Gauntlet Dark legacy MAME conversion help

[crapjoint]

I just picked up a Gauntlet Dark Legacy Cabinet, all working great and want to convert it to a MAME cabinet and use the 27" arcade monitor in it.  Can anyone tell me the quickest and easiest way to do this?  Should I get a J-pac and ArcadeVGA and would that be all I need?  Also the joysticks are 49way optical, can I use them or do I need to get new ones to use?  Please be as specific as possible as I'm new to this.  If I go with the J-pac I want to get my whole order ready so I can get everything at once.  Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks

[APFelon]

Start here:

http://www.arcadecontrols.com/arcade.htm

That'll answer A LOT of your questions.

If you want an opinion on JPAC and ArcadeVGA, I use them both and I like them a lot, especially under WinXP. They are both high quality products and Andy (the guy who sells them( is polite and very prompt. I think that'll be the easiest way to go.

APf

[crapjoint]

I read through that page, but what I am looking for is specific info on my cabinet.  Like can I use the buttons and joysticks and such, and what scan rate my monitor has and more info and such to make it easier to convert.  The page you listed has built from scratch and other conversions, which helped but wasn't really what I was looking for.  Thanks though

[GroovyTuesdaY]

Sure you can use the joysticks and buttons!!   You will just need to find out what kind of encoder you want to use.   You may have to do some some rewireing or cut some of the harness ends off at least so you can connect the wires to your encoder.
Otherwise its all good man!     As far as the monitor useage, i don't know how that all works. I have never done any of that stuff  **YET**
This stuff is so time consuming that its hard to find time to do all the stuff i would like to. hehe.

If i may ask, what kind of price did you get the cab for?

Good luck,
GroovY~:D

[crapjoint]

I picked up the cabinet really cheap, (I though anyway, a few hundred Canadian dollars).  Works great and the cabinet looked like new.  What is the encoder you were talking about?  Is that like the I-Pac, which from what I understood, J-Pac did the same and more?  Is there a way to do things so I can reverse them if wanted and restore cabinet to original?  

[APFelon]

AH, I see.

The KLOV has it listed as a medium res monitor, which means it is 25KHz. Some monitors have a way of switching it to a standard resolution, so you may want to have a peek (ArcadeVGA does not do medium res). KLOV is wrong OFTEN, I have found, so make sure. There might be markings on the chassis or tube that gives a res specification.

The joysticks and such should be compatible, but I imagine that you'd want to set up a panel that suits your needs. A lot of folks use the "Street Fighter" configuration- two sticks and six buttons per stick. Many people set it up different than that. Just figure out what you are going to play most on the cab, devise a good config, and count the materials you have versus what you need.

Make sure the joys are 8-way (four microswitches per joy) and not some custom optical deal or whatever.

I think that's it. Be careful when messing with the monitor. High voltage present even when not powered up. Let us know what type/brand/model it is and I'm sure someone will tell you everything you need to know about it. If not, call the manufacturer and pick their brains.

Good luck! Post pics!

APf

[GroovyTuesdaY]

Not sure about the J-PAC compared to the IPAC, but yea, the IPAC or a KEYWIZ encoder is what i was talking about.    I would say to keep your arcade unit in a restorative  state, DO NOT drill any extra holes in the panel or make any kind of cuts for trackballs etc.  Make sure you store the original GAMEBOARD in a safe place (in an antistatic bag for safety)  Withouth seeing what the wireing situation is, you might want to hold onto and DOCUMENT and LABEL  what connectors you have to cut off so you can wire your encoder.    Like i said im not sure what you have to do about the monitor and any wires, but i would say the same would apply, MAKE LABELS to from scotch tape or something similar that you can wrap around the wires so if you ever wanted to restore the cab, you will know exactly where everything goes back again.
Good luck,
Groovy~

[GroovyTuesdaY]

Make sure the joys are 8-way (four microswitches per joy) and not some custom optical deal or whatever.

As long as the joysticks are stock legacy joys. then i beleive they are optical.  
So, if thats the case you will need to identify what brand they are so you can look up how to the wireing.   Just take your time in all of this and don't make any snap decisions and you will be fine
g~

[crapjoint]

For setting up the panel, I actually like the configuration it has, just want to add a few more buttons for other games, depending on wether I decide to modify the panel or not.  Will I need anything special to hook up these joysticks on it since they are optical?  for the monitor, the only thing I see is the below info on a sticker.

Zenith
100-00809-09
A68AGDD1X
D4RC0156-008
EIA101

[SirPoonga]

Things you need to find out

1)  What type of monitor.  low, medium, high res.  If it is the medium res you are in tough luck.  I don't know anything about that.

2) the 49-ways.  You really can't use them on a pc for mame joysticks.  You can hook them up as noted on analog mame's site for JUST the 49way games.  (If you don't want them PM me, I am looking for 49ways).
you will most likely have to replace those joys.

The jpac will work, to an extent.  I don't think there's enough inputs to handle 4 joys with 2 buttons each.  4 * (4 + 2 + 1 +1) = 32.  Nope, not enough inputs on an jpac.  You need to go mini-pac or keywiz.  you can easily make it so you can switch between dark legacy and a mame computer though by creating a custom harness.

[Sephroth57]

i envy your cabinet  

[crapjoint]

Anyone else have any advice on this?

[paigeoliver]

Here is both a question, and some advice.

The question is WHY?

Why would you rip up a late model dedicated game to make a Mame cabinet that will be worth LESS money when you are done with it. That game costs ALOT of money. Sell it, and use the money to do your project without ripping up a working game.

This is exactly the kind of stuff that makes the arcade community in general hate mamers, and that gives Mame a bad name. Tearing up perfectly good working games when there are thousands upon thousands of dead, stripped, and otherwise non-working games out there.

Yes I know you are excited that you just discovered Mame, or that you finally found a cabinet. But you weren't looking hard enough, or in the right place.

Let me restate this again, the cabinets are out there. I have 4 dead ones in my basement, and may pick up two more soon. They are out there in huge numbers, and ripping up a perfectly good working game makes you nothing more than an idiot.

Secondly.

That is not the most suitable cabinet for Mame. 49-way joysticks and  medium resolution monitors are both items that are technically usable, but far from ideal.

Thirdly, where do you live? There are a lot of Mame builders out there. You can probably find someone who would give you a Mame cabinet for your Dark Legacy, and then you won't have to even bother building one. If you live near St. Louis I'll give you a comple working Mame cabinet for it.

[GroovyTuesdaY]

Dang , man i would take you up on that one if i were him paige heheeh.
Sounds like a great trade if you ask me!
I wish i could find a dead cab in my area. I am not sure where to even look around the FORT WAYNE indiana area.   I have contacted several arcade companies and they A) didnt have anything or B) wanted  500-1000 dollars for something.   I kept asking them if they had or knew where i might be able to get me a game that didn't work, but those were the answers i got.          Most of the BIG arcades aren't around anymore, which is a shame.   I still get a gitty intoxicating feeling when i walk into a nice size arcade and all the lights are blinking and the games attract noises are going.  AHHHHHH....   I just get an excited feeling! I'm sure most of you know that of which i speak  

GroovY ~

[crapjoint]

Firstly, I live in St. Catharines, Ontario.  If you know someone that wants to trade me for a fully working Mame machine then I'd like to see it and we could talk.  Secondly, I never said anything about ripping anything apart, if you'd take the time and read the whole post you'd see I wanted to keep everything reversable to put back.  Thirdly, although I do understand where you are coming from about not destroying things, as I restore classic cars also, and understand about not ruing perfectly good things, especially collectible, that is still no reason to call someone an idiot or flame someone you don't know and don't know anything about.  Lastly, I've also been on the other side, where it's my money, my machine and I'll do what I want with it.

[IG-88]

and ripping up a perfectly good working game makes you nothing more than an idiot.

Hey, I don't think you're an idiot. Although I agree with paigeoliver and that you shouldn't cut this one up. They are out there. I live in the middle of nowhere and from just learning where & how & when to look I've had no problems finding them. I even know where there is a Rally-X in the Hayloft of an old farmers barn that my mom knows. How the hell he got the thing up there.....

You'll learn that around here, talking about cutting a working cab gets some people REALLY WORKED UP!

I took an old Final Fight machine that I got for next to nothing, cleaned it up, and set it back to play for .25 a game (was .50). After getting the license ($25/yr) I put it in a friends shop and let the locals play it. It's not making me a fortune but its paid for itself + a little. Kinda satisfying.  
Or set it for free play and let your neighborhood kids play it. You could parlay that for yardwork!

[Sephroth57]

and ripping up a perfectly good working game makes you nothing more than an idiot.

Hey, I don't think you're an idiot. Although I agree with paigeoliver and that you shouldn't cut this one up. They are out there. I live in the middle of nowhere and from just learning where & how & when to look I've had no problems finding them. I even know where there is a Rally-X in the Hayloft of an old farmers barn that my mom knows. How the hell he got the thing up there.....

You'll learn that around here, talking about cutting a working cab gets some people REALLY WORKED UP!

I took an old Final Fight machine that I got for next to nothing, cleaned it up, and set it back to play for .25 a game (was .50). After getting the license ($25/yr) I put it in a friends shop and let the locals play it. It's not making me a fortune but its paid for itself + a little. Kinda satisfying.  
Or set it for free play and let your neighborhood kids play it. You could parlay that for yardwork!

whoa i never thought of that, i could tell some kid he gets an hour in my garage of MAME if he cuts my lawn every week. muhhahahahaha, i hate cutting the lawn, the perfect solution!!

[APFelon]

Firstly, I live in St. Catharines, Ontario.  If you know someone that wants to trade me for a fully working Mame machine then I'd like to see it and we could talk.  Secondly, I never said anything about ripping anything apart, if you'd take the time and read the whole post you'd see I wanted to keep everything reversable to put back.  Thirdly, although I do understand where you are coming from about not destroying things, as I restore classic cars also, and understand about not ruing perfectly good things, especially collectible, that is still no reason to call someone an idiot or flame someone you don't know and don't know anything about.  Lastly, I've also been on the other side, where it's my money, my machine and I'll do what I want with it.

I don't think he called you an idiot or flamed you. Just keep in mind that this group is pretty passionate (and a bit nuts, myself included) and MAMEing dedicated machines is a hot topic of debate around here.

Good luck!

APf

[Sephroth57]

oh.. and i would use a Gauntlet Dark Legacy machine for MAME if i had one... it has 4 players, it has cool side art, and you can always swap in the PCB to play! i dont see where you go wrong.

that is JAMMA btw right?

[SirPeale]

I think the best solution would be to pull the CP and board, get a J-PAC, build a new CP from the design of the original, and get new controls.  That's just me, though.

[CCM]

Here is both a question, and some advice.

The question is WHY?

Why would you rip up a late model dedicated game to make a Mame cabinet that will be worth LESS money when you are done with it. That game costs ALOT of money. Sell it, and use the money to do your project without ripping up a working game.

This is exactly the kind of stuff that makes the arcade community in general hate mamers, and that gives Mame a bad name. Tearing up perfectly good working games when there are thousands upon thousands of dead, stripped, and otherwise non-working games out there.

Yes I know you are excited that you just discovered Mame, or that you finally found a cabinet. But you weren't looking hard enough, or in the right place.

Let me restate this again, the cabinets are out there. I have 4 dead ones in my basement, and may pick up two more soon. They are out there in huge numbers, and ripping up a perfectly good working game makes you nothing more than an idiot.

Secondly.

That is not the most suitable cabinet for Mame. 49-way joysticks and  medium resolution monitors are both items that are technically usable, but far from ideal.

Thirdly, where do you live? There are a lot of Mame builders out there. You can probably find someone who would give you a Mame cabinet for your Dark Legacy, and then you won't have to even bother building one. If you live near St. Louis I'll give you a comple working Mame cabinet for it.

damn,  I think calling someone an idiot is pretty harsh.  Especially when he never said he was going to rip anyting apart.  He specifically asked how to get the original equipment working with mame.  He said he may add a few buttons, but he's not even sure about that yet.  Talk about giving mame a bad name!  Calling someone that is new to the hobby an idiot isn't going to help anyone.

[SirPoonga]

oh.. and i would use a Gauntlet Dark Legacy machine for MAME if i had one... it has 4 players, it has cool side art, and you can always swap in the PCB to play! i dont see where you go wrong.

that is JAMMA btw right?

Incorrect.  Dark Legacy is JAMMA+.  Look at my calculations, not enough inputs on the jpac to support this setup.

And, as mentioned, it is a medium res monitor, which is a pain to get working.  Also he has 49ways, which are practically worthless as a mame cabinet.

Dark Legacy is just not a good choice for conversion.  Most of the newer midway games (gauntlet, nfl blitz, nba jam) are good cabinets, horrible conversions.  They are great for mame because they are big and have alot of room.  They are bad though because getting the monitor and the 49ways to work is either not possible or extremely difficult.

[Stingray]

it's my money, my machine and I'll do what I want with it.

I totally understand that attitude. If it were mine, I'd feel the same way about it. However, if it were mine I don't think I could bring myself to MAME it.

-S

[crapjoint]

Thanks for the replies.  There seems to be 2 different ways of thinking here.  I see both sides and have no problem either way.  I completely agree with not ruining a good machine, I disagree with calling someone an idiot and getting upset when they don't know the person, nor take the time to read.  All these posts and my question isn't really answered yet.  Some say the joysticks and monitor will work, some say it won't?  And yes, it is a Jamma, although I'm not sure Jamma plus.  Reason is, this game was supposed to be made in 2000 but monitor and date on machine say 1998, so it was probably converted from another game.  Would this make it Jamma+ and what is the difference from regular Jamma?  Also if I use J-Pac, can't I link it with an Ipac to have enough inputs?  And does someone have a definite answer on wether I can use the monitor and joysticks or not?  Can I just wire the monitor direct to the PC and use Advmame to set the correct rate?  Thanks for the replies, good or bad.

[CthulhuLuke]

What Sirpoonga's saying is that the J-pac's input will only literally take 4 joysticks with 2 buttons a piece.  Go here:
http://www.ultimarc.com/jpac.html   and count the amount of silver plug-ins, minus one for a ground.  26 inputs correct?  a joystick w/ 4 microswitches will take 4 slots, 4 joysticks + 4 slots = 16 slots so far,  you have 10 more plug-ins between 4 seperate controllers which means a max of 2 buttons a piece with 2 left over.
But the major factor between MAME and this Dark Legacy cabinet is the controllers are 49-way optical controllers, which means you're not going to be playing MAME with them unless you figure out a way to get an 8-way output out of them, but you'll be the first.  So essentially either find another cabinet, maybe see if you can trade yours for an original cps-3 machine *those boards sell for quite a bit on ebay if you get something like Alpha 3 or something*, then make a mame cab out of that using the j-pac.  You could also convert your Dark Legacy cabinet, I personally would have no objections to it because its such a new cabinet and you're not really ruining anything classic and hard to find.  Is it a showcase cab or a stand-up?  cause I'm pretty sure i've seen both, although they might only make the real ones in showcase format.

[Sephroth57]

or you could just slap in some new joysticks and youre good

[crapjoint]

I knew the J-pac wasn't enough, that's why I asked if I could link an Ipac with it, which I believe it said was possible on Ultimarc.  But my main issue is the monitor, if I can hook it up direct, and am going to have to change the joysticks anyway then it might not even be worth it to get the JPac and might be better just to get 2 Ipacs.  I wanted the 4 controllers, with 2 with 6 buttons, and 2 with 4 buttons.  So I know I can't use the joysticks, but what about the monitor?  I believe I found it was a WG K7500, which it says on the chassis.

[SirPoonga]

If you swap out the 49-ways with 8way stick you can used a mini-pac which was just released at ultimarc.com.

[crapjoint]

I just went there and don't see the link, do you have the link?

[paigeoliver]

Ok, getting back to your actual questions.

You can use 49-way joysticks if you use Mame analog+, they take 8 inputs each, since you have 4 of them that would make 32 inputs just for the joysticks. You would also have to use special cntlr files to use the 49-way joys in standard 8-way games.

The mid resolution monitor is also theoretically usable with certain video cards using a special cable and MSDOS. I haven't actually read about anyone who actually did it, but apparently it can work. Realize that only mid-res games will be "correct", and normal games will be stretched to fit. But on the plus side the vertical games should look awesome, because they pretty much will be running at the correct resolution.

You might want to try posting a message to rec.games.video.arcade.marketplace offering to trade your Dark Legacy machine for a Mame cabinet. You might get several replies, you might not.

Many games shipped new with older monitors, it is not at all strange to crack open a game and find out the monitor is a year or two older than the game. The monitor tube got made by the tube manufacturer, then the monitor chassis got made, then they got assembled by the manufacturer, then it sat in their warehouse until the game company made a big order, then it sat in the game companies warehouse until it actually got put in a game. That time can add up to much later than any date sticker on the monitor.

Also many games get their monitors replaced and swapped around, so you never know if you have the original monitor or not.

To everyone looking for games, distributors and operators are the wrong places to look. Most of them don't have crap anymore. The places to get them are other collectors, classified advertisements, auctions, and game resellers.

For other collectors look on rgvac, klov.com, and here (in that order). Use google to search RGVAC for the name of your city or state, then contact posters who live in your area to see if they have anything or know anyone who does.

Check the local classified ads everyday. Games usually pop up pretty regularly.

Not every place gets arcade auctions, but many places do. So go if you can.

To locate game resellers search ebay for local games, and see if anyone in your area is selling more than one. Contact the people who have multiple games for sale, and see what else they have. Those guys usually have tons of stuff, and often don't want to deal with dead conversions because they aren't worth the labor involved in fixing them. Dead conversions are perfect for Mame.

[crapjoint]

For the date of 1998 it also says that on the cabinet in a few places.  Where can I find the proper monitor to use for Mame?  Are there a few good games that have monitors 25" or more that have the right monitor, or can I buy one fairly cheap if I pick up an empty cabinet, and if so where?

[paigeoliver]

Well your Dark Legacy machine is likely a Gauntlet Legends machine that was updated to Dark Legacy, which explains the date of manufacture.

25" monitor cabinets always cost more than 19" cabinets, but they are out there. Follow what I said in my recent post about the real place to find games, just be willing to pay more.

It is possible that your monitor is a switchable resolution monitor. Get the model number of it, and then google it to see if it is a switchable monitor.

[crapjoint]

I can't seem to find the model number anywhere on the tube?  On the chassis it says only replace with K7500, but now someone said that is a 25" monitor, and mine is 27".  Thanks for the help.

[paigeoliver]

I can't seem to find the model number anywhere on the tube?  On the chassis it says only replace with K7500, but now someone said that is a 25" monitor, and mine is 27".  Thanks for the help.

Go with the number on the chassis, you don't get model numbers from tubes anyway, as the same model monitor might have shipped with a half dozen different tubes. (And a half dozen different monitor models might have used the same tube).

[crapjoint]

Am I looking for the Horizontal Sync frequency or resolution?  I found the spec sheet on the K7500 and it does come in 27" so it should be that.  It says on the sheet that it is 25kHz Horizontal Sync, and under Resolution it says Video Bandwidth-15Mhz and 640X400?  How would I know if it was switchable?

[paigeoliver]

Ok, I checked for you. That monitor is medium resolution only, it is not switchable.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&q=K7500+standard+group%3Arec.games.video.arcade.*&meta=group%3Drec.games.video.arcade.*

My personal suggestion is to leave that game intact and track down a dead/empty 19" game and Mame that instead. That way you can have the fun and excitement of a big 4-player game, and you can also have a Mame cabinet to sit next to it. A 19" Mame cabinet and a 27" Dark Legacy is better than a 27" Mame cabinet any day (and you could probably do the whole 19" 2-player cabinet for cheaper than it would cost you to refit that Gauntlet anyway).