Lag question for Aimtrak owners

[P.H.U.]

I have a Lethal Enforcers cab. The CRT is burnt to death and needs a cap kit. But otherwise, the cab is in fairly good shape. It is the only cab that I have where the screen surface is positioned perpendicular to the floor. It isn't mirrored, but that is ok with me. I only have one gun for it, and it doesn't work. Replacing it isn't a problem. But then again, I don't want to be shoe-horned into playing just one game. Seems most of the light gun games I like playing work perfectly in MAME. That is great news.

The problem is that the solutions for playing light gun games all have some sort of inherent issue. The Act Labs gun no longer is produced. And even with that, it only supports 1-player. I am looking at the solutions built around Andy's Aimtrak but for some reason, they all seem so laggy to me. Can any of your Aimtrak owners comment on the lagginess of this product in MAME? I really like playing Police Trainer, Lethal Enforcers, Area 51, Maximum Force, Site 4. Thanks!

EDIT:  To clarify any below responses, let me state that I am a CRT guy. Thanks!

[BadMouth]

Do you have multimouse enabled?  (If not, any windows mouse settings will affect the cursor)

Have you tried adjusting the sensitivity in MAME under analog controls?

EDIT: also the act labs guns work fine with 2 players.  I owned a pair of the s-video rayguns for years before ridding my house of CRTs.

[P.H.U.]

I don't own any guns yet. Just doing research for the best possible solution for me.

[BadMouth]

I don't own any guns yet. Just doing research for the best possible solution for me.

So how do you know they seem laggy?

I don't like any IR guns so far because they aren't accurate like the old CRT guns.
They are more like a Wii controller and you have to use the on-screen crosshairs instead of the gun sights.
That ruins it for me.  If you grew up playing a wii, then maybe you're good with it.

That said, the Aim-Trak is as good as it gets for IR guns right now.
It's just not good enough for me. 

If you plan to stick with the original CRT monitor, search the forum for USB2Gun.
It's the Global VR USB board used in America's Army cabs.

[BadMouth]

That said, the Aim-Trak is as good as it gets for IR guns right now.
It's just not good enough for me. 

...well until TwistedSymphony irons out using Sega arcade hardware.  I think he's pretty much got it sorted.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,149019.0.html
Unless you get a crazy deal on a cab that includes it though, it will cost you.

[P.H.U.]

So how do you know they seem laggy?

All the Youtube vids I see clearly show lag.

[burn_654]

I actually had a pretty good experience with 3rd party guncon 2's using Wingun under XP 32 bit (64 bit is no go). But they can't be used for rawinput scenarios (like the model2 emulator with troubleshooter 2). I say 3rd party guns because the official namco guncon2 shows a 'rolling x' problem that can *sort of* be solved with wingun, but not entirely. If you aim down off the screen and come back up from the bottom, the coordinates could be wrong for a shot.

I'm personally working on a pretty complicated project to use the Topgun drivers with a guncon2 with a software flash - the topgun drivers actually pick up guncon2's just fine and actually track very well on bright screens. Calibration is a little more difficult but not absurdly so - just some manual number entry to get things tracking evenly across the screen.

I'm keen on working in this path because the topgun drivers are available for 64 bit windows and windows 7 with a signature override. The trick is: I have to incorporate a screen flash and a delayed trigger to be during the screen flash so that dark areas can be hit. I'm testing a 555 delay circuit to *very slightly* delay the shot logic to be during that flash screen. The flash screen is currently started by the same trigger but wired into an ipac button input that gets detected by my software. I'm getting some positive results in this direction but still some bugs to work out. I'll definitely publish my circuit and software once I can get things to an acceptable level.

Either of these options means professing your love to the crt gods. While the aimtrack has some good qualities it wasn't going to work for this cab - minimum distance was killing it. Otherwise I like the hardware and found it not quite as accurate as a crt gun but still much better than I had expected once properly calibrated - I would still recommend it for ease of setup and didn't find it laggy really.

[P.H.U.]

Either of these options means professing your love to the crt gods.

Ugggh, check my signature. It goes without question that I am a CRT guy.

[P.H.U.]

Looks more and more like I will just get an interim solution until the USB2gun boards become available. Been reading on the GunCon work around. Probably the cheapest solution. Problem is Smog's website is down so I have to do more research. USB2gun seems to be a fantastic solution!

Wonder why no one has thought of making a board to interface the Happ guns with MAME through USB?

[burn_654]

I know that someone managed to get an arcade Namco recoil gun working with the ps2 guncon innards according to this video:


Basically, he wired up the 3- pin sensor and trigger buttons to the inputs on the guncon pcb and had it working well with a ps2.
Going off of that, you could probably use that setup working with a pc (though better with 3rd party innards) with Wingun, Guncon2PC or my eventual Topgun driver workaround.

In truth my end project I've been working on (while crazy as all hell, it's actually having moments of sweet success!) is going as follows:

1. A gun phototransistor/sensor cut out (while still mounted on part of the pcb) from one cheap-o guncon2 clone. I tried desoldering two of these things so far and forget it, they are SUPER heat sensistive. I opted to just cut a piece of a the pcb with the sensor on it.
2. Taking that sensor and mounting it in the barrel of this gun which is *basically* a knock-off of the namco arcade guns in design and solenoid...http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~gogo/ps2_io/realarcade-superjolt.htm
3. Running trigger wire and the 3-pin sensor wire over an old cut up lpt cable into...
4. A madcatz ps2 gun (like this one http://www.lukiegames.com/PS2-MadCatz-8288-Light-Blaster_p_22024.html) taken out of the plastic and put into a project box, purely used as an 'interface' under the hood. I desoldered the existing sensor on the gun and wired in my previous 'sensor on a pcb' over the lpt cord. I can actually recommend the madcatz gun for superior tracking ability as a base, but the built in trigger feels pretty terrible.
5. A 555 and mosfet circuit living inside the gun, firing the recoil solenoid.
6. Crazy as it sounds, this mostly all works so far. Still working on the flash delay circuit for the topgun driver though.

How many pins does a happ sensor use? If it's at all similar to the namco arcade sensors (using a ~5V pin, ground pin, and what I assume is a sense/data pin) using a Guncon's board as an interface for the sensor could actually work. Maybe even an actlabs gun pcb could be a host for the sensor but I'm not courageous enough to hack those things being so rare and all.

As far as drivers go: out of the box I definitely had the most luck with Wingun as opposed to Smog's Guncon2PC because I couldn't get the screen flashing in smog's driver to work reliably, under 32bit XP Wingun was very good and allowed reliable flashing for games that needed it like the PC House of the Dead games. I use a jpac and soldered a female rca connection on the composite sync output line to my my monitor and plugged the guncon into that, and I was in business.

[P.H.U.]

How many pins does a happ sensor use? If it's at all similar to the namco arcade sensors (using a ~5V pin, ground pin, and what I assume is a sense/data pin) using a Guncon's board as an interface for the sensor could actually work. Maybe even an actlabs gun pcb could be a host for the sensor but I'm not courageous enough to hack those things being so rare and all.

Well, I have a Happ gun with my Lethal Enforcers cab. Shall I post pics of the board and connection? No point hacking an Acts Lab if you have one; those work as designed. They could use better housings is all. I think I am going to pick up a Guncon. Which ones work best for MAME/emulation:  1, 2, or 3?

[P.H.U.]

That said, the Aim-Trak is as good as it gets for IR guns right now.
It's just not good enough for me. 

...well until TwistedSymphony irons out using Sega arcade hardware.  I think he's pretty much got it sorted.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,149019.0.html
Unless you get a crazy deal on a cab that includes it though, it will cost you.

I can get a HoTD 2 cab right now. Does that have the hardware I need?

[BadMouth]

...well until TwistedSymphony irons out using Sega arcade hardware.  I think he's pretty much got it sorted.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,149019.0.html
Unless you get a crazy deal on a cab that includes it though, it will cost you.

I can get a HoTD 2 cab right now. Does that have the hardware I need?

The answer is in that link right there.

[P.H.U.]

Blah, it is still IR. Even though I can get HoTD2 right now for $250. I'll have to think about this.

EDIT:  Nevermind, it is HoTD1

[Toasty833]

I tried out both the Aimtrak and Topgun systems on LCDs, they weren't at all what I was looking for. As you said, very laggy, and basically unusable without an on-screen cursor.

For the mid-range, It's fairly simple to get a Guncon 2 clone working. All you need is a graphics card with S-video out, a monitor that can accept it, then you just wire an RCA jack in to get a composite feed. The issues are rolling X if you use the official guns, a maximum resolution of 480i, and you're restricted to graphics cards with S-video out, which is absent from anything recent so the chances of playing some more recent games are pretty slim.

For the top end, currently, the only option is the ActLabs guns, and even they have issues. The raygun is frankly awful to hold and the trigger is painful to use for prolonged periods of time. The drivers are simplistic and what could be a one-stop solution is hampered by the single frame tracking. It'd be great to have something like the PS2 home port of Crisis Zone, where the whole screen is just lightened a bit for fairly accurate prolonged tracking. That said, the DVI standards and legacy support means you can be confident in a solution that works great for single shot games for probably years to come, I had no issues on Windows 7 and I imagine the drivers will still work for 10 and beyond.

[P.H.U.]

Yeah, looks like I am about 5 years late to the party. I am pretty sure the IR solutions won't work for me. I would be too bothered by the potential lag and inaccuracy. I have played enough Wii games with the kids to know the difference. All of the arcade gun games are fast twitch shooters. I am a big fan of Police Trainer. It would bug me to death.

To use the Act Labs solution, first I have to source one. Then I have to dump the Radeon HD4350 cards I have, and go for the older X and R based ATI cards. The HD4350's don't have S-video, or I have never seen one that has S-Video. I have 3 HD4390's at home. I believe they have S-video, but I am not sure. Plus I would have to get a 500W PSU in my machine just to run that card. Also, not sure if S-video works for me. I have a CRT based cab outputting 15khz CGA resolution using Calamity's drivers. I think all the research that was done then adapting the GunCon's was long before graphics card manufactuers abandoned S-video for HDMI output.

I would love to find Smog's schematic for the GunCon. I like to tinker and would want to take a stab at his schematic. If someone has that, please post it. As for the USB2gun, if that ever becomes available, i will gladly pay the asking price. Seems like the best solution out there.

We definitely need a Arcade Lightgun sub-forum.

[P.H.U.]

Ask and you shall receive!

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=37872.80

On a side note, there is one upset eBay'er tonight

[burn_654]

For using a guncon with a 15khz monitor I didn't have to build a circuit really with the jpac video amp - I went with a jpac and crt_emudriver for my video card. From there I basically made an rca splitter to the sync line coming out of the jpac, plugged the yellow composite video plug from the guncon into that and it worked just fine. Simolarly a video card with composite or s-video output to a consumer tv should work fine. I think the only real reason to bother with a sync separator circuit is if you want to try getting it going with a PC vga crt (no idea on that one...could be possible?) or if you want to skip something like a jpac. I recommend the jpac as it amplifies the computer output to get the colors brighter/nicer, filters out bad resolutions from going to the monitor and functions as a control interface, just something to consider.

[P.H.U.]

For using a guncon with a 15khz monitor I didn't have to build a circuit really with the jpac video amp - I went with a jpac and crt_emudriver for my video card. From there I basically made an rca splitter to the sync line coming out of the jpac, plugged the yellow composite video plug from the guncon into that and it worked just fine. Simolarly a video card with composite or s-video output to a consumer tv should work fine. I think the only real reason to bother with a sync separator circuit is if you want to try getting it going with a PC vga crt (no idea on that one...could be possible?) or if you want to skip something like a jpac. I recommend the jpac as it amplifies the computer output to get the colors brighter/nicer, filters out bad resolutions from going to the monitor and functions as a control interface, just something to consider.

Right you are. I read a ton on the subject last night. I don't need the Smog's board at all since I have 15khz output from my card going into a 15khz monitor. Some small changes due to modern advances need to be made, but I think the Guncon2 will work for me almost perfectly. First things first, I have to pick up one of these composite female jacks. There is a Fry's nearby, so I'll just stop by and see if I can grab one.

Question:  everything that I have read thus far says I only need to connect sync. I don't have to connect ground as well?

Also, I have one of these HD15 breakout boards. Should be easy to harvest sync and ground (if I need it) off this board; no need for Y-splitters. I have a J-Pac, but I find it actually hampers my display as mentioned here. I will probably go without. Given that, I have to make some changes to my system and be mindful of a few things:

• I have to go with WinXP 32-bit as the WinGun drivers don't work on a 64-bit OS.
• I must use 3rd party Guncon's as the 1st party ones have a rolling X issue. Picked up two of these
  

Anything else I am missing?

[burn_654]

Sounds like you've got it!

I did end up connecting ground to the video ground line so yeah getting that off of the breakout board should be fine.

I ocassionally (depending on the gun) had an issue in all of the driver projects in one little way - for instance in Wingun the driver would install just fine but the Wingun program window didn't recognize my guns. What I found out is some of the third party guns really like having two guns plugged in (both the usb and yellow composite plugs, on my gun the yellow plugs could be chained together) before either one of them showed up in the program. That was at least my experience, I'd recommend plugging both in (and installing the driver for both) if you encounter something like that.

The Wingun calibration works ok but I had the best results by doing their calibration with the targets and then fine tuning the four top, bottom, left right numbers by hand. Basically if one of the edges can't pick up your gun or the mouse moves too quickly to that side the value will need tweaked. The wingun readme has some info on that. This is best figured out with a white screen like notepad opened and the gun you're calibrating set as 'primary gun' so you can see check how smoothly the mouse cursor is moving on the screen.

Hope things work out for you! 

[P.H.U.]

Thanks burn. I did win an auction last night for a used Act Labs gun too. But that is just one gun. I need to either dual wield or play with the kiddies. I can always dump the Act Labs back on eBay if the 3rd party Guncon's work better.

So if all goes well, I will have this interfaced to HyperSpin. I will use the ghutch92's HyperSpin Startup Script to launch Wingun, then from there the guns should work. Off to Fry's Electronics to see if they have a RCA female connector jack. If not, I am going to eBay. These cabinet projects may never end, but I am having fun!

[BadMouth]

The raygun is frankly awful to hold and the trigger is painful to use for prolonged periods of time.

I had the opposite reaction.  I found the rayguns extremely comfortable, albeit goofy looking.
The small silver pistol they had was horrible for comfort; sharp edges where your hand wrapped around it and a crazy long trigger with a weird curve to it.
Most people ended up chopping half the trigger off and sanding it down.
I never tried the full size 45 they made.

For anyone following this, make sure you get USB guns and steer clear of the original Gameport interface "GS" set of rayguns.
As far as I know, nobody has gotten them working on XP or newer versions of windows.