Shared High Score.dat?

[APFelon]

Okay, let's say friend "A" and friend "B" have an arcade cabinet. They both like playing Dig Dug, and are very competitive of their scores.

Is it possible for friend "A" to set up a makeshift server over the internet that keeps track of a shared hiscore.dat file? That way friend "A" and friend "B" could work with the same high score table on every game in MAME?

I always thought this would be a cool idea. Is it possible NOW, or would I have to do something wacky like recompile a MAME build? Maybe use some sort of WAN file sharing proggie or can it be done through an FTP?

APf

[SirPeale]

The hiscore.dat file isn't written to.  It's the file that MAME calls upon to see where the scores are written to in nvram.  You would have to share nvram files, and that could get sticky if someone uses settings that the other does not like.

[RetroBorg]

The hiscore.dat file isn't written to.  It's the file that MAME calls upon to see where the scores are written to in nvram.  You would have to share nvram files, and that could get sticky if someone uses settings that the other does not like.

I'm probably wrong but i thought only a few games required NVRAM files to keep the highest scores.

[Tilzs]

I'm sure you could do it by setting up a method of downloading the high score file then uploading again when done playing. Problem being though that you don't really have a version control (if both are playing at the same time). Ideal method would be to merge your new score with the master list score. That however would be much more difficult. I'm betting you'd have to do that on a game by game basis since the memory is most likely mapped in a diffent fashion. I'm guessing on that however.

[APFelon]

Fine. I made semantical error. This is what I meant to ask.

Two machines in two locations sharing high score files in MAME (regardless of what those files are). Has it been done?

[NoOne=NBA=]

It can be done relatively easy--with one provision.
You can't BOTH play at the same time.

To make this work, the first player needs to finish playing, and then replace the .hi file on the master server with the new version from his computer.
When the next player (which can be either one, but not BOTH) wants to play after this, that person needs to get the master .hi file from the server, and replace the local one on his machine.
This can be repeated as often as necessary, and will allow both players (or an entire group) access to a single hi score file that will include data from all the other players--as long as only one person USES it at a time.

The reason that only one player can USE the master file at a time, and thus play the game, is that there is no easy way to merge them (if that is possible at all).
If BOTH players were playing remotely on their own machines, and BOTH beat the current high score, the last person to post their local version of the .hi to the master server would have the new high score because their posting would overwrite the others.

[g3rg]

A friend and I have done some work on an app that reads the hi score file for certain games (every game is different pretty much, we've done about 40 odd games, some of which have clones which should be the same), and then displayed it. It is / was being built for use in a front-end, i.e. allowing you to show the hi-score table on the game selection screen.

I have also started a slight modification of the app that allowed it to read 2 files, merge them by score, and then spit out a new hi score. Although this again has to be done for each different mame game. The idea for this was to maybe one day have a web based service that allowed you to share your hi scores with your friends, not just by showing the scores on a webpage but by updating your own mame.hi files

If there is interest in it we would probably put more effort into it, but at the moment, work, girlfriends and playing the games gets in the way. One thing that could make the work better is for people to state which games they would like the system to support first etc...

[RetroBorg]

I have also started a slight modification of the app that allowed it to read 2 files, merge them by score, and then spit out a new hi score. Although this again has to be done for each different mame game. The idea for this was to maybe one day have a web based service that allowed you to share your hi scores with your friends, not just by showing the scores on a webpage but by updating your own mame.hi files

If you were to do as you suggest with your app, I assume the following would happen:

Machine A            Machine B            Combined   
1   200000   FIL      1   195000   AKL      1   200000   FIL
2   180000   FIL      2   183000   AKL      2   195000   AKL
3   170000   FIL      3   175000   AKL      3   183000   AKL
4   150000   FIL      4   142000   AKL      4   180000   FIL
5   125000   FIL      5   115000   AKL      5   175000   AKL

This would be cool if that were to happen.

But I also assume the following would happen once you are both using the combined scores and combine again:

Machine A            Machine B            Combined   
1   200000   FIL      1   200000   FIL      1   200000   FIL
2   195000   AKL      2   195000   AKL      2   200000   FIL
3   183000   AKL      3   183000   AKL      3   195000   AKL
4   180000   FIL      4   180000   FIL      4   195000   AKL
5   175000   AKL      5   175000   AKL      5   183000   AKL

Which wouldn't be very cool because the scores would be doubled up and eventualy if the hi-scores were combined enough times the top 5 would all read 200000 FIL.

Is what I'm thinking correct or is there a way to stop the new file from doubling up each time?

[g3rg]

Yeah, that problem is under consideration... the best strategy I've come up with so far is:
* merge both hi score files
* keep removing duplicates from the lowest score up until we either hit the top score or the number of entries has been reduced to the number allowed by the game
* take the top 'n' games (where n is the number allowed by the game)

The second part of the app (the merging and spitting out the file) has only had an hour or so spent on it (mostly designing and planning, although it does work for 1942...), started working on the whole thing while unemployed, then got myself a job, so havent had much time

[RetroBorg]

Yeah, that problem is under consideration... the best strategy I've come up with so far is:
* merge both hi score files
* keep removing duplicates from the lowest score up until we either hit the top score or the number of entries has been reduced to the number allowed by the game
* take the top 'n' games (where n is the number allowed by the game)

The second part of the app (the merging and spitting out the file) has only had an hour or so spent on it (mostly designing and planning, although it does work for 1942...), started working on the whole thing while unemployed, then got myself a job, so havent had much time

Well I guess you've got most things covered then, I guess removing duplicates scores (by this I guess you mean same score & same name) would be satisfactory but not perfect if you actually get the same score twice.

What about having 2 options on merging.

Option 1 - Top Scores Merger, like as discussed already.

Option 2 - Top Players Merger, keeping just the highest score of each individual player, sometimes one player is really good at a game and hogs all the hi-score places and other players can't keep track of their own personal hi-score.

Just an idea, looking forward to hearing how you a progress anyway.

[g3rg]

Good ideas... hadnt thought of the each players top score idea... One plan I had was when 2 files are received, say each with 5 scores, then merged into 1 file, with 10 scores, we would then keep that list, but spitting out the file with the 5 top scores that the mame hiscore stuff understands. So with your idea you could have it both ways, your front end / web page could show both the top scores and then each indiviplayers hi-scores.

The plan at the moment is to work mostly on the file reading, we have a java app that allows 'plugins' for new game readers, so at least this would allow the central repositry of hi scores, just doesnt spit it back into mame yet, but would be fine for front ends.

I know I said it before, but what I really would like is the list of games that people think would be best to add first, i.e. what games people would want to compete against each other for hi score...

[RetroBorg]

I know I said it before, but what I really would like is the list of games that people think would be best to add first, i.e. what games people would want to compete against each other for hi score...

1942 seems like a good place to start, here is a quick list of ones I would like to compete at:

1942 (set 1)
Amidar
Asteroids
Asteroids Deluxe (rev 2)
Berzerk (set 1)
Bomb Jack (set 1)
Canyon Bomber
Centipede (rev 3)
Circus Charlie (no level select)
Crazy Kong (set 1)
Defender (Red Label)
Dig Dug (set 1)
Elevator Action
Frogger
Galaga (Namco)
Galaxian (Namco set 1)
Gyruss
Joust (White/Green label)
Juno First
Missile Command (set 1)
Moon Cresta (Nichibutsu)
Moon Patrol
Mr. Do! (Universal)
New Rally X
Pac-Man (Midway)
Phoenix (Amstar)
Pinball Action
Rally X
Scramble
Space Invaders
Tempest (rev 3)
Time Pilot
Track and Field

[g3rg]

Ive done:

005, 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944, 19xx, acrobatm,
aerofgt, aliens, armwar, assault, asteroid, avsp,
badlands, blktiger, bublbobl, captaven, cyberlip, dino
ffight, frogger, galaga, ghouls, gng, sf2, sf2ce, sfa, sfa2
sfa3, sonicwi2, sonicwi3, spang, tmnt, uopoko, yard

and my friend has done a handful of others but I havent got the list on me at the moment. Thanks for the list, its good motivation to have other people interested...

[RetroBorg]

What would be really nice if someone was able to hack some of the games that just showed the top score e.g. galaxian - no initials and made it so it could keep the top ten scores with initials.

[g3rg]

I think thats starting to get into dreamland... would be good yes, but reverse engineering the roms on those old games and rewriting sections of it is definitely out of my league... about the best i could do would be have the hi score reader know about games without initials and when you upload your file it appends your initials to it, but then would have to disable writing of hiscores from it for obvious reasons.

Just went and looked at my code, the game I was working on the writer for was 1941 and the merge is not quite working properly, forgot I gave up after an hour or so, but will try and get to it this weekend.

A lot of the games I have done were either ones I play a lot (mpatrol, galaga, sf2), were chosen randomly, or, as is the case for all 19x games, I did 1942 and just worked around that area.

[PedroSilva]

Well

... the only way to do it is:

- All the cabs with Internet connection;
- A site with the higscore files off all the games;
- A connection made by mame upon each game start for reading highscores;
- A direct update made by mame and the end of each game to update the site (only with new scores added by the player);

I believe it's simple and everyone can use around the world.

The costs ... we could add a subscription payed anually, to support the site till the sponsers arrive  

The only problem ... is that everybody wiil have to update their cabs  

[Jakobud]

You would have to include some sort of internal check by Mame when connecting to the hi score server that would check to make sure that cheating was not used or activated in Mame.

[JamIt]

This is a great idea!  This will really get the competitive juices flowing for those single player games (and keep my brother honest when he claims to have a higher score than me in Mr. Do! )
g3rg, I like your approach to keeping it external to mame.  Too many different flavors of mame to worry about if you tried to build it in.  This really seems like a function of the front-end.
Jakobud, you make a good point of checking for cheats however.  I'm not sure how this could be accomplished reliably if not embedded within mame.  Of course with the source readily available, how long will it take for someone to bypass this check as well  
Anyway, I've got some .net experience (if you decide web services are the way to go) and am willing to lend a hand if need be.
Keep us posted,
--JamIt

[g3rg]

The plan I had to handle cheating was the creation of 'leagues'. The server would allow you to create a league. You could then let your friends that you trust join the league, and the front end / hi score system would only update your file from these people you trusted. Stopping people from cheating is a huge problem and one that I dont think can be really accomplished. As JamIt said, if someone wants to cheat to get a high score, they will find a way...

[BLACK KNIGHT]

What about the varying levels of difficulty??  I mean can't you basically setup a game to be easier or harder?  I know on my Pole Position II cabinet this is accomplished by dipswitches on the board and the manual gives recommendations on raising the difficulty level to keep players interested in the game.  I guess this might fall under the category of cheating but maybe not.

[g3rg]

Yeah, thats another thing to worry about, so I guess my plan for that was again the leagues idea and only sharing your scores with people you trust. It could never really be used for 'World Wide Master' kinda of high scores, you would still need a third party to verify you hadnt cheated etc for that sort of thing.

[jerryjanis]

The method used at marp.retrogames.com is pretty neat.  A high score submission has to be accompanied by the recorded input file.  The input file serves as proof.  It should cover most bases, including the difficulty setting and using cheat modes.  (And the replays are fun to watch!)

(I'm not really suggesting that you incorporate this, I'm just mentioning it because it's related to the topic.)

[Jakobud]

When the data is uploaded to the server, can't you just have it also upload whether or not Mame had cheating enabled while playing?

[jerryjanis]

I wonder if it would be reasonable to create a generic xml format for storing high score data which would cover all or most games?    Once that was done and made to work together with Mame it would be easy to get it to communicate with a website or any other applications somebody wanted to build.

[bigmoe]

I wonder if it would be reasonable to create a generic xml format for storing high score data which would cover all or most games?    Once that was done and made to work together with Mame it would be easy to get it to communicate with a website or any other applications somebody wanted to build.

Great idea.  Such an XML format could also serve to make the info more discrete -- I only have to update the games I care about -- and also serve to add functionality -- like saving initials in games that don't normally save initials.  This format, and the discrete nature in which records could be updated, would go a long way to making the client-server traffic more reasonable in processing speed and bandwidth, and if cleverly enough done, would lend itself well to reall dbms use for the management of it.

[g3rg]

The format I am using for storing a high score table undergoes re-work every couple of games that are completed, although I think with the latest street fighter games (e.g. sfa3) done most games should be happy. Problem was the game stored a table of 25 names, score and character played for each of the 3 modes for vs computer, and a table each for 25 characters, number of rounds and character played for PvsP games.

The only games i can think of that might be able to beat this are things like 88 Games etc that have high scores for each sport etc, or NBA Jam which stores lots of semi-irrelevant basketball statistics. But both these are stored in NVRAM files which I havent really looked at deciphering yet either.

So after a few more tricky games are done I'll try and piece together a DTD for hi score tables and see what can be done.

[jerryjanis]

Cool!  

This topic has gotten me thinking about games with weird high scores, and Quantum comes to mind.  It's a vector game where you draw circles around the bad guys to destroy them.  The top player gets to draw his initials and it's stored as a little picture (no I don't imagine that this would fit into the whole XML thing...  Just thought it was a funny one.)

[paigeoliver]

The problem is that many people have cheating enabled, so they can use speed up pac-man, but they don't ever actually use any cheats.

[g3rg]

The original plan was for the leagues idea for this reason, you share your game scores with people you trust. The effort of verifying non-cheating (and not cheating just using the 'cheats' system to make some games more playable) is too big to undertake for me, leave that for marp or whoever.

One thing I thought I should ask... current development has occured in java, before we get too far, do any of the front-end coders have a problem with that? if you would prefer it in a more native language let us know (+ reasons). There is a fare amount of code that would need to be re-written to switch, but if people can come up with a good enough argument we'll consider it.

[RetroBorg]

The original plan was for the leagues idea for this reason, you share your game scores with people you trust. The effort of verifying non-cheating (and not cheating just using the 'cheats' system to make some games more playable) is too big to undertake for me, leave that for marp or whoever.

This is the only feasible way of doing it, groups of trusted friends having their own little competitions with each other, besides, interest would wane pretty quickly if no one you knew had their initials up on every game you played with no realistic chance of ever beating them.

[Howard_Casto]

This topic in general, is a good idea.  The only problem I see with it is where the hiscores are actually stored.  In mame they cna be in the nvram, the cfg file and the hiscore or a combination of all 3.  40 games sounds impressive, but not if they are 40 games you don't like.  

I think the problem is being dealt with backwards.  Mame needs to be fixed, not the hiscore.dat  Right now mame lumps dipswitches, bookkeeping info and hiscores all in one file.  The best soluiton would be to modify mame so that all of this data is slipt out into 3 files.  Btw I'm not talking about nvram games.... these games have their storage proprely emulated, so we'd just have to leave them be.  

[bigmoe]

I think the problem is being dealt with backwards.  Mame needs to be fixed, not the hiscore.dat  Right now mame lumps dipswitches, bookkeeping info and hiscores all in one file.  The best soluiton would be to modify mame so that all of this data is slipt out into 3 files.  Btw I'm not talking about nvram games.... these games have their storage proprely emulated, so we'd just have to leave them be.  

This really is the main problem, I agree.  Given MAMEDEV's commitment to as close of emulation as possible, I'm guessing it would be a hard sell to the team (does this sound right, Howard?).  But perhaps such a centralized system could be added as an option?

[Howard_Casto]

Well that's the thing though.... with the exception of nvram, the information stored in the files is not arcade accurate at all....


For example, dipswitch settings aren't stored anywhere at all, they are a physical switch. (except for "soft dips" which are stored in nvram)  So why were they lumped togther in the cfg file when they should be in a dipswitch file? Input is the same way.... There is no such thing as key definitions on a real cab, but once again they were lumped in the main cfg file. Ctrlr files are already in place, they should be finished so that this cfg nonsense can be phased out.  

When you take out all of that junk then you have nothing in the cfg file but hi-scores.  Now each game would probably save in a different format, but this is still dramatically easier to interface with.  

Btw I'm not really complaining, I just don't understand why many of the primary mame devs waste time getting a state of the art game to run at 4fps while they could be helping R Belmont with much needed core changes.  It seems to me that it'd make much more sense to fix some of these issues first.  

[RetroBorg]

Perhaps someone like Howard might know the answer to this question.

This guy here http://www.arcades.org.uk/ , hacks roms and adds top 5 high score tables to games like Galaxian, can these roms be downloaded and emulated by MAME so we can keep the top 5 scores?