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Author Topic: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?  (Read 1444 times)

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Jack

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How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« on: January 27, 2018, 09:34:06 pm »
Hello, i don't know anything about CRTs, i'm trying to setup my PAL CRT.. i'm using CRT Emudriver (i just selected PAL tv and installed) and GroovyMAME.. i have no idea how to setup the geometry on the tv to fit all the resolutions correctly.. someone can guide me through and teach me? i can't find anything online, or at least anything that i can understand.. if someone can explain to me (like if i was a child lol) how to do it i would really appreciate it. If you guys need more information just ask me, sorry for my english and thanks.

Scooby

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2018, 04:42:49 am »
This might be what you are looking for...
 
http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=46


buttersoft

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2018, 05:35:59 pm »
And if that doesn't work perfectly... Use ArcadeOSD again. Changing the timing around the horizontal sync pulse and porches for any mode will move the image on the screen left and right and resize it. Play around and see, knowing that you can hit Esc to go back at any time. You then save any changes you want, for other emulators. To make these timings stick for GM you can either redo VMM with updated timings in the monitor.ini, or edit the mame.ini file with the updated horizontal timings (starting with the crt_range0 line, but remembering that any specific vertical.ini, machine.ini like neogeo.ini, or game.ini files will override).

Read the monitor presents sticky as well to figure out where the right variables are.

Jack

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2018, 12:05:46 pm »
This might be what you are looking for...
 
http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=46

Thanks, i've read it and i still don't understand.. there is no step by step tutorial and seems outdated.. i am missing something?

And if that doesn't work perfectly... Use ArcadeOSD again. Changing the timing around the horizontal sync pulse and porches for any mode will move the image on the screen left and right and resize it. Play around and see, knowing that you can hit Esc to go back at any time. You then save any changes you want, for other emulators. To make these timings stick for GM you can either redo VMM with updated timings in the monitor.ini, or edit the mame.ini file with the updated horizontal timings (starting with the crt_range0 line, but remembering that any specific vertical.ini, machine.ini like neogeo.ini, or game.ini files will override).

Read the monitor presents sticky as well to figure out where the right variables are.

I know that i can change horizontal sync pulse and porches to kinda move left or right in ArcadeOSD (i dont know if the changes apply in the games) but how do i move up and down? I've set up the geometry on the tv using 320x240 resolution.. should i set it up with an other resolution?

I've read that some people use super resolutions by i don't know what that is. Sorry but i'm a totally noob.. i seriously need a step by step tutorial or something that explain to me "if you do this, this happen on the tv"

I'm totally lost  :cry:

Scooby

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2018, 09:02:57 am »
Here is a step by step tutorial: 
http://www.arcade-tutorials.de/tutorials/howto-groovymame-crt-emudriver-asio-lowlag

And the port audio update:
http://www.arcade-tutorials.de/tutorials/update-groovymame-mit-portaudio-implementierung

It is written in German however. Maybe google translate makes it understandable for you.
The tutorial makes use of super resolutions.

When I did my setup, I didn't managed to find perfect settings for all resolutions as well. But most fit quite well.




Calamity

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2018, 01:12:43 pm »
Hi Jack,

Thanks, i've read it and i still don't understand.. there is no step by step tutorial and seems outdated.. i am missing something?

You're missing the required knowledge about CRTs. Without that knowledge there's no step by step tutorial that can help. When you know how a CRT works, VMMaker/GroovyMAME options are self-explanatory (almost). And, yes, the documentation is terribly outdated, but that's another story  :D

Now, you'll probably get better results by just using the arcade_15 preset instead of the pal one.

You can export your adjustments from Arcade OSD back to VMMaker, and from there, to GroovyMAME:

Arcade OSD (make your adjustments, copy modeline to clipboard) -> Notepad (paste, get modified crt_range) -> VMMaker (edit monitor presets, replace the desired preset with the one you got from previous steps, mark export settings to GroovyMAME)

It's much simpler that it sounds.

Alternatively, you can copy a raw modeline into a game's ini, but that will only work for a single video mode, while using a crt_range allows applying the same adjustment to all modes.

Vertical centering works much in the same way as horizontal centering. Modify the relative size of vertical porches in order to move the picture up or down. Vertical size, however, is not adjustable by software.





Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Paradroid

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2018, 02:17:41 pm »
Thanks, i've read it and i still don't understand.. there is no step by step tutorial and seems outdated.. i am missing something?

You're missing the required knowledge about CRTs. Without that knowledge there's no step by step tutorial that can help.

These two resources will go a long way:

How a TV Works in Slow Motion
Modeline howto
My MAME/SCART/CRT blog: SCART Hunter

alex2005

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2018, 04:46:48 pm »
i have no clue on arcade osd but most of the classic games will have a standard resolution on mame.
for those that dont (mortal kombat etc)  i normally use the slider control option in mame menu for some small adjustments.
still look and play great.
im sure its not ideal but i personally dont like to play around with monitor resolutions to be in the safe side.



Jack

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2018, 04:49:51 am »
I tried to adjust with ArcadeOSD but i can't adjust the vertical at all.. i really don't know how to do this.. maybe if you guys explain how you did it for your monitor and guide me through the process i would understand a way to do it with my monitor as well.. i'm going crazy please help :(

Recapnation

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2018, 10:14:27 am »
Too bad nobody gave you this link:

http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=987#p987

Nevertheless, you indeed should understand first and foremost how a CRT works regarding geometry. Then you'll realize that an all-in-one solution just isn't possible.

Scooby

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2018, 08:19:33 am »
I had similar problems with vertical settings. I guess all you can do on the software side is to play around with the settings in arcade OSD. What I finally did was adjusting the vertical geometry settings directly on the CRT chassis. It highly depends on what kind of monitor you have. Some can be accessed through a service mode, some have these little variable resistors on the chassis. Best is to find a service manual for your monitor and have a look. Maybe I can help you there if you tell me what kind of monitor you have. But you have to be extra careful when you touch anything inside the monitor while it is powered on. There are voltages up to 17 kV inside. I touched it once in my life, don't want to do it again. ;)

Paradroid

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2018, 06:49:42 pm »
Nevertheless, you indeed should understand first and foremost how a CRT works regarding geometry. Then you'll realize that an all-in-one solution just isn't possible.

Yes, this is the bottom line: you cannot control the vertical frame size using software. So, you can either compromise (e.g. set for 240p and have underscan for 224p and overscan for 256p) or find a way to adjust the vertical size on a per-game basis (i.e. trimpot on monitor chassis or setting in service menu).

The main thing for you to understand that your situation is normal. Nobody has a perfect solution for this fundamental limitation of how a CRT works.

Personally, the best solution I every had was to modify a TV so that the adjustments were external:



All I had to do was adjust one knob to make the image fill the screen.

Without going to that effort, personally, since the the majority of arcade games use 224 visible lines, I would just set my TV or monitor to that and either live with missing lines for other games or adjust when necessary.
My MAME/SCART/CRT blog: SCART Hunter

Jack

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2018, 06:46:04 am »
So, i'm using super resolutions and i've adjusted my tv geometry using the 2560x224 resolution.



Here it works fine.. But of course games that use more than 224 line will be cut off.. So there is any way to stretch those resolutions with some settings in vmmaker? i tried so many times to do it with Arcade OSD but i can only move the image, not stretch it or make it smaller/bigger. My only solution is to use video sliders on mame? Any suggestion to have a good setup? Thanks

Nevertheless, you indeed should understand first and foremost how a CRT works regarding geometry. Then you'll realize that an all-in-one solution just isn't possible.

Yes, this is the bottom line: you cannot control the vertical frame size using software. So, you can either compromise (e.g. set for 240p and have underscan for 224p and overscan for 256p) or find a way to adjust the vertical size on a per-game basis (i.e. trimpot on monitor chassis or setting in service menu).

The main thing for you to understand that your situation is normal. Nobody has a perfect solution for this fundamental limitation of how a CRT works.

Personally, the best solution I every had was to modify a TV so that the adjustments were external:

All I had to do was adjust one knob to make the image fill the screen.

Without going to that effort, personally, since the the majority of arcade games use 224 visible lines, I would just set my TV or monitor to that and either live with missing lines for other games or adjust when necessary.

Thanks, so i guess there is nothing i can do with vmmaker..
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 06:52:17 am by Jack »

Paradroid

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2018, 02:40:47 pm »
Thanks, so i guess there is nothing i can do with vmmaker..

Not "guess"... we're telling you point-blank it's impossible. You need to accept what these experts are trying to tell you. :)

You could use the sliders to stretch but it will look like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.
My MAME/SCART/CRT blog: SCART Hunter

Recapnation

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2018, 02:46:40 pm »
Don't ever use MAME's slider controls to modify the size since you'll be digitally scaling the pic and that's exactly what you don't want.




Personally, the best solution I every had was to modify a TV so that the adjustments were external:




That's too awesome. Brings to my mind my C-1084S days... (that's 30 years now!). Do you think that constant geometry changes (especially if you do them via service menus) may harm a TV set (any part) in the long term?


buttersoft

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2018, 10:40:22 pm »
Do you think that constant geometry changes (especially if you do them via service menus) may harm a TV set (any part) in the long term?

I'd guess not. Most newer sets have size/position controls in the service menu. Delivery is via the jungle IC to the deflection circuits. I reckon modifying the deflection circuits instead just does the same thing in a different place. And older sets with physical controls are designed to be altered in-circuit. There are always going to be limits, of course. And I haven o idea what Paradroid/SCARThunter has actually done in this instance :)

Recapnation

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2018, 07:31:18 am »
I got a Trinitron's OSD unusuable after a couple of years working fine. It was a second-hand TV set actually, and it looks like it can be some caps just needing replacement, but I always wonder how a constant usage of the service options may be involved... First time getting that though; it's the fifth Trinitron I've extensively used now.

Paradroid

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2018, 04:11:07 pm »
And I have no idea what Paradroid/SCARThunter has actually done in this instance :)

http://scarthunter.blogspot.co.nz/2012/09/how-to-customise-scart-tv-for-use-with.html

Now you do. :)

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

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Jack

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2018, 04:03:55 am »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCIkKI1dhoc

(the right side of the tv is squished)

I have this problem on my tv.. All i did was select the Arcade_15 preset, use super resolutions and then adjust geometry on the tv. So i didnt tweak anything with VMMaker etc. I know that the "problem" is probably just how my crt is.. but i'm wondering if i can fix this somehow. (like overscan with the tv geometry and then make some software tweaks to center the image back)

Thanks for the help.

Paradroid

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Re: How to setup CRT geometry with multiple resolutions?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2018, 01:49:45 pm »
i'm wondering if i can fix this somehow

That's a horizontal linearity issue. Not uncommon.

Most TVs have some kind of control to adjust vertical linearity but I've never seen a TV with an adjustment for horizontal.

There is no fix for this. It's a completely different issue to overscan.

If it bothers you greatly it's time to start looking for a different TV or monitor.
My MAME/SCART/CRT blog: SCART Hunter

  
 

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