Comparing NES (1985), Raspberry Pi, NES Classic w/ SONY CRT 4:3 & HDMI Converter

[mrclean]

I have a rather interesting comparison using a SONY CRT 4:3 showing the differences between the original NES (1985), The Raspberry Pi (Running a Nintendo Emulator / using Emulation Station), as well as the Nintendo Classic Edition / NES Mini without any mods / NO Hakchi2 etc...

First of all my SONY CRT Does not have any HDMI inputs on it. So I'm using an HDMI to Composite (standard RCA or Red White and Yellow cables) converter which is actually this one:

https://www.amazon.com/GANA-Composite-Converter-Adapter-Supporting/dp/B01KXI8LZE/ref=sr_1_7?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1486583781&sr=1-7&keywords=hdmi+to+composite

Running the original NES (1985) on the 4:3 SONY CRT produces a full normal nice image without using any converters as it just uses the composite in/outputs...


Without anything plugged in this is what the converter from amazon shows on the Sony CRT 4:3:


This is the menu for Nintendo Classic Edition aka Mini NES using the HDMI to Composite converter(seems to fill the screen fine):


and now this is the problem.. Running the actual game on the Nintendo Classic Edition it seems to squeeze / shrink the image? : it's set to 4:3 mode, not on pixel perfect / pixel perfect actually squeezes the image more..


Just for curiosity the same exact thing happened on the Raspberry Pi (Menu essentially looks fine.. *however..


*Raspberry Pi with HDMI to Composite converter also squeezing screen in-game (not as bad as the NES Classic Edition / mini, but still noticable):


Any way to fix the squeezing image produced on the raspberry pi / classic nes while using my 4:3 Sony CRT with that HDMI to Composite adapter ?

[pbj]

Does your TV have any settings in the menu to play with the image width?

[mrclean]

I shouldn't need to skew / adjust anything on the CRT monitor. I think it can be resolved via software definitely with the Raspberry Pi (perhaps a config file?)... Not sure if another update of Hakchi2 eventually most likely could / will have that setting. I was so optimistic thinking with that adapter it would just be plug and play and provide a similar picture at least size wise to the original NES running on the 4:3 SONY CRT to no avail. It's odd though as the menus seem tolerable / fill the screen yet in game on both the Raspberry Pi and NES Classic Edition image is reduced on a 4:3 CRT.

The way the games are meant to be played on, and doesn't appear the way it should. I wish it looked the same as the original NES which looks wayyyy better. Don't get me wrong on my LCD Sony wide screen 65'' looks fine when it adjust it to a 4:3, it's not shrunken or skewed, it's proportionate the way it should be.

I also kinda wish the NES had composite out put for us old school people that want to use the good ol' CRT's of yesterland. The short cord doesn't bother me as they make blue tooth / wireless controllers along with adapters as well as extension cables. Hopefully someone can resolve this.

[pbj]

That's nice, dear.  Come back when you've hit the MENU button on your remote.

[mrclean]

That's nice, dear.  Come back when you've hit the MENU button on your remote.

It's simply creating an additional problem The menu / load screens look fine by doing so it would shrink way too much. My request is that It's hopefully a known future software option fix. The image aspect ratio needs to be fixed via software. Hopefully someone can chime in that can fix / point me in the right direction resolving through an update on hakchi2 or the pi / emu settings.

[paigeoliver]

Hmm, both the Pi and the MiniNes seem to have the same problem that the X in 1 arcade boards do, in that the menu screens are perfectly sized but the games themselves don't fill the screen (unless using VGA mode). I wouldn't doubt it if they all were running some of the same code.

[mrclean]

After putting my sony CRT with the only mode it has to adjust the screen it's called "Enhanced 16_9 Mode" in doing so while running the NES Classic Edition on the CRT it basically creates a box within a box aka 4:3 inside a 4:3 shrunken down... please I hope with all the mods and hacks that seem to be on the horizon for the NES Classic someone can resolve the display issue when trying to use a traditional CRT 4:3.... Am I the only one that wants to run this thing on a CRT, The way the games were originally meant to be displayed on !!!

[Slippyblade]

You are shoving an HDMI signal though an adapter.  Weird issues like what you've got are not unexpected.  What happens with the Pi if you use the composite out to the TV?  It looks fine on my box.

[ark_ader]

Looks pretty good to me.  Where did you get that converter from?

[mrclean]

You are shoving an HDMI signal though an adapter.  Weird issues like what you've got are not unexpected.  What happens with the Pi if you use the composite out to the TV?  It looks fine on my box.

 I don't have composite out on the pi that I'm utilizing, just have hdmi to my adapter to my TV. regardless of the PI Nintendo Classic issue would still remain being it ONLY has HDMI Out. I feel that if one gets fixed they can both be fixed / corrected.


Perhaps it's the adapter I don't know at this point.. If someone has a working adapter with my same type set up I'm all ears ! I still feel this can certainly be resolved with a .cfg / .ini file type update to resolve the aspect ratio / size issue while trying to utilize the Nintendo Classic Mini.

Looks pretty good to me.  Where did you get that converter from?

What looks good to you , meaning my image comparison NES 1985 vs. NSEC 2016 on my CRT ? If so i feel that sure the image quality is OK, that's not the issue about clarity so much it's OK. Again it's the SIZE / RATIO that's driving me nuts. The fact that it's not completly utilizing the FULL / ENTIRE screen like the original 1985 NES does on a Real Old School Sony CRT 4:3.

Or... do you mean looks good to me as in you have a similar set up and yours looks good... IF so you are using a CRT 4:3 Standard Def TV without any HDMI inputs on the TV, as well as utilizing the NES Classic Edition, and using an HDMI to composite adapter ? If a different working adapter / if you are using an alternative piece of hardware please let me know IF that's what's needed to fix the issue. I feel that this can be fixed via an option within the software, just as those options on the limited display menu CRT Filter. 4:3 Mode, Pixel Perfect... a new mode needs to appear and say "REAL | ACTUAL| TUBE 4:3 CRT MODE".

[elvis]

and now this is the problem.. Running the actual game on the Nintendo Classic Edition it seems to squeeze / shrink the image? : it's set to 4:3 mode, not on pixel perfect / pixel perfect actually squeezes the image more..

That's definitely a 16:9 image being sent to your TV, which is just showing the full width in it's 4:3 display, squashing it.

The "4:3" mode from the NES Classic assumes a 16:9 screen, and adds "pillarbox" borders left and right as filler for widescreen TVs.

You need to find a HDMI to analogue converter that can crop the image, not squash it.

After putting my sony CRT with the only mode it has to adjust the screen it's called "Enhanced 16_9 Mode" in doing so while running the NES Classic Edition on the CRT it basically creates a box within a box aka 4:3 inside a 4:3 shrunken down

And now you have pillarbox AND a letterbox padding.  Again, you need to find a converter that can crop, not pillarbox/letterbox/stretch.

Am I the only one that wants to run this thing on a CRT

No, you're not.  But folks who are running them on CRTs are probably using good quality converters or broadcast monitors with crop controls built in.

The way the games were originally meant to be displayed on !!!

I love Nintendo, but they have never in all their years catered to enthusiasts.  Their products are akin to Apple, where they offer limited options only for the lowest common denominator.  If you're serious about the correct display stuff, you will have to put in the hard work yourself (like the modding community does when it comes to getting good quality RGB signals out of older Nintendo consoles).

And, to be fair, you won't get a picture "the way it was meant to be displayed", because most cheap converters out to an SDTV is going to produce an interlaced image, when the original console was a progressive scan picture.  The only way to overcome that is to get a good quality scaler that can send a progressive scan picture out, as covered in these pages:

http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/
http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/

So while you're perhaps being pedantic about how accurate you want the display, there's a whole extra level of pedantry to go yet, and you've barely scratched the surface.

[ark_ader]

Looks pretty good to me.  Where did you get that converter from?

What looks good to you , meaning my image comparison NES 1985 vs. NSEC 2016 on my CRT ? If so i feel that sure the image quality is OK, that's not the issue about clarity so much it's OK. Again it's the SIZE / RATIO that's driving me nuts. The fact that it's not completly utilizing the FULL / ENTIRE screen like the original 1985 NES does on a Real Old School Sony CRT 4:3.

Or... do you mean looks good to me as in you have a similar set up and yours looks good... IF so you are using a CRT 4:3 Standard Def TV without any HDMI inputs on the TV, as well as utilizing the NES Classic Edition, and using an HDMI to composite adapter ? If a different working adapter / if you are using an alternative piece of hardware please let me know IF that's what's needed to fix the issue. I feel that this can be fixed via an option within the software, just as those options on the limited display menu

I have a TV that the HDMI inputs are not working, so I can use VGA or component.  I have a Kworld 1440 that I use to get similar results like you have but it is old and I am looking for a better solution.  I think I might have found one.  Where did you get that box?

[mrclean]

  "pillarbox" borders left and right as filler for widescreen TVs.

You need to find a HDMI to analogue converter that can crop the image, not squash it.
......

And now you have pillarbox AND a letterbox padding.  Again, you need to find a converter that can crop, not pillarbox/letterbox/stretch.

Familiar with the terminology ...do you or ANY ONE have a specific recommendation on a known working adapter / converter with my same set up that will work!?

OR can this be FIXED via a hakchi2 update ? SOFTWARE by Madmonkey or Cluster ?! (As a new Traditional CRT DISPLAY MODE ?)

Where did you get that box?

https://www.amazon.com/GANA-Composite-Converter-Adapter-Supporting/dp/B01KXI8LZE/ref=sr_1_8?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1486609102&sr=1-8&keywords=hdmi+to+composite

[elvis]

OR can this be FIXED via a hakchi2 update ?

No idea, but a quick google of that tool you mention suggests the author offers advanced command line hacking of the internal emulator. Maybe you can feed it different resolutions/overscan options to fill the screen (i.e.: stretch the image to a full 16:9 picture), and then your converter will squash that back to a 4:3 image?  I dunno.

(As a new Traditional CRT DISPLAY MODE ?)

Eh, you just want "fill" instead of "pillar box".  Let's not go using excessively flowery/artistic terms here.

[welash]

On the Raspberry Pi, have you tried editing the config.txt file to force the hdmi output to 480p?  looking at https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/configuration/config-txt.md it looks like you would set hdmi_group=1 and hdmi_mode=2.  That may only be to set the boot screen to that mode, so you migt also need to do something for the display when emulationstation comes up, but it is worth a shot.

[matsadona]

I don't have composite out on the pi that I'm utilizing, just have hdmi to my adapter to my TV.

Doesn't all Pi's have composite video output?

[pbj]

Yes, but you gotta buy that $2 camcorder cable.

[Nephasth]

You have an old CRT TV. You want to play NES games? The NES Classic looks like crap on the CRT... You have an original NES that looks great on the CRT... Buy an SD cart for your NES and be done.

[JDFan]

I don't have composite out on the pi that I'm utilizing, just have hdmi to my adapter to my TV.

Doesn't all Pi's have composite video output?

Pi zero does not have unless you solder the connectors on (then only has video - no audio)
Pi 3 requires the 3.5mm SRRT connector that is properly wired ( ground and video input are switched on many of the connector so you have to be sure to get one that is properly wired !! ( MP3 and Camcorders use the same type of SRRT connector but do not use the Sleeve as video like the pi has since there is no confirmed wiring standard for those adapters ! )

[keilmillerjr]

I don't have composite out on the pi that I'm utilizing, just have hdmi to my adapter to my TV.

Doesn't all Pi's have composite video output?

Rpi firmware only allows 480i out of composite connection. They really need to provide an update to allow different resolutions, especially 240p.

I have the radio shack hdmi to composite adapter and hav been using it with my Apple TV for two weeks. It works, but is shi tty. Processing stops come times for a second at random. Tv has flashing some times. Is this hdpc or whatever copy protection? Also has slight scaling issue. Doesn't matter for movies and such. Games would totally suck and I would have to try and adjust tv or do some thing. Was my adaptor an $40 pile of poo? At least I have Netflix back and I'll never go back to LCD. Love my crt but tape collection be out of control.