Suggestion for Improvement on Control Panel.

[Witchboard]

Hello.  I'm new to this, but plan on building a stand-up arcade cabinet.  All the information I've found here has been very helpful with my planning.  I've come up with 2 different plans for my control panel and I would like some constructive criticism.  They are both 4 player control panels.  I think I'm leaning more toward the second since it will be helpful in playing games that require 2 joysticks, like Smash TV.  I used the Visio templates found on this site, so the converted jpg files may be large.  Please note that I do not have any dimension as of yet since I'm not sure how big my cabinet will be.  Thanks everyone.

1st one here.
2nd one here.

[Luxury]

I say neither.  
Do not angle any of your joysticks - even players 3 and 4.  Trust me.

[Chris]

Everyone that I've seen that has angled their joysticks has regretted it later...

[screaming]

Why not angle third and fourth player? I did a search on 5 or 6 different search terms on here and these were the only 2 posts that came up with a negative comment on that kind of set up.

 /Steve

[Witchboard]

Then would you suggest I either stair-step or make a wide straight control panel?

[Minwah]

I say neither.  
Do not angle any of your joysticks - even players 3 and 4.  Trust me.

FWIW take a look at the Gauntlet control panel - all sticks point up towards the screen:

http://www.basementarcade.com/arcade/cpom/gaunt.jpg

[etumor]

I find it surprising that you say "everyone who has angled their joysticks has regretted it later."  Based on my own experience, I would have expected the opposite.  I suppose it depends on many factors.  It may depend on how wide your control panel is.  The original Gauntlet control panel wasn't very wide.

My control panel is 37" wide, and the 3rd and 4th player sides are at the extreme outside.  Players in those positions are standing on the side of the machine, not in front of it.  I originally had those joysticks face due north, but I discovered that most 4 player games became almost unplayable in those positions.  I rotated those two by 45 degrees (so that they point inward, toward the screen) and I have been very happy with them since (and no one else who has used the machine has had any trouble playing with them in that position).

I do agree that the 1st and 2nd player joysticks must face forward.  But that may not be true in the case of the outer controls (just one person's opinion).

-Jeff "etumor" Allen

[AlanS17]

Those pictures lie. Though the buttons may be angled in relation to their joysticks, the joysticks themselves are parallel in their relation to the monitor. Either of the first two mentioned setups would work ok as long as the joysticks themselves are not angled. However, I personally like the first one more. Nobody would make a control panel where all four people stand facing the glass. it would be 4 or 5 feet wide. However, as long as the joysticks themselves are parallel it should be fine.

[Witchboard]

So what you're saying is to have the joysticks all face north whether they are on the side or not?  Basically, not angled like I have my 3/4 player but straight like 1/2 player in my first plan even though you'll be standing at an angle to the monitor?

[Minwah]

Those pictures lie. Though the buttons may be angled in relation to their joysticks, the joysticks themselves are parallel in their relation to the monitor. Either of the first two mentioned setups would work ok as long as the joysticks themselves are not angled. However, I personally like the first one more. Nobody would make a control panel where all four people stand facing the glass. it would be 4 or 5 feet wide. However, as long as the joysticks themselves are parallel it should be fine.

What pictures do you mean?  My point with the Gaunlet pic was just what you are saying - up is always pointing to the screen for all players...

[RacerX]

The only way I would do that second one is if you had two monitors sitting so that each one faces two of the sticks.  It would blow to be playing a one player game and still have to be facing at an angle to the screen.

[Witchboard]

The only way I would do that second one is if you had two monitors sitting so that each one faces two of the sticks.  It would blow to be playing a one player game and still have to be facing at an angle to the screen.

I understand what your saying.  I'll probably be playing more single player than games like Smash TV.  Two monitors?  Sorry, no Cyberball cabinet here.  

[Luxury]

So what you're saying is to have the joysticks all face north whether they are on the side or not?  Basically, not angled like I have my 3/4 player but straight like 1/2 player in my first plan even though you'll be standing at an angle to the monitor?

Yes.  Even if the player is off to the side (3 & 4), they are still turned to face the monitor.  The monitor is always "Up". The buttons can pretty much be placed anywhere, though.  I have a 4 player panel, and I originally thought that 3 and 4 should be angled as well.  But play some 4 player games, and you will realize that they arent angled.  They are straight - no matter what.  
Or better yet - make a mock-up out of cardboard to see if you like it.  Maybe you will.  

[etumor]

Okay, I just finished experimenting on my own control panel.  I played Gauntlet and Simpsons.  Here are my impressions:

It's a tough call.  On my control panel, the red joystick (in the picture in my previous post) feels very natural being angled at 45 degrees, while the green joystick feels a little strange at that angle.  I think the reason is that the red joystick is further toward the back of the control panel, so the joystick itself is at more of an angle to the monitor.  The green joystick is at less of an angle, so the 45 degrees isn't as intuitive.

When I first built the cabinet, I had the joysticks in the same positions, but they all faced forward, and the red joystick felt really wrong.  I probably didn't pay much attention to the green joystick, I probably just thought it would be the same way, so I changed both of them.

No conclusions from all of that, it is just my observation, having just tried it with an eye for the problem.  I am currently designing a new control panel, and this is definitely something I will think about in the design.  One more problem to struggle with.

I would be interested in finding an old Gauntlet machine and trying one of the side positions to see how it feels.  I'll have to keep my eye out for one.

-Jeff "etumor" Allen

[Witchboard]

It's hard to find multiplayer machines in my area.  I haven't even been able to find a Neo-Geo cabinet.    I'm going to take measurements and use it for a base on my design.  I'll have to make changes accordingly of course.  There's one last place I'm going to check out, it's new, but I've heard of it before.

Seems I'm more confused now than ever, but I guess that's why we're here.  Live and learn.  etumor, you have a nice looking control panel there.  Is it cramped using the upper control panel since you have to lean over your lower one?  I think I'm going to go with the removeable type.  I can build a spinner/ball one when I get more resources and time.  Then switch them off when I need them.

Thanks everyone for the feedback.  Keep it coming, your helping more than you know.

[etumor]

Everyone asks whether or not it is cramped or if it is difficult to use the upper controls because you have to reach for them.  I suppose it is a natural question, and it is something I worried about when I designed it.  The answer is no, it feels perfectly fine whether you are using the lower controls or the upper ones.  My only complaint is that the buttons on the upper control panel are too far away from the joystick that you use them with -- that's one of the things I'm re-designing.

-Jeff "etumor" Allen

[Crayola]

Etumor,

What are those buttons to the right of each player button..
they are white with some sort of logo on them (difficult to tell) ? I assume
they are coin up buttons. Do they have a logo? What are the
other white buttons with text on them on the second level?
Where did you get them?

Thanks...
Crayola

[cdbrown]

I had thought about angling my joysticks in but after looking at other original 4 player cabs decided it would be best to have all joysticks aligned the same.  I have changed the location of the joystick in relation to the buttons for players 3 and 4.  For player 3 (left) the joystick is higher on the panel than the buttons while for player 4 the buttons are higher.  See here for my panel pic and here.

[hulkster]

hmmm, this post has got me worried now.  im probably going to build the pedestal design, and am wondering if i should make the angled joysticks or not for the third and fourth players.

see i play smash tv with my friend a lot (or at least i used to) and im wondering if the angle of the third and fourth joysticks will be messing up the player.  like if im standing at the player one side, and want to use the player 3 joysticks for the firing and the player one for the moving.....if player 3 is angled will that mess me up?  i mean, since im using the pedestal design, i can make my cp pretty wide, but how should i angle the joysticks?

[paigeoliver]

You CAN'T play dualjoy games properly unless your sticks are angled at the same angle.

I suggest having them all face forward, the way REAL games did it.

[jerryjanis]

If you look at any 4 player machine (gauntlet, D&D, turtles) all four joysticks are aligned the same way (you can tell by the way the bolts are connected.





I don't know about you guys, but that's all the convincing I need, especially when I know I want to play karate champ vs and total carnage.

[Witchboard]

Hmm.. well, I've decided to mount all the joysticks the same direction for the several reasons that were brought up in this thread.  Now I just have to decide on a layout that would provide me with the most room for my players.  I know there will be some amount of "crawling over each other" space, but I'm looking for a design to minimize that.  I guess I could make the control panel very large since I plan to make it removeable, but I would really like to keep it reasonable.  I've flipped the control panel in my previous pictures upside down and moved the controls to the flat side.  What do you think?  Here's a picture.  What do you guys suggest, and what luck have you had with your 4 player setups?  Thanks everyone for all the help.

[menace]

I like the angled one better for no other reason than it looks roomier by comparison.  Think of sitting down to a dinner table with you and three guys in a space of what 4ft?  Not an experience I would enjoy.  Just keep in mind you are not building a machine for us on the board, you are building a machine for you and your buddies.  if you hold authenticity above function, then thats your call, just don't change your layout based on what original manufacturer's had or what some guy who'll never use your cab suggests.

[Witchboard]

Yeah, I know it's all me in the end.  The only thing I don't have is the experience that others on the board have.  I'm basically looking for regrets and praises that they have run across in thier own experience.  I try to learn from other peoples mistakes vs. making my own.  I know it's all about opinion and no two people really have the same taste, but I also know that most everyone has one thing or another they wished they had done after building their control panels.  I guess I'm just trying to cheat.  

[etumor]

Etumor,

What are those buttons to the right of each player button..
they are white with some sort of logo on them (difficult to tell) ? I assume
they are coin up buttons. Do they have a logo? What are the
other white buttons with text on them on the second level?
Where did you get them?

Thanks...
Crayola

Take a look at my website to answer all of your questions:

http://www.cybercoma.com/supercade

Yes, they are coin buttons (with pictures of little quarters on them), and the other ones on the uppermost panel are start, pause, exit, and reset.  There are close up photos of all of those on my website.  The logos on them were printed on Avery labels, laminated, then stuck on the plain old Happ buttons.

Back to the original discussion, it might be best to look for what is the most functional without worrying about how the original machines were set up -- that is very true.  And if something like Smash TV is a priority, then it's kind of an easy call -- all four joysticks must point forward.  I am definitely thinking this issue through very carefully for my next control panel, and as a result of this thread I am considering ways to move all four joysticks away from the monitor, closer to being in a line, and make them all forward facing.  But if I end up with two at the far end, I will probably rotate them again, because on my design, it is definitely more functional that way (but I'll re-design it so that the "green" joystick is further up, more in line with the "red" joystick).

Very interesting discussion.

-Jeff "etumor" Allen

[hulkster]

okay cool, so have all the joysticks in one direction.  that would make more sense.

[Witchboard]

How about something like this?  Would decreasing the amount of CP realestate increase room for players?

[Reverend_Ken]

Aren't joystick inputs programmable?
I mean, if someone has joysticks which *aren't* all toward the monitor, can't he re-program the sticks to work like they are?

fuzzy wuzzy was a woman.

-K

[Tiger-Heli]

Aren't joystick inputs programmable?
I mean, if someone has joysticks which *aren't* all toward the monitor, can't he re-program the sticks to work like they are?

fuzzy wuzzy was a woman.

-K

Not really.  These are digital sticks.  If they were 90 degrees rotated, you could, but there's no way to say "When I activate 70% or the right switch and 30% of the Up switch, send true up.  The stick doesn't know.

[Xiaou2]

[cdbrown]

Nice diagrams Xiaou2 - very nice.  
Witchboard - Having all those corners and cutouts on the latest layout doesn't really work for me.  Having a straight section between P1 and P2 is good, then you should just angle off the the outer players.  The layout for p3 looks good and I would mirror that to player 4 although have the joystick lower in the panel (closer to the player) and buttons higher (closer to screen).  This may make the layout more symetrical

[Witchboard]

Xiaou2 - Interesting.  I'll mess with something a little and see what I can come up with based on your design.

cdbrown - I wasn't sure if cutting the CP would allow more room for my players or not.  You would suggest the last layout with the CP shape of the first one?  I'm not too worried about it being symetrical, I'm more concerned about comfort.  After reading etumor's statement that his 4th player controls felt odd, I thought that maybe the 3rd and 4th player controls should be different since their position to the CP would be different.  I guess I'll never know until I order my parts and start robbing my neighbors trash of their cardboard.  

[cdbrown]

Cardboard is fantastic - so is cheap chipboard.  I used both, but chipboard is better because you can actually give it a good work out, while cardboard will collapse.

What I am suggesting is you take the shape and layout of your 1st suggestion.  Leaving the joystick and button locations as they are on that.  Then just rotate the p3 joystick anticlockwise so that it is parallel to P1.  Now, the amount you rotated the joystick do the same to p3 buttons.  Just rotate them about the center point of the four buttons.  

Now rotate p4 joystick clockwise to get parallel and do the same to the buttons.  See if you like that way.  I find it comfortable and would suit the shape of you panel

[Luxury]

i agree.  i edited your first image a little bit to what i would recommend.  straighten your joysticks, and move players 1 and 2 up off of the edge a bit.  give your wrists a little something to rest on.  
i didnt mess with the buttons like cdbrown suggested though.  thats really up to you i think.  

[Witchboard]

Here's my rendition of what Xiaou2 was talking about.  It will definitely on my list of possible candidates for testing when I get my hardware.  It will be a square CP, but that's fine with me too.

cdbrown:  I took a look at your website and your CP layout.  Are you talking about something similar to that?  I noticed that your 3rd and 4th player controls are different.  Have you had good luck with it?

Luxury:  I agree as well.  I've already decided to have all joysticks face the same direction.  Moving the 1 & 2 player contorls up is also a good idea.  I think it even looks better.  I'm sure I would have done that when my guinee pigs compained that they didn't have anything to rest their hands on.

I've seen a couple of stair step styles on the web as well.  Has anyone had any experience with these?

Thanks for all the input everybody.

[cdbrown]

My panel hasn't been used in the cab yet but has been used while sitting on a coffee table, which meant 4 people sitting next to each other.  This is a lot less comfortable than standing and takes up more room but no one complained.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/craigrb/images/CIMG0329.JPG <- that link shows my panel quite well.  P3 joy is above the buttons, P4 is below.  Plenty of room for all players to rest their wrists on the panel.

This is how some 4-player sports games are.  I tried to lay mine out like nba jam but didn't like how they had the buttons rotated differently for each player.   Instead I tried to have all the joysticks and buttons orientated the same way.  I just moved the joysticks and button locations around to fit more people.  Also considering the outer players will be slightly turned in towards the tv having the joystick offset to the buttons seems ergonomically correct for my cab.

[Witchboard]

Are all your joys mounted the same direction?  I can't tell since you don't have bolts running through your CP.  I can see why you did the layout that way.  It does look more comfortable for the 3rd and 4th players to have their buttons that way.

[Buddabing]

Here's my rendition of what Xiaou2 was talking about.  It will definitely on my list of possible candidates for testing when I get my hardware.  It will be a square CP, but that's fine with me too.

cdbrown:  I took a look at your website and your CP layout.  Are you talking about something similar to that?  I noticed that your 3rd and 4th player controls are different.  Have you had good luck with it?

Luxury:  I agree as well.  I've already decided to have all joysticks face the same direction.  Moving the 1 & 2 player contorls up is also a good idea.  I think it even looks better.  I'm sure I would have done that when my guinee pigs compained that they didn't have anything to rest their hands on.

I've seen a couple of stair step styles on the web as well.  Has anyone had any experience with these?

Thanks for all the input everybody.

I think you should place your controls for what you will use most often. Will you be playing four-player games all the time, or just two-player?

In my own case, I want to have the capability of playing four-player games, but mostly I

[Witchboard]

I'll be playing mostly 2 player games, but 4 player games will be played quite a bit for parties and when I imagine my son's friends coming over.  I like the way you have yours setup, but isn't that going to be a little large?  I guess if you have a wide cabinet it wouldn't matter.  I'm not sure how wide mine will be yet so I'm not sure how much room I have to play with.  Haven't managed to find the cabinet I'm looking for to measure at the local arcades.  Good stuff though.

[cdbrown]

Are all your joys mounted the same direction?  I can't tell since you don't have bolts running through your CP.  I can see why you did the layout that way.  It does look more comfortable for the 3rd and 4th players to have their buttons that way.

Yes - all joysticks are mounted in the same direction.  When I was planning all this I drew each component out (by hand - didn't have a pc prog).  Cut each item out (leaving each players buttons grouped) and just put them down somewhere and put my hands over it to try and feel where everything might go.  I tried all sorts of combinations.  Once I was happy with the layout I transfered it to cardboard and put the real controls in.  I made some minor adjustments and went to chipboard.  did some more testing on the chipboard and then moved up to the final panel.  It wasn't the quickest way of doing it but I wasn't in any hurry.