I-PAC VS KEYWIZ....

[GroovyTuesdaY]

I am looking for some input about the KEYWIZ encoder.    I currently have an IPAC 4 player encoder and have been VERY HAPPY with it, but i am wondering if many have any experience with the KEYWIZ  encoder?
Is this encoder easy to work with and program like the IPAC?  
In general, what are some pros and cons of the keywiz?

thanks,
groovy~

[SirPoonga]

Why do you ask?  
You have an ipac4.  The keywiz doesn;t have the number of inputs the ipac4 has.  This topic has been discussed before.

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=14404;start=0


Now, if people can limit this to a civilized conversation we won't lock it.


Personally I think the new mini-pac is a bette solution, unless you don't want a tall or spinner.  Then it's a toss up.

[Tiger-Heli]

This topic has been discussed before.

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=14404;start=0

Now, if people can limit this to a civilized conversation we won't lock it.

Personally I think the new mini-pac is a better solution, unless you don't want a t-ball or spinner.  Then it's a toss up.

Agreed, KeyWiz vs. I-PAC/2 has been debated extensively in the referenced thread.

The mini-pac is a different animal from the above, better in  some ways, worse in others.

Here are my personal opinions on it:

Pro's:

No wires to strip and crimp.

Small board size.

36-input version will eventually be available (at same price).

Supports one trackball or two spinners.

Con's:

Will not work with the new WinIpac IPD software.

Wiring - Uses a pre-made harness or can use an IDE cable.  IDE cables are hard to crimp to.  The pre-made harness will possibly be too short (yes, you can use extension cables, but . . . ) or more likely too long (you can cut and put on a new terminal end, but then you're eliminating the reduction in effort of the pre-made harness).  Also, the pre-made harness uses 1/4-inch terminals and most arcade controls use 3/16-inch (although some use 1/4-inch).

Wiring - With an I-PAC/2, you can move wires to a new terminal, with a mini-pac, you can swap switches, but if you've shortened wires as mentioned above, then it won't be a pretty mod.

Trackball/spinner support - The built-in support is basically half of an Opti-Pac, but it won't work with all trackballs (like the Opti-Pac will).

Cost - With a pre-made harness, the board is about the same price as an I-PAC/2, but you do get half of an opti-pac included.

Unknown:  I'm not sure if the t-ball interface will auto-switch between spinners and t-ball like an opti-pac will.  (I think it does, but didn't want to say one way or the other without knowing).

P.S. Sorry for taking the thread off-topic.

[Lilwolf]

And one last note:

There hasn't been a bad thing said about ANY of the encoders being sold here!

REALLY!

Buy one and you WILL be happy with it!  Get one that will fit the number of inputs you need + a few extra (incase).

Some are easier to wire (doesn't happen every day... but it is a nice feature)

Some are easier to program (doesn't happen every day... unless you have hotswappable control panels... And again... once thats done.. you don't dont config it every day, just download premade configs to them.)

Price...  but I think they all have price/features very similar.

What you WONT find different.

Hotswapping.
Speed.
Matrix.
Ghosting.

So pick the one you like... and be happy with it!

[Tiger-Heli]

And one last note:

There hasn't been a bad thing said about ANY of the encoders being sold here!

REALLY!

Agreed.  They have some different features, but all do their basic functionality VERY WELL! and probably 60% of users would be just as happy with any one of them as one of the others.

[eightbit]

There is no "which one is best". You need to decide which one fits your application better.

I'm partial to the keywiz. I've used several of both interfaces. The ipac is as good as a keywiz and I'd say it just as easy to implement.

In your basic configurations they are almost the same. In advanced configurations they both have unique features that could sway you one way or the other.

Read the other threads debating the specific features and functionality and decide which one you want.

[steve_pss]

Wow..
I just read some of the orginal thread. Can't beleive how low down that got!!

Did everyone make nice at the end or was it solved via Texas chain match?

[GroovyTuesdaY]

My apologies for REopening this thread. I jumped the gun last night and  just plopped the question out there, before checking to see if there was another time the topic was discussed. (bad habit of mine lol)

I will read through the link provided and see what all was discussed.
Basically in the end i am just trying to save a little money, so i was trying to decide if there was  any drawbacks to the keywiz,since it was here in the states.   I wish ANDY had a distributer here in the states so the shipping wasn't such a bite for an order of one ipac.

Regarding my 4 player i-pac, i was just mentioning it to say that i have one and know what its like.  The panel i am going to build is going to be a 2 player panel, BUT I might have 2 joysticks per player, so i will have to consider that.   Wonder why keywiz hasn't offered a 4 player setup yet? Maybe cost? hmm.

Thanks for the input though guys!  I am in agreement about MINIPAC~that thing looks AWESOME for the money!  Lets face it,STRIPPING & CRIMPING  **SUCK**!!!!! lol.

thanks again,
GROOVY ~

[Stingray]

I got more out of the first five or so replies to this thread than I did out of the entire other thread. That was pretty much just a slagfest between the encoders' developers.

-S

[Tiger-Heli]

I got more out of the first five or so replies to this thread than I did out of the entire other thread. That was pretty much just a slagfest between the encoders' developers.
-S

I think we matured a little.  The other thread has very good information about the detailed feature diffferences between the two encoders.

There is no point re-hashing that here.

And it was worth mentioning that for 90% of users, if you just want 25 or so inputs to play only MAME in an arcade cab, then any of these encoders will be a very good choice and the differences aren't really worth worrying about.

[papaschtroumpf]

I don't know about the iPAc but I have 2 main gripes about my KeyWiz, both of which are related to the fact that i do more than mame on my cabinet and most of the other apps are not compatible with MAME button mapping or each other, so I find myself wanting to reprogram the mapping before launching every new emulator (and again on exit to get a common mamewah mapping):

- The default keyWiz software show an animation on the screen while it's programming the keyWiz. That gives you something to look at while it does it, but I hate the way it looks, clashes with my skins on my cabinet. I must say that RandyT mostly came through on that one: he made me a special version of the programming software that minimizes the programming window to a few pixels in the corner of the screen. Not perfect but good enough.

- The keyWiz is reprogrammed using the keyboard LED lines, and that takes a long time under XP (over 30s, more if the impatient player hits a button while waiting for the programming to end, which is why by the way the program has an animated sequence while programming, it shows the user that something is in progress...). This one is a pain I could do without when I run PC games that each need the key reprogrammed before launching them, then go back to the initial programming after returning to the FE. Not a showstopper but definitely an annoyance.


I don't know much about the iPac but I heard programming is about 2s, which would have been much better for my particular case...

[AndyWarne]

That was pretty much just a slagfest between the encoders' developers.

-S

I know,  I still feel quite bad about that..

About shipping, this is something I am always aware of. In fact the UK is probably the best place in the world to ship from internationally, as the market for tracked shippers is highly competitive (much more so than in the USA) and I am always being approached by people trying to undercut our existing deals. I research this subject quite often and reckon we are as cheap or maybe cheaper than domestic USA vendors of general stuff such as PC parts, when using tracked air shipping such as UPS etc.
We are not as low as USPS of course. Our current shippers, DHL, have offered us a $6 deal to the USA using untracked shipping, which is delivered by USPS. I am in two minds on whether to take up their offer, and would welcome feedback. I have used USPS before and found them to be very reliable, but I think almost all customers would be willing to pay the extra few $ for a fast tracked air service. I am open to re-considering this based on feedback though.
Appointing distributors is always an option but as our shipping rates are based on number of packages sent, this would actually increase our shipping costs because the number of packages would go down. (or is that twisted logic...?)

[SirPoonga]

Trackball/spinner support - The built-in support is basically half of an Opti-Pac, but it won't work with all trackballs (like the Opti-Pac will).

So what is the mini-pac doing?  It isn't a minurature optipac?  Why wouldn't it be able to handle any tball?  Tballs all work on the same principles.

Also, the mini-pac is programmable, right?

Soldering isn't THAT bad  The main reason I want the minipac is the all in one unit will make it easy for my removable panel.  Again, each encoder has features the others don't.  Find the one that matches your needs.

[RandyT]

The keyWiz is reprogrammed using the keyboard LED lines, and that takes a long time under XP (over 30s, more if the impatient player hits a button while waiting for the programming to end,<snip>

Not sure I understand how this can be.  My tests on both Win2K and XP machines show pretty solid 15 second program times from program start to exit in auto mode.  This drops to around 6 seconds under 95/98/"ME".  Are you running on a very slow machine?

Also, the inputs are disabled during the actual programming phase.  The only way it can be interrupted is if buttons are pressed at the moment when the software is kicking the KeyWiz into it's programming mode.  Any encoder software that expects it's controller to give feedback via the keyboard channel would have the same issue.

The data sent to the KeyWiz is checksummed, ACK'd and uses standard Windows calls for reasons of ease of installation, compatibility and reliability.  These Windows calls are different between the two OS's, which is why there is a difference in programming time.

Are there faster programming methods?  Yes.  Are they more reliable?  No.  Does any of this matter if you set up your programs to use the default  or a common set of definitions?  Not in the slightest.

It's all about where you set your priorities and I apologize if I was unable to make the KeyWiz meet yours.

RandyT

[HaRuMaN]

Anyone know how much groovygamegear charges for shippingon a KeyWiz?  Shipping for the I-Pac seemed a little pricey at 12.00.

[GroovyTuesdaY]

Anyone know how much groovygamegear charges for shippingon a KeyWiz?  Shipping for the I-Pac seemed a little pricey at 12.00.

Andy addressed this toward the top....

[JayTea]

How about customer support & website info?  

That's one factor that keeps me coming back to Ultimarc and IPAC.  The Keywiz may be great, but if it ain't broke, I ain't gonna fix it  Andy's website is very detailed and complete, and his packages are always on time.  I can't speak for the keywiz guys because I've never felt the need to use a different encoder on any of the cabs I've built.

So Kudos to all the developers trying to make my gaming life fun, especially Ultimarc!

jT

[SirPoonga]

Anyone know how much groovygamegear charges for shippingon a KeyWiz?  Shipping for the I-Pac seemed a little pricey at 12.00.

Andy addressed this toward the top....

And the fact that it is coming overseas!

[GroovyTuesdaY]

 Even though 12 bucks seems like alot , in the bigger scheme of things it really isn't.   Most of the time UPS over here your looking at at least 10.00 - 15.00 and that all depends on what part of the country you live. I live in indiana and to ship something from here to california is INSANE anymore.

g~

[paigeoliver]

I am gonna stick in my standard plea here for one of the encoder makers to ship Bob Roberts a stock of these things so that he can sell them. Whoever did that would get all my business.

The reason being is that I like both encoders, but there is little else either vendor has that I want, but I always need stuff that Bob Roberts has.

[GroovyTuesdaY]

I am gonna stick in my standard plea here for one of the encoder makers to ship Bob Roberts a stock of these things so that he can sell them. Whoever did that would get all my business.

The reason being is that I like both encoders, but there is little else either vendor has that I want, but I always need stuff that Bob Roberts has.

Thats not a bad idea there!  Bob seems to be THE seller! I haven't ordered from him yet, but i can see where buying all your stuff from one place would be NICE.     I am about to order some HAPP COMPETITION sticks from him i think as he is the only person who sells them cheap. Happs sure isn't cheap and i know of no other vendor offering the comps.  Strange, because after reading OSCARs review of the happs sticks you would think the comps would be highly sought after.  
Does anyone know if BOB ROBERTS ever comes to this forum?

groovy~:D

[paigeoliver]

No, Bob really isn't active in the online arcade community anymore, other than answering emails and keeping his website. He used to be a frequent R.G.V.A.C. poster a few years back though.

[Tiger-Heli]

Trackball/spinner support - The built-in support is basically half of an Opti-Pac, but it won't work with all trackballs (like the Opti-Pac will).

So what is the mini-pac doing?  It isn't a minurature optipac?  Why wouldn't it be able to handle any tball?  Tballs all work on the same principles.

Also, the mini-pac is programmable, right?

Soldering isn't THAT bad  The main reason I want the minipac is the all in one unit will make it easy for my removable panel.  Again, each encoder has features the others don't.  Find the one that matches your needs.

Andy Warne would be better able to answer this, and I don't want to give out bad information, but I'll post what I think is correct and you should take it with a grain of salt.

Suzo/Wico sell both Active LO and Active HI t-balls.  The Opti-pac has a jumper to switch between the two.  The mini-pac does not and presumably will only work with one or the other (presumably whatever Happ is).  NOTE:  I think there would be a way to either add or disable some "pull-up" resistors to make the incompatible t-ball work, but I'm not sure.

AFIAK, the mini-pac is programmable with the current WinIpac software, but not with the new WinIpac IPD (Panel Designer) software.  I think maybe later minipac's will be IPD compatible, but you probably won't be able to upgrade a current mini-pac to use the IPD.

I wasn't trying to criticize the mini-pac, I just had seen other posts where you had recommended it, and thought it was a good time to list the Pro's and Con's.

[AndyWarne]

The trackball issue is this: the Mini-PAC has "floating" trackball inputs. This means that the Happ is OK because this trackball has driver chips on the optical boards which actively pull the signal high/low.
The Wico trackballs don't drive the signal high, so they would need pull-up resistors fitted. The Ultimarc trackball does have these pull-up resistors.
If anyone wants to connect a Wico trackball to a Mini-PAC drop me an email and I'll explain how to fit the resistors.
Tiger-Heli is correct on all other points.

[Tiger-Heli]

The trackball issue is this: the Mini-PAC has "floating" trackball inputs. This means that the Happ is OK because this trackball has driver chips on the optical boards which actively pull the signal high/low.
The Wico trackballs don't drive the signal high, so they would need pull-up resistors fitted. The Ultimarc trackball does have these pull-up resistors.
If anyone wants to connect a Wico trackball to a Mini-PAC drop me an email and I'll explain how to fit the resistors.
Tiger-Heli is correct on all other points.

Andy,

If I recall correctly, the Wico's (Suzo owns Wico now, I believe, and Wico is actually selling Suzo t-balls) can be ordered in either Active LO or Active HI flavors.

Just checked: http://www.wicothesource.com/new2/pages/page89.htm , the 2-1/4" can be ordered either way, the 3" doesn't specify.  

And I think you are saying the Active HI will work as is, but the Active LO will need resistors added to work with the Minipac.

Could you confirm?