pitfalls of using a lcd TV and not a monitor?

[aldub516]

so im closing in on finishing a project and its monitor time. I need a 32" monitor for this project. Ive always thought about lcd tv's as they are always cheap and on sale, and the one particular issue i know of is that they dont all (especially cheaper brand ones) have auto turn on with signal. I know there are work arounds such as running some sort of relay to the power  on the tv board. Im open to doing somethings if i have to, as long as they are sure fire workarounds. There is a 100$ difference between some lcds tv's and pc monitors that would suit my needs, so i basically, whats the consensus on using lcd tvs and not regular pc monitors? i will be going out hdmi so thats ok. How to check if they do have auto turn on? if not, solutions for this? Ive been checking input lag, obviously spec details like input lag, refresh rate etc. I just want to avoid major pitfalls, which again the most prominent to me, is the turning on of the tv with the pc.

[Laythe]

I'm using an LCD TV. 

It displays a few stupid messages (sideways, because mine is oriented in portrait) on power-on that I cannot suppress - resolution, source, a brief "NO SIGNAL", et cetera - so it's a little less than dignified for the few seconds when I'm starting the cabinet.  I figure some actual arcade machines were pretty undignified on start-up as well, so it doesn't bother me, but it might bother someone obsessive about polishing that aspect of their build.

(Me, I just turn the cabinet on well before showing it to anybody I'm *really* trying to impress.  Good enough.)

[aldub516]

I don't particularly mind any logos or startup screens and stuff like that. My biggest concern is the auto power on. Does your tv specifically have that feature? Are you turning it on separately or does it turn on when you power on the pc. Besides any problems that someone else may bring up that I'm not thinking of, power on with power or signal is my biggest concern and if a tv I find doesn't have the feature, how can I hack a way around that. Like I said I'm sure there has to be a way to jumper the power button on the tv motherboard to go on with a power Input. Just hoping someone had prior experience. Thanks for your input !

[Laythe]

The TV I'm using (cheap Samsung) will automatically turn on when powered up, *if* it was last powered off by cutting the power while it was on.  Works out well for me, as I'm effectively always switching it at the power strip.

If last turned off politely via the power button, it remains off regardless of being unplugged and plugged back in.

I presume it will vary by individual make and model, though.

[ark_ader]

Hmm lets look at what a 32 inch monitor goes for vs a 32 inch TV today:

LG 32MA68HY-P 32-Inch IPS Monitor with Display Port and HDMI Inputs = $199.99

Samsung UN32J5003 32-Inch 1080p LED TV = $249.99 

Guess the monitor wins.

It is for a cab, so we are not needing 4K but, maybe a VESA mount? 

[fettsvett201]

Hmm lets look at what a 32 inch monitor goes for vs a 32 inch TV today:

LG 32MA68HY-P 32-Inch IPS Monitor with Display Port and HDMI Inputs = $199.99

I am also looking at this monitor. One reviews said the image was "soft", but with MAME I imagine thats not a big deal.

[JDFan]

Hmm lets look at what a 32 inch monitor goes for vs a 32 inch TV today:

LG 32MA68HY-P 32-Inch IPS Monitor with Display Port and HDMI Inputs = $199.99

Samsung UN32J5003 32-Inch 1080p LED TV = $249.99 

Guess the monitor wins.

It is for a cab, so we are not needing 4K but, maybe a VESA mount? 

Actually Samsung UN32J5003 32-Inch 1080p LED TV = $197

So pricing really depends on where you look and what is on sale at the moment you are buying !

As far as the auto on on power you can always extend the power button to an arcade button placed on top of the cabinet and just push that button to turn the screen on if it doesn't have it or use the remote control.

[fettsvett201]

Nice tv. But the monitor in this thread has IPS while this one doesn't mention it. As someone who is looking for a 32in monitor, I was led to believe that IPS is somewhat important depending on the games you play. Is this true?

[JDFan]

Nice tv. But the monitor in this thread has IPS while this one doesn't mention it. As someone who is looking for a 32in monitor, I was led to believe that IPS is somewhat important depending on the games you play. Is this true?

The reason most like IPS panels is for the viewing angles they provide -- IPS panels keep their color and brightness when looking at the panel from the sides/bottom much better than some non IPS panels - but depending on the build a non IPS panel may be fine but the better viewing angle can make a difference esp. in cocktail tables or vertical builds where you are looking at the monitor from an angle it was not really designed to be placed in. So it's not really depending on the games you play but more the build itself and how the monitor will be viewed (ie. in a 4 player build it can make a difference when player 3 and 4 are off to the side if their color/brightness are off since they are to the side of the monitor.)

[fettsvett201]

Ah, ok. Would this be the same principle if I end up deciding to do a rotating monitor (horizontal to vertical)? An IPS panel should display everything properly, but a TV may not as the TV is not built to be viewed at that angle. Is that right?

[paigeoliver]

Ah, ok. Would this be the same principle if I end up deciding to do a rotating monitor (horizontal to vertical)? An IPS panel should display everything properly, but a TV may not as the TV is not built to be viewed at that angle. Is that right?

Rotation of the monitor simply isn't a factor that you need to worry about, it will perform exactly the same rotated.

Also, rotating monitors is really a CRT thing. If you are going LCD then just get a larger one and mount it vertically.

[fettsvett201]

Also, rotating monitors is really a CRT thing. If you are going LCD then just get a larger one and mount it vertically.
[/quote]

That's something I haven't thought of. While spinning the monitor is neat, this is much simpler. I imagine if I go this way, part of the monitor is not viewed (like a bottom portion would be below the viewing area). What would be suitable size for something like this. Somewhere in the 40's?

Also, sorry to hijack this thread. Ill be done in a minute.

[yotsuya]

I thought the point to going with a 32" monitor was so that you DIDN'T have to rotate the screen. At least, that's what the defenders of practice claim.

[aldub516]

thanks for the input. I actually did see that 200$ ips monitor and liked it alot. As for price, ive been able to find 32" 1080 screens for 99 bucks by westinghouse and such. Tested them with game graphics and i didnt mind it. im not particularly needing to cheap out, i was just curious as to what other drawbacks there were.. I may try and grab that ips screen. thanks!

[aldub516]

So my updated result is this. Found a 32" Sanyo 720p lcd for 140 at Walmart. It stays on when I shut off my pc, and after killing my power strip and re powering it, the tv boots up by itself. All good to go!
 For what  its worth, I know the tv is not ideal by any means. This is a random mame machine i decided to build for our cannabis farm for people to play when they come by. The market for mame machines is strong with the wealthy stoner indeed lol. I tested hyperspin and a ton of games and emulators, it all looks great and I am satisfied with my purchase for this purpose. Screen looks great, even looking at it almost completely parallel from the side, the image looks great.  It has a vga Input which looks a lot better than the hdmi with the pc for whatever reason. Overall, 100% happy with this purchase and it does exactly what i needed it to do. the 60 bucks i saved can go towards joys and buttons and im all good.

For future people who find this.. i looked a lot into hdmi-cec  which is a tv feature that allows hdmi devices to communicate with the tv- ie powering it on or off. This tv ended up having this, but I ended up lucky with this tv having vga and powering on automatically on its own. Thank you to all those who chimed in. Im gonna eye that 32" ips for $200 for my next machine i care more about

[keilmillerjr]

I don't know if the the current shaders are going to look like they should on a 720p display. That's literally only 3 times the vertical resolution of 320x240.

[BadMouth]

I don't know if the the current shaders are going to look like they should on a 720p display. That's literally only 3 times the vertical resolution of 320x240.

The two cheap 720p TVs I have display say they do 1324x768 from the VGA port.
That with a scanline generator might do alright if OP wants scanlines and isn't worried about widescreen games.

Or are they just accepting 1324x768 input and scaling it down to the 720 that the panel is capable of?

[lisowskikevin]

I like my Sony wega 27 inches personally.

I never really liked the look of arcade games on an LCD. Personal choice I guess.

[keilmillerjr]

I like my Sony wega 27 inches personally.

I never really liked the look of arcade games on an LCD. Personal choice I guess.

Yes! :cheers

I sold my 40 something inch toshiba lcd and got a 27" Trinitron for our family tv. Couldn't be happier.

[aldub516]

I don't know if the the current shaders are going to look like they should on a 720p display. That's literally only 3 times the vertical resolution of 320x240.

The two cheap 720p TVs I have display say they do 1324x768 from the VGA port.
That with a scanline generator might do alright if OP wants scanlines and isn't worried about widescreen games.

Or are they just accepting 1324x768 input and scaling it down to the 720 that the panel is capable of?

hey. Im running mame 147 still, and have my system already set up, so current shaders or future updatesarent an issue for me. I dont particularly care about scanlines or the widescreen. i use custom bezels so it looks nice. As for your last statement, i cant properly respond because i dont fully understand resolutions and such or what you really mean.. my simplest answer is.. I found a decent priced tv that looked nice at the store and had the features i needed. i plugged the lcd in, found a resolution that fills the screen and looks sharp. fired up hyperspin and was fully content with everything i saw. Like i said, this is a nice throw together for the farm office.. No concern of anyone here noticing scanlines, screen tears, etc. My next personal machine i of course will invest properly. But for my results, im very happy with the 32" 720 sanyo for 140. no sales tax in oregon is also always sweet lol.

[yotsuya]

Those dudes puffing away at mota while playing games only care about Galaga, bro.

[RandyT]

I sold my 40 something inch toshiba lcd and got a 27" Trinitron for our family tv. Couldn't be happier.

Still can't bring myself to watch TV on an LCD.  All plasma screens here.  Too bad they don't make plasma screens small enough for arcade machines.

[aldub516]

Those dudes puffing away at mota while playing games only care about Galaga, bro.

haha that actually made me laugh a bit... infact.. science has shown that the mota heads prefer the simpsons.. and by science i mean casual observation of everyone saying  OH MAN DO YOU HAVE THE SIMPSONS!

[keilmillerjr]

I sold my 40 something inch toshiba lcd and got a 27" Trinitron for our family tv. Couldn't be happier.

Still can't bring myself to watch TV on an LCD.  All plasma screens here.  Too bad they don't make plasma screens small enough for arcade machines.

Plasma has some awesome blacks!

I like my crt because the tv is in a corner and I can see it from both couches indirectly. I can even see it clear as day from my kitchen while cooking. With my lcd, there was like 1 seat where you could see it perfectly. Everywhere else, colors start fading dark. So annoying. And I paid good money for that tv. ---smurfing--- crt was free.

[aldub516]

ideally of course crts are always cool for arcade cabs.. But i think ive seen my glory days of builds with crts. I wish the childhood fan of arcades in me would demand that old quality and look, i just dont care enough. Too many conveniences with the lcd, and not enough reasons for me personally to go with crt. I was never good at maintenance on tvs, and dont really want to bother learning. For me personally, theres no reason to travel back in time.. But i fully admire the classic crt.

[yotsuya]

ideally of course crts are always cool for arcade cabs.. But i think ive seen my glory days of builds with crts. I wish the childhood fan of arcades in me would demand that old quality and look, i just dont care enough. Too many conveniences with the lcd, and not enough reasons for me personally to go with crt. I was never good at maintenance on tvs, and dont really want to bother learning. For me personally, theres no reason to travel back in time.. But i fully admire the classic crt.

Interesting interesting point. My two Mame cabs are both running LCDs, but I've got really good quality LCDs in them and neither of them are widescreen.. But anything that's dedicated, or any true Restorations, and I wouldn't think about anything other than a CRT.

[Laythe]

I agree with Yotsuya that the quality of the LCD panel makes a difference.

Unrelated to the original poster's setup... I think LCD displays started out pretty bad in the late 90s, but some of them have come quite a way since then.  Part of me wants to show the "LCDs look awful" crowd an integer-scaled and scanlined LCD image on a good panel and see what they think of it, because I think they may have formed their impressions from something like a 60-in-1 without scanlines, bilinear upscaling smeary gradient-edged solid squares onto a bad panel - and heck, I'd agree that that looks awful.

I feel like the upper end of LCD + scanline setups has progressed from "miserable" to "pretty good", and I'm honestly curious if the CRT purists are arguing from a position of "yes, but pretty good isn't perfect", or if they are arguing from a position of "why are people settling for miserable?".

[Mike A]

For me it is also about the LCD lag. It impacts game play.

[aldub516]

I agree, any restoration or original game would absolutely call for a crt. Even though ive never restored a machine yet, i know better than to butcher a diamond in the rough. any future builds or games though are fully lcd. I also agree with the quality of lcds. believe me, i wish i had money / this project was important enough to throw a beautiful perfect lcd. But i have to give small credit to these nifty tvs now a days.. 140 bucks and like i said, im fully content. As for input lag, MOST tvs that i research or come across have acceptable lag time. It absolutely is a huge factor, but from what ive seen personally, ive never ran into half decent lcd that had near 12ms or anything noticeable. One day i need to have my buddy show me how to do a full tune up on a monitor for fun. It seems easy. I was mind blown at the video of that dude who straight up hosed down his monitor completely to clean it.. ill probably just stick to a damp cloth and an lcd lol. Its funny searching for cab building knowledge on google, and coming across byoac posts from 2008, and revisiting the struggles of technology

[Mike A]

Cheap LCDs usually have input lag much greater than 12ms. More in the 30+ millisecond range. I have two friends that have bartops with lcds. We all score consistently better on my CRT machine.

[JDFan]

Cheap LCDs usually have input lag much greater than 12ms. More in the 30+ millisecond range. I have two friends that have bartops with lcds. We all score consistently better on my CRT machine.

Same controls or better quality ones on your CRT build as well ??

[Mike A]

Same ones. I built them free standing 4 way sticks that plug into their jamma harness. They didn't believe me about the quality of their joysticks at first. They are younger and didn't grow up playing on dedicated machines. After playing mine they broke free of the dark side. The sticks helped a lot, but there is still an edge to be gained with the CRT. If you get the lag under 30ms it is probably no longer noticeable. Good LCDs can achieve those numbers. Unless things have changed, which is entirely possible, the cheap ones still lag pretty badly.

[lettuce]

A monitor will have better response times than that of TV in the $200 to $350 price range so that is an important factor to think about, especially for arcade game when you want quick reaction times.

Also if your at all interested in getting CRT look via shaders the higher the screen resolution you can get ,the better the shader effect will look

[Mike A]

When you stray from the LCD native resolution more lag creeps in.

[aldub516]

i should strongly correct myself.. I said that most tvs now adays have good input lag. I didnt consider that ive never looked at the lower end of tvs for projects, and just that in my experience, even the 2-300 range lcds had good input lag.. so i take back that unthought comment lol.

im sure this sanyo isnt fireblazing input lag, but i dont seem to notice. Out of curiosity, are there any games that are considered good benchmarks to check input lag? id assume fighters with quick combos or something.. but any games that are highly affected by input lag that one would especially notice to try?

[Mike A]

When you play a game like Pacman or Ms Pacman and you keep just missing the corners. Unless the input lag is really bad you don't really consciously notice it. You will just have more good games where you feel in the groove with a CRT. There are videos online where people demonstrate input lag side by side. Playing with bad input lag is like trying to play 4 way games with an 8 way stick.

[aldub516]

im wondering, is input lag affected by input type? Or is it the same across the board. Would the vga port produce a better lag time than hdmi? is the posted lag times on tvs their absolute lag time, or is that a maximum or something.. just broadening my knowledge here.

[Mike A]

I am out of my depth when you start getting into specifics. Most of what I know is from playing games on CRTs, LCDs and my projector. There is a lot of information out there if you want to plow through it. There is even a website for gamers that breaks down the lag time of specific TVs and monitors.

[Jakobud]

LG 32MA68HY-P 32-Inch IPS Monitor with Display Port and HDMI Inputs = $199.99

Holy crap when did monitors get so cheap? 32" IPS for $200???