Debating starting over with XP instead of Windows 7

[Rogles]

I'm getting back into finishing my bar-top arcade cabinet after a 1 year hiatus. I got CRT_Emudriver working with my Radeon card so I'm able to play games on my CGA monitor. However, right now I'm trying to decide if I should go with Windows 7 (which is what my build has right now) or if I should install Windows XP and start over. The main concern is the 1024x768@60hz  boot screen for Windows 7 and the possible lower performance of mame on Windows XP. Which do you think I should I go with? Are there any Windows 7 boot screen workarounds these days that make it better than going with Windows XP?

Also, my monitor is one of those 'newer' 13" crts - a Wells Gardner WGE1372 13K7203. I've accidentally had it display a 60hz signal a couple of times when I was trying to get CRT_Emudriver to work but while the screen was messed up, I didn't get any clicking or scary noises/flashing from the monitor. Could this monitor be immune to 60hz damage? Or are all CGA CRT monitors susceptible?

[paigeoliver]

The idea that you can damage a monitor by feeding it the wrong signal is a myth that got started here a long time ago before the mame community had any monitor tech genius types in it. The monitor just won't be able to sync to the signal.

[BadMouth]

Unrelated to your monitor issues, but the deciding factor in my opinion is whether you will run anything that requires DirectX10 or 11.  (XP doesn't support them)
Demul, a few other emulators, and modern games would benefit from it. 

If you're only going to run MAME and it isn't going to connect to the internet, I don't see any reason to bother using anything other than XP.

[keilmillerjr]

Atom15 should take care of the boot screen, no?

I see no reason to use an os that is over a decade old with dropped support. 15khz can be had with Windows 7.

[P.H.U.]

Atom15 should take care of the boot screen, no?

I see no reason to use an os that is over a decade old with dropped support. 15khz can be had with Windows 7.

Windows 7 boot screen, so it is not BIOS video output that atom15 would take care of. In either case, as paigeoliver said it wouldn't damage the monitor. I have connected JAMMA edge connectors into un-keyed harnesses backwards, then flipped them and there was no damage to the monitors, fed WUXGA resolution to an arcade monitor, committed every error possible with about 5 different monitors, and my monitors have been fine, so I concur. It just looks scary.

I'd go with XP-64bit if you have a CPU that can handle it over Windows 7. If we are talking just MAME, and you are not using the PC for any other purpose, there is some advantage in that XP supports magic resolutions.

This is where I got XP 64-bit. I don't need it to be secure, so don't care that it came off the net:  http://getintopc.com/softwares/operating-systems/windows-xp-64-bit-iso-free-download/

[Alaska]

I just reverted to XP from Windows 7 after running into snags with direct draw and MAME running in 7. I have an arcadeVGA card and run HyperSpin on an old WG/Zenith k7000a. I'm happy I made the switch to XP. The resolutions look great and I haven't run into any issues as of yet.

Hardest part is finding I.E. 8 and service pack 3 to get everything updated.  PM if you need the files. They're free online but I have a jump drive with them handy that will save you some time.

You'll also need to install DX9 and the runtime update, .net framework 4, and C++ I believe. Again all free online at Microsoft.com

[yotsuya]

I'm running Janky Kong on XP for the same reasons.

[Rogles]

Thanks for the input guys. So the monitor signal thing is a non-issue. I wasn't expecting so much XP support though. I'm going with a vertical orientation and all the vertical games I like seem to play well on my Windows 7 setup (mostly 1985 and earlier games).

Can anyone explain what the advantage of magic resolution? I remember coming across it when I was getting CRT Emudriver working, but I can't remember exactly. Searches give hints, but I'm not finding anything concrete. Does it just look a little sharper on the CGA CRT? Maybe I'll give it a shot and install XP on another drive and go back and forth and compare.

[P.H.U.]

Well, the tide of support for XP swells from us all being smart but cheap ---daisies---. This can be an expensive time consuming hobby. You need some skill and knowledge along with other expenses such as tools to apply the trade. The reality is for playing most of MAME's library, you don't need a modern PC. We are smart enough to know it is overkill and a waste if the only purpose of that machine is to be stuffed into a cab and hacked to display graphics from greater than 30 years ago. So we need no more than older hardware that can be had for the cost of a big lunch, or even donated free from co-workers, friends, family, or work even. XP fits the bill perfectly. Once you start adding in general purpose use for that PC-in-a-cab, well then you should definitely consider 7.

As for magic resolutions, the advantage is subtle, but results in a sharper more accurate image. And many of the old games run at such odd resolutions. Here is a good explanation of the resulting benefit:  http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=146793.0

As for the problem magic resolutions solved, here it is right from Calamity's mouth (CTRL+F "magic):  http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=46

[BadMouth]

There's also the reason we aren't supposed to talk about.
It doesn't phone home so you can use the same key on every machine you build.
It might as well be a free OS when used for this purpose.

I'm not wasting a good windows 7 key on an outdated PC to play 30 year old games on.

My cab uses Vista because I had a copy and needed DirectX11 support.    
I probably will be updating that to Windows 7 soon, but that machine is connected to the internet, kept updated, and runs Steam games.

[P.H.U.]

There's also the reason we aren't supposed to talk about.
It doesn't phone home so you can use the same key on every machine you build.
It might as well be a free OS when used for this purpose.

I'm not wasting a good windows 7 key on an outdated PC to play 30 year old games on.

My cab uses Vista because I had a copy and needed DirectX11 support.    
I probably will be updating that to Windows 7 soon, but that machine is connected to the internet, kept updated, and runs Steam games.

See what I mean by "cheap" 

[Calamity]

Windows 7 boot screen, so it is not BIOS video output that atom15 would take care of.

ATOM-15 does care of this. Windows boot screens still use VESA modes, the ones ATOM-15 patches. Because ATOM-15 disables 1024x768, Windows 7 will realize and use 640x480 (15 kHz) instead, switching to the old Vista boot screen automatically.

Using Windows XP today for a new build is a mistake if you want my opinion.

[P.H.U.]

Is it now? Please explain. Also, my builds are on older hardware. So maybe "new" is a relative term. Something in CRT Emu 2.0 we don't know about?

[AndyWarne]

The idea that you can damage a monitor by feeding it the wrong signal is a myth that got started here a long time ago before the mame community had any monitor tech genius types in it. The monitor just won't be able to sync to the signal.

Its not a myth, but depends on the design of the monitor. Older types had very basic horizontal timebase designs which attempt to run at the frequency supplied. I have had 2 monitors blow horizontal output transistors in the past owing to this problem.
One was a 14 inch Japanese monitor in a table top and the other was a K4600.

If the MAME devs implement native unstretched resolutions in D3D then there will be no drawbacks from Windows 7. At present there is a drawback as DirectDraw does not work properly in Windows 7, it cant switch between interlaced and non-interlaced resolutions.

[P.H.U.]

Andy and Calamity on the same thread, !

[Rogles]

Well it looks like I already hit snag with XP. I had bought a new SSD drive that I was planning on using in my cab to save space. A regular HD will still fit in my design, but it's going to be really tight as well as  giving off more heat I assume. I really really wanted to use SSD.

Anyway I tried installing XP on it and I got the 0000007B error.  From my searches, it looks like I need to toggle the AHCI/IDE setting in the BIOS. Unfortunately, there is no option on my machine (Dell Zino 400 HD) and the BIOS appears to be up to date. Have any of you had to deal with something like this? Is this a motherboard issue with the SSD? Will installing Windows 7 on the SSD have the same issue?

EDIT: Nevermind. I got it to install through trial and error.

[haynor666]

You can use Fernando AHCI universal driver with XP. Works ok with Intel serie 8/C220 at least.

General recommendation just like Calamity mentioned - use 7 x64 because mame is faster than XP x32 even faster with comparison with XP x64 (which has it's own problems). I personally stick with XP last time due problems with my frontend. All other problems has been resolved including even Taito Type X games. Also please remember that future mame versions might not work on XP x32 or even XP x64.

With CRT tools 2.0 and latest Calamity driver installation is very easy and actually more comfortable than on XP ie. You don't have to reboot system every time you install new modelines. Usage of multimonitor setups is also greatly improved under windows 7.

As for SSD - I don't recommend it use under XP. XP does not support TRIM command so it will not work correctly or to be specific efficiently under XP. Over time it will probably gets slow. Maybe in cab we don't save too much files personally but system will writes and reads a lot.

As for damage on CRT monitors - I had one 27'' monitor long time ago but I never connected anything other than PCBs. Right now I have couple of TVs and all function even if output 31 kHz modes. I guess they have some kind of protection. Situation is slightly worse when I exceed certain parameters in 15kHz modes. Then TVs outputs high pitch and/or picture is distorted. Such situation never had kill any of my TVs and I never found any picture problems after such incidents.

[Rogles]

You can use Fernando AHCI universal driver with XP. Works ok with Intel serie 8/C220 at least.

General recommendation just like Calamity mentioned - use 7 x64 because mame is faster than XP x32 even faster with comparison with XP x64 (which has it's own problems). I personally stick with XP last time due problems with my frontend. All other problems has been resolved including even Taito Type X games. Also please remember that future mame versions might not work on XP x32 or even XP x64.

With CRT tools 2.0 and latest Calamity driver installation is very easy and actually more comfortable than on XP ie. You don't have to reboot system every time you install new modelines. Usage of multimonitor setups is also greatly improved under windows 7.

As for SSD - I don't recommend it use under XP. XP does not support TRIM command so it will not work correctly or to be specific efficiently under XP. Over time it will probably gets slow. Maybe in cab we don't save too much files personally but system will writes and reads a lot.

As for damage on CRT monitors - I had one 27'' monitor long time ago but I never connected anything other than PCBs. Right now I have couple of TVs and all function even if output 31 kHz modes. I guess they have some kind of protection. Situation is slightly worse when I exceed certain parameters in 15kHz modes. Then TVs outputs high pitch and/or picture is distorted. Such situation never had kill any of my TVs and I never found any picture problems after such incidents.

Thanks, I'll take that into consideration. What about hiding Windows 7? That was another reason I was leaning towards XP. From what I've heard, completely hiding 7 sounds overwhelmingly complicated.

[Rogles]

Looks like I'll reformat and put Windows 7 on the drive. Vmmaker is not liking my video driver ("no compatible video driver found") and I restarted several times. I guess it might be an XP 64 video driver compatibility issue as I didn't have this problem with Windows 7.

I beginning to remember why I took a break from this last year. I spent months including entire weekends and made very little progress on the software side. I don't know if I'm downloading the wrong stuff, following the wrong directions, or using a machine ill suited for what I want. I'm much better with the actual cabinet and wiring.

[haynor666]

Are You sure that proper driver was used ?

http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=295

[Rogles]

I guess not. I was following a different guide for this. I'll start over with Windows 7 and give it another go. Thanks.

[Rogles]

We'll, I started over with windows 7 and I got groovymame, mala, and CRT emudriver all working! Still need to do some tweaks, but right now I am quite relieved. Thanks.