997, 0.059, 0.074, 0.533, 0, 0, 1080, 1305, 2160, 2610

So I assume
crt_range0 56250-84375, 50.00-75.00, 0.593, 0.296, 0.997, 0.059, 0.074, 0.533, 0, 0, 1080, 1080, 0, 0

Calamity

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2018, 06:22:26 am »
It looks correct.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2018, 06:41:19 am »
OK testing right now, in vmmaker I've added the 55Hz and 58Hz modes I've grabbed in the logs from my original attempt with the regular AMD drivers

For instance both R-Type and Raiden II run fine and smooth at the correct speed.
ESPrade too, locking to 58Hz and this time without distorted sound.
(I've reduced sync_refresh_tolerance to 1 btw because some games didn't seem to grab the nearest mode)

One issue that remained the same after switching to crt_emudriver here, is that Darius Gaiden still runs at half its normal speed, no idea why. I'll drop a log later.

Now I'm trying to figure what's the best method to add more modes manually? because previously the AMD custom utility kinda adjusted all the timings automatically after I set a random **Hz value.
I remember I had tried at least three more modes that worked but I didn't save those unfortunately (54Hz, 56Hz, 57Hz)
Wait I think I've missed a step, I'll come back...
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 06:53:33 am by schmerzkaufen »

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #58 on: August 09, 2018, 06:56:27 am »
You're not supposed to create a mode per refresh. Just a dummy 59 Hz mode. That's the point of this method.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #59 on: August 09, 2018, 07:08:24 am »
I was so puzzled and exhausted that I've skipped the vmmaker part where you set the monitor header etc. maybe that's the reason why it's not working 'by itself'.

So now I suppose I need to edit the default 'generic 15' one ?

Should I set the default aspect to 16:9 ?

And the dummy mode will start with 2560x1080, right ?

Calamity

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #60 on: August 09, 2018, 07:09:27 am »
I was so puzzled and exhausted that I've skipped the vmmaker part where you set the monitor header etc. maybe that's the reason why it's not working 'by itself'.

So now I suppose I need to edit the default 'generic 15' one ?

Should I set the default aspect to 16:9 ?

And the dummy mode will start with 2560x1080, right ?


No, no, no  :cry:
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #61 on: August 09, 2018, 07:12:35 am »
Just add the new monitor definition at the top of monitor.ini

Leave aspect 4:3 as explained in my guide.

2560x1600 is my monitor's resolution. Yours is 1920x1080. I thought this was clear.

Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Calamity

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2018, 07:15:05 am »
Please relax and give a read through the guide carefully first. Don't jump through the steps without knowing the purpose of it.

You don't have to create dozens of modes.

You only have to create a dummy mode. This must be forced in mame.ini later by using the -resolution option (last step).

Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #63 on: August 09, 2018, 07:28:12 am »
This is all a ton of firsts for me and a several hours battle, I hope you realize that for the layman this is really difficult and unusual ?
A ton of things I'm trying to follow in your guide don't make any sense to me yet I'm trying.

Sorry but that part is by far the most confusing one in your guide, it's referring to stuff I don't see. Maybe you should write it not with your own monitor as an example but with in mind what most people will see the first time they arrive.

When I get into vmmaker here what I see as monitor type is 'generic 15', nothing like mine is present in the droplist, then when I click on edit and the ini pops up, the first line is labelled as PAL TV 50Hz, is this where I am supposed to write the dummy mode line ?

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #64 on: August 09, 2018, 07:36:50 am »
monitor.ini is a text file. You're supposed to just click on the very top of it, press enter a few times so you can type or paste the new monitor definition. You don't have to replace the existing definitions.

You can just ignore this part because you've already added the mode by the other method we've been posting about this morning.

You already have your crt_range definition, edit mame.ini with it, add the "monitor custom" and "resolution 1920x1080@59" part and you're done. Post a log as soon as you have it running so I can check.

Bear in mind all the extra steps were required because by default your screen was reporting an interlaced mode. I know what it feels to always stumble with the "special" case.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 07:38:33 am by Calamity »
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2018, 08:10:17 am »
You're supposed to just click on the very top of it, press enter a few times so you can type or paste the new monitor definition. You don't have to replace the existing definitions.
Well you should really state so in the guide, how was I supposed to know that I needed to create a fresh new entry in the ini that pops up? also suddenly the term 'definitions' is used like it's obvious to anyone that in this particular file this is what these entries are called...
It's my first time today using vmmaker and seeing all that, trust me as someone who has near-zero knowledge of all this stuff: that part of your guide is  :dizzy:.

You already have your crt_range definition, edit mame.ini with it, add the "monitor custom"
Ok I've done that a while ago.

You and "resolution 1920x1080@59" part and you're done.
Wait that part is still to do in vmmaker, right ? or is this something I need to write in the mame.ini under the # OSD PER-WINDOW VIDEO OPTIONS category?
(currently there I have: resolution                1920x1080@0)

Post a log as soon as you have it running so I can check.
Bear in mind all the extra steps were required because by default your screen was reporting an interlaced mode. I know what it feels to always stumble with the "special" case.
Sorry at this point I don't know which of all I did was extra or normal lol  ;D

Don't hate me for what I'll say here; but I envy the nVidia guys who didn't have to go through all this.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 08:13:30 am by schmerzkaufen »

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2018, 08:21:53 am »
Wait that part is still to do in vmmaker, right ? or is this something I need to write in the mame.ini under the # OSD PER-WINDOW VIDEO OPTIONS category?
(currently there I have: resolution                1920x1080@0)

Frankly man, if after reading my guide you still have that in mame.ini, I throw the towel right now, going to the beach  8)

Quote
Don't hate me for what I'll say here; but I envy the nVidia guys who didn't have to go through all this.

I don't hate you, I hate myself for having spent a few hours writing that guide.  :D

The point is, when you write a guide you need to keep a balance between not being too technical and not insulting the average man intelligence (the later imo being having to provide details about hot to insert text in a text file).

Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #67 on: August 09, 2018, 08:46:58 am »
Frankly man, if after reading my guide you still have that in mame.ini, I throw the towel
Once you say write resolution 1920x1080@0 to avoid going off the vertical resolution, once it's about adding mode 1920x1080@59 in vmmaker, next you mention resolution 1920x1080@59.
Am I supposed to know they're directly related? Or what?

I don't hate you, I hate myself for having spent a few hours writing that guide.  :D

The point is, when you write a guide you need to keep a balance between not being too technical and not insulting the average man intelligence (the later imo being having to provide details about hot to insert text in a text file).

I surely won't thank you for the insult. You're like all mamedevs or the average developer/computer engineer in the end, looking down on people who don't share the knowledge in the same fields as yours and overlooking the fact that you lack the ability to put yourself in the layman user's shoes and explain properly.
Maybe it's natural for you but it's not for like 99% of the population, especially when it's their first time being introduced to so many new things.

Shall I remind you that I've spend a considerable about of time on this as well, trying my best because this is what YOU stated should be done if done right ?



Anyway for some reason after restarting my PC it's back to its previous state with interlaced default like all is gone and I don't know why.

I'm tired of this, I feel like GM could be perfect for LCDs as I've witnessed with my own eyes that it actually works, but if that means going through such hair-pulling adventure for at almost the end of the road being treated like an idiot, then to hell with it.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 08:49:46 am by schmerzkaufen »

brad808

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #68 on: August 09, 2018, 09:25:15 am »
... Time for a CRT ;-).

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #69 on: August 09, 2018, 09:48:14 am »
(Full-HD monitors never have DVI inputs btw)

I've installed hundreds, used dozens, and bought a few that do.
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Calamity

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #70 on: August 09, 2018, 10:48:22 am »
Shall I remind you that I've spend a considerable about of time on this as well, trying my best because this is what YOU stated should be done if done right ?

I keep stating it is the right way to do it. And I'm sorry that it didn't work for you right away.

Quote
looking down on people who don't share the knowledge in the same fields as yours and overlooking the fact that you lack the ability to put yourself in the layman user's shoes and explain properly

See it the other way. Because I consider the folks here smart (otherwise you wouldn't be here but in instagram or whatever) my way to show you respect is to treat you as an equal and provide you with all the information I'd like to have received when I started with this. Treating people like dummies is insulting, this is the way I see things.
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Amplifuzz

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #71 on: August 09, 2018, 01:00:01 pm »
If you use -monitor lcd, then it will NOT switch to a different video mode, it will use whatever your desktop is configured with, period. This is valid for 99% of people using lcds (which, I need to remind, is not the target audience of GM anyway).

GM may of course use whatever video mode you add to your system, say 55 Hz, whatever, AS LONG AS you treat your monitor as a CRT and use a monitor preset or custom crt_range that allows that mode.

Basically in GM's context a "crt" is a monitor that can use different video modes. An "lcd" is a monitor that uses a fixed video mode. Again, this makes sense for 99% of cases, even if there're exceptions, like LCDs that support variable refresh rates, etc.

Freaking hell, it works. This was never mentioned anywhere AFAIK, in fact I asked you some time ago how to do it with Powerstrip which is obviously deprecated by now. Still can't compare to a good CRT, but very handy in a pinch.

EDIT: Guess I spoke too soon, now the nonstandard refresh games (R-type, Mortal Kombat etc) work fine at their custom refresh but all the 60hz games default to the lowest refresh I have set (50 hz in my case, 54hz if I delete the 50hz one and so on). What could it be?

EDIT 2: Changing crt_range0 to 50000 from 65000 seems to have fixed it.

Anyways, here's a barebones guide on how to do it with an Nvidia card:

- setup your custom refresh resolutions with the Nvidia control panel. Nvidia control panel > Change resolution > Customize > Create custom resolution. Keep your native LCD resolution, 32bpp, just tweak the refresh in 1hz increments.

- edit mame.ini, here are my edits from a newly created one

monitor custom
lock_system_modes 0
lock_unsupported_modes 0
crt_range0 "50000-85000, 50.00-62.00, 0.704, 1.035, 1.739, 0.040, 0.080, 0.483, 0, 0, 1200, 1200, 0, 0"

replace 50.00-62.00 with the refresh range your monitor can support (until it goes 'out of range' when you're testing the custom resolutions in step 1) and 1200 with the native vertical resolution.

Optional:

- Configure Portaudio
- De-suck HLSL with these settings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9ERMO4I55I

Couple of questions:

- I have 50, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61,62 hz setup now. Anything else needed? Anything that can be removed?
- What are the best vsync settings for d3d with this setup?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 03:52:19 pm by Amplifuzz »

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #72 on: August 09, 2018, 01:52:28 pm »
@Calamity: I don't see how after you have said that I'm basically not intelligent enough to understand your guide, that I would be the one being disrespectful.
You are seeing the world upside down if you think a complete beginner who doesn't understand something you have complete mastery of, is lacking you respect.
If you don't understand how complex this is for someone who doesn't have a fraction of your knowledge, or isn't nearly on the level of the long-initiated disciples, then you indeed deserve to be put in the same category as the mamedev who are infamous for dispending that kind of treatment towards users.
Again; try to understand the people who are outside of your world yet admire your work and are trying to catch up/understand. If you can't then set an automatic message somewhere telling newbies it's pointless to ask questions or help until they already have reached a certain level of knowledge and experience of all this.

Again, even putting aside the initial issue with my capricious gpu, after struggling with that interlaced desktop story I already had too much in mind and so eager to get that correct modeline+range, when it finally worked I've pasted it in my ini, relieved!!! then I was lost from the vmmaker part which I incorrectly thought came afet because of fatigue, and yes from there your guide isn't clear period.
Again especially as you're showing preset examples and forget to mention details inexperienced person discovering this would just guess 'just like that'. It's confusing.
Remember the quotation marks incident? If you hadn't mentioned it, how would I have guessed ? well that part of the guide is the same kind of situation, a few things un/mismentioned and for a beginner it's a dead-end.

Then after that I don't know why but my modes were reset and I thought 'to hell', this is too much. I only wanted a handful of modes working with GM, in the fashion the nVidia guys did, but for a reason that still escapes me you've refused to help me like you did for them, and dragged me into this way overcomplicated method.

And I know now that it was overcomplicated because I have since uninstalled everything, went back to the regular AMD drivers, then found an alternative way of doing it that works fantastically, with the regular AMD drivers yes, barely any more work than the nVidia owner's, only a few minutes, incredible success and no longer any anomalies.
No need to install crt_emudriver nor bother with vmmaker and try to learn and understand occult incantations, nor guess the relationships between all these parts, or fight through completely unexpected odd issues.

But I suppose that if I explained here how I did it, you would consider that 'disrespectful', so I'd better keep it to myself.

My advice take it or burn it; if it's not absolutely needed (and it doesn't seem that it is) then leave the LCD users out of the emudriver/vmmaker/modes-editing mumbo jumbo, it's not for them or if you prefer, weighing the possibilities, not worth this much trouble for their case. If they can have a handful of modes working through their GPU control panel and a few ini edits (which works!), that's enough.
Users who expect the full real GM+emudriver experience know it's the CRT way period, and they'll brace for the effort, because it's worth it.
Users who'd expect uncompromised emulation output on a LCD will buy a freesync/gsync setup.
'Normal LCD' users are neither, they just want the little extra mile an expanded configuration (beyond setting 'monitor lcd' in mame.ini) can achieve.

I'm sorry that I got pissed off and dropped the polite attitude but you started it. I'll be rudundant here but: don't blame someone and don't make fun of him for having a hard time understanding when it's you dragging him into something he obviously had few chances of getting right the first time and he was inevitably going to hit many walls.
FYI, as far as I've experienced talking emulation around, I believe most users in my case who would also love to profit from GM's abilities wouldn't have made it even halfway where I've been. Don't be like most mamdev, know your users, and realize what you're putting in front of them.

Unless of course if you only wish to address experienced knowledgeable ones, in which case then just kick the noobs out and link them to retroarch or bizhawk whatever.

Calamity

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #73 on: August 09, 2018, 02:50:46 pm »
@Calamity: I don't see how after you have said that I'm basically not intelligent enough to understand your guide, that I would be the one being disrespectful.
You are seeing the world upside down if you think a complete beginner who doesn't understand something you have complete mastery of, is lacking you respect.

Definitely I'm having a bad day getting myself understood. I didn't say you're disrespectful.

What I said is that *my* way to show respect to users is to not treat them as idiots. I'm afraid I have a personal crusade against the "don't get too technical" attitude (journalists, etc.).

I don't want users that follow a guide blindly. I expect them to understand what they're doing. If they don't at first, no problem, I'm here to answer questions.

And yes, my guide could be better, it was put together in a rush.

But if I write a sequential guide, which last step is:

Quote
Perfect. The final step is to configure GroovyMAME to use this custom monitor preset. So open mame.ini, and edit these options:

monitor custom
crt_range0 88884-99764, 54.00-60.61, 0.179, 0.119, 0.298, 0.030, 0.061, 0.375, 1, 0, 1600, 1600, 0, 0
resolution 2560x1600@59

Pay attention to the "resolution" option. We're forcing GroovyMAME to pick this dummy mode we've created. GroovyMAME will take this mode and adjust its refresh rate to whatever refresh is required.

... and the user complains I didn't warn the -resolution option had to be edited in mame.ini... how would you rewrite that in a simpler way?

------------------

I suggested this method because I did believe it was simpler.

Now, I'll explain why the NVidia/AMD-regular method is worse. You need to create a mode for each refresh, ok. The problem is arcade systems require hundreds of different refresh rates. You can only add 10 different refresh rates between 50 and 60, each one for an integer Hz value. That sucks.

Want to have 59.18 and 59.61 Hz available? Impossible
57.50 and 57.00 Hz? No way

You may arguee that for a regular user, this doesn't matter. That's subjective.

The thing is, there's a method that avoids that limitation and allows any refresh rate in the range, freely available without having to create individual modes. And because this method exists, I believe it deserves to be known. It's implemented in GM and can be potentially used, but it's not been documented until now.

And I thought you were a good candidate to test it, since you already had an AMD card available, that's all.

In my view of things, driving people through the static mode route is moving backwards in the hobby. Overacting about the supposed difficulty of things puts off new potential users who get intimidated before even trying.


EDIT: Damned, I've even made a change in next GroovyMAME version to make the standard, static mode method work better.


« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 02:56:10 pm by Calamity »
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Paradroid

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #74 on: August 09, 2018, 05:45:22 pm »
@Calamity: I don't see how after you have said that I'm basically not intelligent enough to understand your guide, that I would be the one being disrespectful.
You are seeing the world upside down if you think a complete beginner who doesn't understand something you have complete mastery of, is lacking you respect.
If you don't understand how complex this is for someone who doesn't have a fraction of your knowledge, or isn't nearly on the level of the long-initiated disciples, then you indeed deserve to be put in the same category as the mamedev who are infamous for dispending that kind of treatment towards users.

Some self-reflection and a sense of perspective is in order here, dude.

Clearly, the following salient points are not self-evident to you:

Calamity is unique in the emulation scene because has a rare combination of genius level skills, saintly patience and generosity. Drop the comparisons to cranky ol' mamedev already. We need to keep him enthusiastic about the project, not wear him down with this undue ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---. We probably would have had a v02.00 build by now if he hadn't spent all his free time on your issue. :)
The average mainstream MAME user is not GroovyMAME's target: it's specialised software for those who want a pixel-perfect CRT experience and are willing to put in the time to understand the challenges involved (and there are numerous).
Your usage case (LCD) falls outside the clearly stated purpose for GroovyMAME (CRT!!!). Sure, there are advantages for LCD users to but you're using the software for something outside of its original purpose.
All this ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- take time to understand: it's not Calamity's software or guides that are complex - it's the problem itself (i.e. how to reproduce hundreds of different video modes on an endless number of target displays (CRT and LCD) with potentially unknown capabilities).
It can take years to get your head around all this stuff. There are already so many moving parts (i.e. MAME ini system, parameters, etc.) before you even get to GroovyMAME specifics and the world of video timings.
In 2018, getting into GroovyMAME is WAAAAY easier than 5 years ago. We've never had it better! Back then there were no guides, compatibility was lower (video cards), we didn't have super resolutions, etc. And guess what? People still got great results after putting in the due diligence.

Stake a step back. Accept that this is going to take time. You're not ordering a cheeseburger at McDonald's here...

Now, to address your fundamental misunderstanding relating to your alternative solution that works "fantastically": I just ran a data query (in Excel) on the full MAME XML output and count over 250+ unique refresh rates (for raster displays, non-clones). Your hand full of custom created video modes has no hope of covering all those potentialities. However, by digesting what Calamity has explained to you, you may end up with a solution that covers the majority of those potentials.

I have attached a summary of top 25 refresh rates (resolution is irrelevant to you since you're using a fixed display).

The whole point of GroovyMAME is that, within the limits of your display, you can hit all those native refresh rates (and resolutions, for CRT) by simply feeding GroovyMAME the bandwidth limits of your monitor. One line of text (monitor specifications) versus creating hundreds of modelines by hand.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 05:51:09 pm by Paradroid »
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schmerzkaufen

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #75 on: August 10, 2018, 08:16:00 am »

EDIT: not interested in this huge post -> scroll down to TL;DR

Definitely I'm having a bad day getting myself understood. I didn't say you're disrespectful.

What I said is that *my* way to show respect to users is to not treat them as idiots. I'm afraid I have a personal crusade against the "don't get too technical" attitude (journalists, etc.).
Wait, it never occured to you that you could actually get too technical pushing too much volume at once, too fast, and it's not the guy's fault but yours if he's lost and makes mistakes?
I hope you don't believe the world is made of people with training and experience in computer engineering, because most people can't even edit a text file or use command promp, and that includes tons of gamers, it's not their fault, just the majority of people simply learn other trades, and Microsoft/Apple/Google have done everything in their power for decades to help users NOT to learn about computers and everything related. All these people they use tech but don't live in the same world as the people that make it, not at all.

I don't want users that follow a guide blindly. I expect them to understand what they're doing. If they don't at first, no problem, I'm here to answer questions.

And yes, my guide could be better, it was put together in a rush.
Wrong way of thinking if you realize where people stand, when you address random beginners (the status is important) with no experience, and introduce them to a whole lot of new things and terms, you absolutely have to be as broadly understandable, detailed and specific, otherwise it's obvious that if you skips some parts, you will lose a lot of the readers or audience and will inevitably have to deal with a ton of - what will also inevitably at some point in your eyes come as - stupid questions.
Let those who've already graduated from the beginners classes do some individual research and thinking, not the clueless beginners. They can't guess, and they will ask you about a myriad of things you will come to think they do with ill will/motivation or by stupidity, and you'll be wrong.

... and the user complains I didn't warn the -resolution option had to be edited in mame.ini... how would you rewrite that in a simpler way?
No, as I said before I got lost starting with the vmmaker part which was confusing as hell, and it led me to mix up some things with the final part, which is why I asked for further explanations/confirmations, and it's where you made fun of my understanding.
You still don't seem to really realize how tricky this all is to assimilate and manage for a first timer who's barely at the level of monkey-ing a few ini settings and drop logs, how full of pits and traps this was, the volume was just too big.

Seriously I didn't imagine for second you would have produced a guide in such a short time, and I felt compelled to try it asap to honour your time spent on it, while I would have been happy and ok just trying the static method for a while since I was curious and willing to try it first, then wait until you had time to do a writeup for the full method no matter if in months if not longer.

I suggested this method because I did believe it was simpler.
How on earth? maybe from your perspective, but for the layman it involves several more actions and new non-trivial things to deal with compared to using what one already has (just his pc with gpu, regular drivers and GM).
It literally took me minutes to create about 10 resolutions in the amd panel and update a bunch of my already existing game or source ini's in GM, no change of drivers nor dealing with new softwares and manipulations my newbie-self wouldn't really understand so early.
One of the first things you learn when starting with GM is how to use its #1 feature which is framedelay, and therefore to create and manage individual ini's
At that level (call it 'beginner+' lol) it's already there, the knowledge and the material required to benefit from the static method, after creating about 10 custom resolutions (took me 3 minutes) only needed is to update the game or source .ini's with the resolution you want switchres to lock to, and eventually adjust the tolerance.
It's incredibly simpler and most of the knowledge needed is already in the user's head.
The only information he needs and can't guess at his level is in the first part of your guide; how to extract and modify the crtrange, and a couple of precisions like setting monitor custom and turning off modeline generation of course etc (minding that I'm still talking about the amd case here of course)

Now, I'll explain why the NVidia/AMD-regular method is worse. You need to create a mode for each refresh, ok. The problem is arcade systems require hundreds of different refresh rates. You can only add 10 different refresh rates between 50 and 60, each one for an integer Hz value. That sucks.

Want to have 59.18 and 59.61 Hz available? Impossible
57.50 and 57.00 Hz? No way

You may arguee that for a regular user, this doesn't matter. That's subjective.
...
The thing is, there's a method that avoids that limitation and allows any refresh rate in the range, freely available without having to create individual modes. And because this method exists, I believe it deserves to be known. It's implemented in GM and can be potentially used, but it's not been documented until now.

And I thought you were a good candidate to test it, since you already had an AMD card available, that's all.
Well it seems you assumed I didn't know about that... But since I know how to use GM with a LCD - at least the very basic 'monitor lcd' setting - and the basics of SwitchRes for lag reduction since again those are among the very first things one learns when beginning with GM - then I know what it does in practice (playing) and how it locks to the available fixed refresh.
Adding more fixed refreshes from my PC/system would logically make them available to GM for doing the same with those, which naturally results in small game refresh speed variations, but in practically all cases now; smaller ones (about 1% at worst from my tests from ~54 to 61+ hardwares) massively expanding the number of games playing smooth and at even closer-to-correct speeds than before, without doing the often considerable compromises (more % off-speed or triplebuffer) the base 'monitor lcd' configuration alone allows.

It's simple and considerably expands the power and greatness of GM for anyone with very little effort and changes to make to his PC/system.
No perfect results of course but at least this 'static' method doesn't require the user to change his drivers (which can defnitely be a problem) nor to spend like 20Hrs figuring out what's going on.
For someone who is not chasing after an ideal of accuracy and only needs a simple way to improve his GM experience for a handful of games in an accessible fashion, it's absolutely fantastic, universal.

Then of course there's the real thing you wrote a guide for, but it's not up to you to judge what method people should use, from the beginning you should have simply introduced both methods and simply state what they do and why the 'full' one is better, then let it to the users to choose which one they need/want.
Someone who usually just plays a couple of games if not just one (many users get mame for one single game they love), will be happy to benefit from a degree of improvement, let him weigh and judge how far he's ready to involve himself and his system for the results each method achieves.

I think you should really not assume in advance the motivations, level of knowledge and experience, and expectations in place of users kind of like you had the ability to read their minds, you can't, and naturally you shouldn't attempt to force them to do exclusively what you want, only your way.
You've declined to let me know about the static method - despite my stating I was interested in both - and for whatever reason assumed I would be a good ginea pig in an intense/rushed first time experiment, just because I owned an AMD ?

Listen I'll tell you what I think all devs/engineers need to hear as often as possible: 99% people who are using your work don't think like you, not in the least, they can't and won't (only a handful might catch up in time) and that's normal.
That doesn't mean they're wrong nor idiots, when you create something you do it for either yourself only, or a restricted number of same-world initiates, or both plus the broad public audience.
MAME is the latter, but GM even expands the possibilities thanks to what you've brought in it, and it has several levels of use and therefore levels of accessibility, each with a corresponding level of skills and output.
If you want to force all users to go straight to the lets say 'intermediary' levels, you're cutting off and chasing away all the beginner's audience that obviously can't, will give up and even curse GM for making them powerless. Yet that beginner's base, as you say 'uneducated', makes nearly ALL of the users pool.

Seriously I'm baffled that this ability to use more refreshes on even non-VRR LCDs has been there for so many years and everyone unaware of it, it's yet another KILLER power feature of GM that shows how superior it is, afaik no other emulator does this, even the static method which is accessible to almost anyone is crushing all other variants of the emulator.
It allows people who play retro games to break free from the fixed 60Hz prison, even the static method as limited as it is a HUGE leap forward for any user.
Almost-to-actual-VRR without a full freesync/gsync setup? that friggin' MAGIC to a MAME user !
I don't know how long you've known about it, but if you have for a long time yet weren't aware how much users value that and how much popularity exposing it - and I mean both methods - and let people choose which they're going to go for, would have earned GM, then you're living in a dimension paralled to the user's.

I'm very much aware you're - as far as I'm concerned - the greatest contributor to MAME when it comes to the video performance and flexibility, and more! I've been following GM for years so of course I know, and I admire what you've done, but despite that you share with most devs/engineers (mamedev or not) a bit of their unawareness of the fact that it's you as a developer who should adapt to their condition/level if you expect to be understood and not clash with them, not the other way around, of course since almost all of them share no knowledge similar to yours.
If you can't measure how big the gap is and that it's you making a mistake when you get too technical too fast, again doing so you'll alienate too many users and your achievements will remain stuck in a niche where only a handful of people with enough level will ever use it and talk with you, basically remaining in a small bubble world, which is a shame considering the place GM deserves.

You can repeat "it's not GMs original intended use" if you want and limit your support if you are maybe unpleased with the perspective of seeing more people - mostly noobs - flocking around GM after they realize the FACT that it's also the greatest for LCDs but for some not in the manner you personally wish for.
But if you do wish for that yet another incredible side of GM to come out in the light and be known, then by all means listen to people like me, if you need a guinea pig for something it should be for writing those guides in a manner that works for even the layman starting from scratch.
This way people learn, it's the best way, show them everything without skipping portions and in the best understandable formulation (sometimes you suddenly use terms I have no idea about, latest: 'header', I don't know what that is). You can use me; ask me anytime if I understand and if I can do it, and listen every time I tell you I don't get it/can't - and don't misinterpret or make fun of my ignorance when it shows - that is if you plan to expand/refine your guide(s), of course.
In short if you don't know what people don't understand, use them to learn about their ignorance. I don't know if you've ever taught people, but trust me: half the job you learn it from your pupils.


TL;DR  ;D

To conclude;
- I've found the way to the static method on AMD's by deducing bits from here and trial-and-error. I haven't posted it yet, do you want me to tell it here and see about maybe arranging a writeup or did you already know but really don't want people to learn about it ?
- I'll gladly do the crt_emudriver method from scratch again this time being aware I'm a guinea pig, but only if you accept to listen when I tell you there's something I don't get/can't do and should be reformulated/redone in your guide, only if you keep in mind the knowledge/skill gap at all times. If you won't consider this then let's forget about that.
- Yes again I believe the Groovy for LCDs guide should be a multi-chapters one, starting with the basic 'monitor lcd' level (done), then static for nVidia (done) followed by AMD, then the full/VRR level one for crt_emudriver compatible AMD owners (done but definitely in need of some refinement IMO)
- On that topic; you said there was no problem coming from crt_emudrivers but since updating to the most recent AMD regular drivers I've witnessed something different and that could be important, are you interested in knowing what it is ?

--

@Paradroid; I won't answer your post because it's a school case of yet another person who assumes a ton of things really wrong about someone out of nothing but misuderstanding and prejudice.

--

Listen guys I'm not here to start a war against GM, it's exactly the opposite, I think it's so great, even greater now with what I've witnessed these few days, it's insane how much more powerful it is compared to other options, yet IMHO impaired by a too narrow perception of its worth and its potential audience, and that's SO frustrating.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 08:23:23 am by schmerzkaufen »

B2K24

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #76 on: August 10, 2018, 10:27:09 am »
For all the time you've taken to type up a meaningless post with basically no revelant information. If you instead spent that time going over Calamity's guide and carefully reading it very slowly and patiently, you would have probably solved all your issue by now.

If all else fails then get a - Component consumer grade TV + VGA->component transcoder and I promise you it will work

If I can make this work then anyone can
http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=301

It's extremely simple and you don't need to understand very much to get a very good end result.

schmerzkaufen

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #77 on: August 10, 2018, 12:09:39 pm »
Would you mind you own business ? it's a thread about using GM with LCDs, it's what I'm here for, so who's making a meaningless post here ?
And no relevant information ? clearly you didn't read. what a petty provocation.

I've read his guide multiple times thank you and there's stuff I didn't get at some point and still don't, which led to uconsequences yet unsolved for my part.

Now those reactions are annoying, am I going to get more condescending posts from random people who don't help me at all ?
I'll listen only to Calamity, he'll either say something or tell me 'nope no more and scram', that's all.
I don't care about random people playing the guard dogs or good groupies trying to make me pass for some bad guy, which I am not, I am very interested in this topic.

And I'm willing to stay on-topic, thanks.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 12:14:29 pm by schmerzkaufen »

Calamity

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #78 on: August 10, 2018, 01:48:47 pm »
- I've found the way to the static method on AMD's by deducing bits from here and trial-and-error. I haven't posted it yet, do you want me to tell it here and see about maybe arranging a writeup or did you already know but really don't want people to learn about it ?

Man, I've been explaining the static method since last week, the involved options have been explained by me and others. How can you say I don't want people to learn about it?

Anyway, if you'd like to arrange a writeup of course it's great. It's exactly the initiative to experiment and learn from trial and error what I like about users. You've found you're own way. Great! Share it with us.

Expect me to critizice what I find wrong or improvable and expect me to judge how others should do custom video because I've been thinking about this problem for the last decade.

Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

krick

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Re: Clarification on using GroovyMAME on a LCD
« Reply #79 on: August 10, 2018, 03:57:07 pm »
@Calamity

Would it make any sense to have two monitor settings for LCD...

LCD_Fixed
LCD_Multi

Or some other wording that makes more sense for the two use cases?
Hantarex Polo 15KHz
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GroovyMAME 0.197.017h_d3d9ex
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