2 1/4" trackball?

[acvieluf]

Curious if anyone's using the 2 1/4" Ultimarc trackball, and what you think of it?  I've tried to search, but it won't let me put the "2" by itself.

I MAY have a problem with room, and i'm curious if that size is still adequate for games such as bowling and golden tee?

[acvieluf]

Is it safe to assume that everyone uses the 3" ball?

[markc74]

Might take more than 2 (edit because i can't tell the difference between am and pm  ) 14 hours to get a response chap. Peeps here are all over the world so different time zones

I've used a 2.25 trackball before and it works perfectly well for trackball games - however it's way smaller than a 3" in practice and definitely not the same as a 3" so it's down to preference. Trackballs use a lot of under control panel real estate (and even more above panel real estate to be practical) so if you're running low on space you might want to think about having a separate usb trackball for the occasions you want to use it rather than sacrifice the rest of the panel.

[mgb]

I have a 2.25" trackball and it's fine
Definitely good for Centipede (it's what Centipede machine had)

I have used it to play the golf and bowling games and I was fine wit it

For Missile Command, nothing is quite as good as the original 4" trackball but I still fully enjoy it with my 2.25"


I say the 2.25" is the perfect size compromise.

[acvieluf]

Might take more than 2 (edit because i can't tell the difference between am and pm  ) 14 hours to get a response chap. Peeps here are all over the world so different time zones

Yeah. Being that this is my first project, and I'm pretty new here, I'll admit that I can be a bit anxious. My thoughts are pretty much consumed with arcade dreams whenever I have down time, haha.

Thanks for the input, you two.

My curiosity is, it doesn't look like Ultimarc sells a trackball for a metal CP that is 3". I know others do, but I was hoping for Ultimarc (if I have room) for ease of iPac 2 usage.

[Frank Drebin]

Why couldn't you use the u-trak and create a 5/8" spacer ring so that it fits flush on the metal CP?

[RandyT]

As a side note, what folks may not realize is that the ball size plays a substantial part in the final resolution of the trackball.  It goes something like ((ball circumference) / (roller circumference)) x (encoder resolution).  The larger the ball, the more the roller spins when it is moved.  This may or may not be important, depending on the intended use of the trackball, but it's something which deserves consideration, especially if used as a mouse for OS desktops or with native PC games.

[acvieluf]

So doing some measurements, i had a major face palm moment.  I forgot that i was going to pick up an original Sega CP to keep things looking "stock." (This wasn't always the plan).  With this info, i am PRETTY sure i will have enough room for a 2 1/4" ball.  Just no room for the "follow-through" on it.  I gotta have me some Golden Tee, though, so basic be darned.

so if you're running low on space you might want to think about having a separate usb trackball for the occasions you want to use it rather than sacrifice the rest of the panel.

I'll have to look for some good implementations of that.  I know if i could put the smaller trackball in, it will look good. I just hope it's really workable.  AT WORST, it'll be a good ball for millipede and such, a better Golden Tee solution later.

As a side note, what folks may not realize is that the ball size plays a substantial part in the final resolution of the trackball.  It goes something like ((ball circumference) / (roller circumference)) x (encoder resolution).  The larger the ball, the more the roller spins when it is moved.  This may or may not be important, depending on the intended use of the trackball, but it's something which deserves consideration, especially if used as a mouse for OS desktops or with native PC games.

I have read and re-read, and i'm having a hard time understanding this:  What does that mean for regular usage?  I get that it spins more, but will that severely effect gameplay?

Thanks for everyone taking the time.   

[DeLuSioNal29]

In a nutshell:
A bigger trackball will require less movement by the player to make the object in the game move.
A smaller trackball will require more movement  by the player to make the object in the game move.

Similar to the rules of a spinning object (the outer edge moves faster than the center):
http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/22262-a-spinning-circle/

[RandyT]

In a nutshell:
A bigger trackball will require less movement by the player to make the object in the game move.
A smaller trackball will require more movement  by the player to make the object in the game move.

It's important to note the caveat of an identical encoder wheel resolution for each (which I believe they are.)  And while it's possible to make an encoder wheel for a 2.25" trackball which would increase the resolution to that of the 3", I would suspect that the smaller surface area of the ball might have a somewhat negative impact on the amount of control one has with it.  My guess is that this is the reason why the larger 4" ball was used for Missile Command, where fast and accurate cursor placement was integral to gameplay.

[haynor666]

In a nutshell:
A bigger trackball will require less movement by the player to make the object in the game move.
A smaller trackball will require more movement  by the player to make the object in the game move.

Similar to the rules of a spinning object (the outer edge moves faster than the center):
http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/22262-a-spinning-circle/

In mame we can actually tweak this so it's not that important but bigger will be probably more easy to control.

[acvieluf]

wow, great to know.  Thanks everyone.

[RandyT]

In mame we can actually tweak this so it's not that important but bigger will be probably more easy to control.

Tweaking to go lower isn't bad.  But trying to increase resolution sacrifices accuracy.  It's much like displaying a digital image.  You can always make it smaller without sacrificing quality.  But enlarging it almost always introduces error.

[langlem]

Hi there.... I use a 2 1/4 trackball in a stand up and TWO 2 1/4 inch tb's in my head to head cocktail.  They all are the style that  hook up directly via usb.  They work just fine for Centipede...  just ok for Golden Tee.  Thats really not a ball issue tho.  More of a design issue trying to cram too much stuff on the cp.

The only real problem I have is damn Windows constantly reassigning the ID's on me.  It never fails...work just fine until the party starts... then someone comes over to tell me "hey man, your ball dont't move in Centipede..."   gotta tab in and reset the controls

OK...sorry... did not mean to derail.  All in all I am happy with the 2 1/4.

Thanks.

Matt

[paigeoliver]

While I prefer a 3" trackball the Golden Tee games don't actually require that monitor smacking follow through.

So doing some measurements, i had a major face palm moment.  I forgot that i was going to pick up an original Sega CP to keep things looking "stock." (This wasn't always the plan).  With this info, i am PRETTY sure i will have enough room for a 2 1/4" ball.  Just no room for the "follow-through" on it.  I gotta have me some Golden Tee, though, so basic be darned.

so if you're running low on space you might want to think about having a separate usb trackball for the occasions you want to use it rather than sacrifice the rest of the panel.

I'll have to look for some good implementations of that.  I know if i could put the smaller trackball in, it will look good. I just hope it's really workable.  AT WORST, it'll be a good ball for millipede and such, a better Golden Tee solution later.

As a side note, what folks may not realize is that the ball size plays a substantial part in the final resolution of the trackball.  It goes something like ((ball circumference) / (roller circumference)) x (encoder resolution).  The larger the ball, the more the roller spins when it is moved.  This may or may not be important, depending on the intended use of the trackball, but it's something which deserves consideration, especially if used as a mouse for OS desktops or with native PC games.

I have read and re-read, and i'm having a hard time understanding this:  What does that mean for regular usage?  I get that it spins more, but will that severely effect gameplay?

Thanks for everyone taking the time.   

[mgb]

While I prefer a 3" trackball the Golden Tee games don't actually require that monitor smacking follow through.

Amen to that

[Xiaou2]

From what I remember from feel.. is that the 2.25" trackball actually moves smoother, faster, and rolls longer with a good spin... than the 3" trackballs.   I believe there is more friction at work... and or the placement of the rollers being different.

 Its my belief that its better to use a 2.25" trackball for most games.. as thats what most classic games used.   It wasnt really until Golden Tee games.. that you started seeing 3" trackballs being used widespread.

 Missile Command and X O Footballs large trackball is indeed a different experience.   While maybe its true that you might get more resolution... that also depends on how the Opto boards are set up, optical wheel resolution, and how the programming all work together...   

 The larger ball itself is somewhat part of the challenge.   Its heavier, taking more effort to start and stop quickly...  and as said before... there seems to be a lot more friction at work... especially with these monsters.

 With XO Football,  the resolution was not a factor for sure.  I was spinning that thing at max velocity, with all of my might... but the characters move pretty slow.   Its meant to give you a real sweaty workout... to simulate real running fatigue and endurance...  and wow does it ever work! 

[RandyT]

From what I remember from feel.. is that the 2.25" trackball actually moves smoother, faster, and rolls longer with a good spin... than the 3" trackballs.   I believe there is more friction at work... and or the placement of the rollers being different.

 Its my belief that its better to use a 2.25" trackball for most games.. as thats what most classic games used.   It wasnt really until Golden Tee games.. that you started seeing 3" trackballs being used widespread.

I don't know that these statements are accurate.  A sphere against a cylindrical roller will have a very small point of contact with each other, and the difference between those two sizes in that arrangement would be negligible.  On the other hand, if you are comparing a 3" with worn rollers, where the cylinder is bellied out from wear, with a newer 2.25, there will obviously be a difference in friction.  Also, a 3" should have a more sustained roll, as it is heavier and has momentum working in it's favor.  There are a number of factors which account for a long spinning ball, which can apply equally to either type.

And 3" trackballs were more widely used than you are implying.  Marble Madness and Crystal Castles, to name a couple, were 3".  It's also a lot better fit to arguably the best reason for owning one, Missile Command.  Centipede and Millipede are the most notable 2.25" trackball examples, but these never felt right in MAME, regardless of the size of the ball.

[Slippyblade]

I played Missile Command at Zapcon last year on a cabaret and I'm pretty sure it was a 2.25" ball.  It definitely wasn't a 4" and the difference was noticable.  I've played on a proper 4" ball before and it seemed a lot more responsive than with the smaller ball.  It might have been a wear issue, I don't know.  I just know the experience was nicer with the 4" than on the 2.25"

[cw]

missile command cabaret and cocktail had 2.25"  upright and cockpit had the 4.25" high profile balls..