Tactile feedback (bass shakers) discussion (split from triple screen rig thread)

[Xiaou2]

EDIT by BadMouth: Topic split from Ant's triple screen rig thread
Fursphere's comment is relevant in both places, so I've quoted into this post as the start of the tactile feedback/vibration isolation discussion.

Springs are to improve the tactile. A lot of tactile usually gets lost with it going in to the floor.  I previously isolated the seat well and had rubber on each of the feet for my 2x clarka,  but now im going with the 4 corners etc, the best way to isolate is with the springs.
Love to go with a movement rig, but they are alot of money. Going with these 6 springs,  hoping they will support my weight as they are saddle springs and im only 76kg. I load tested 2 and it seemed very adequate.

Got them really cheap from china, circa  £16 for all 6, so thought if give it a go.

There was a guy using springs units from one of the simracing forums, the ones he bought were from a u.s company and would of cost me £200 odd with all the taxes. But anyway the tactile effects were crazy enhanced, so even if i only get a small boost it'll be worth it.

Damn it.  Now I've got to research springs.  I knew I shouldn't have asked. 

This guy used tennis balls of all things instead of springs or rubber isolators.

(Warning, this rig is insane - this guy spared no expense...)

http://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/18344-finished-dontsinfiresuit-another-project-by-kj/

Page 3 is about where the 'Wilson Sandwich' kicks in..

-----------------------------------------------

Original post by Xiaou2:


At first,  when Tennis ball was mentioned... I thought maybe it meant as in replacement of the standing feet... which didnt make sense,
as the weight would be too much.

 Then I saw the pics.   15 tennis balls  ?,  on a floating floor.

 Interesting.

 One has to wonder... if maybe it might be more useful to just use air filled tires on the frame corners ?
Just like a real car... the rubber air filled tires absorb the vibrations...


 Seeing how much money and effort was dumped into such a project,  also makes me wonder if it wouldnt have been better to make a
full 2 axis motion sim cabinet instead.

 Transducers are great... but at the cost that it takes to get 4 or more amped up...  it might be close to the cost of some motion devices...
which would provide far more felt expression..   ?

[Howard_Casto]

It seems to me that rubber balls would dampen the effect, not increase it.  I know the air in the balls would push back some, but the rubber in the balls would probably dampen any push back.  Springs make more sense to me. 

[Xiaou2]

Generally speaking...   I think most people are simply trying to isolate the vibrations going to the floor to stop them from bothering others with the noise.   Imagine a mini jackhammer constantly going for hours...

 Springs could amplify the effect.. But it comes at a cost.    Delays, slop, Inaccuracy, etc.

 Transducers have a mass that is suspended in a balanced way...  and the coils and springs inside of them, are well capable of keeping that mass under tight accurate control.    This is important... because if there is delay in start, stop, and acceleration....etc..   the effects you are trying to generate will not feel correct...     

 And in the case of the special software these guys are using,  which is made to deliver sensations to different parts of the car (frame)... It will not portray the 3d positional data in the timely and accurate manor... and so all that money you dumped into the project to try to feel the road, tires, pedal, shifter ...etc..  will not be worth peanuts.   It wont help you to feel the track to perform better in a race, due to these delays and inaccuracies.

 The springs, unlike the Shakers, do not have coils to keep them tight and right.

 How much distortion is really the question.   If there is adequate mass, and the spring is fairly loaded...  and the shakers are not powerful enough to really over-excite the frame... then it may be acceptable.

 Springs in this application are tricky, even without transducers.   Getting springs that are strong enough to hold you, the frame, the control, monitor, etc...  and yet still be centered in its flex.. is tricky.    Then if your larger friend sits in it..  will it bottom out?   Or if you are the big guy... then the skinny kid wont even flex the springs.

 This is why if you were going to buy some of those springy jumping stilt boots..  you have to make sure to get the right spring type, based on your weight range.

 Springs also tend to lose their resilience over time..  especially the lower gauge springs.



 Which ultimately makes me think...  again...  if you are trying to translate 3d movement to magnetic transducers...  What would it take to make mega coil versions, that act like pistons?    I believe thats what a linear motor is?

 The only thing I can think,  is that some of the Motion cabs Servo style (I think these are worm gear motors)  actuators are not quick enough to make very fast and tight vibrations.

[BadMouth]

I think you are overanalyzing it.
The idea is to increase the feeling of immersion and fun factor.

Years ago I saw an interview with the top iracing winners.
All of them kept the force feedback turned off and played at their desk or kitchen table.
I thought it was pretty funny that these guys were the ones winning rather than people with thousands of dollars invested in a rig.
They viewed it more as a game than a simulator.
At the time, all the cues that you were at the tires' limits were audio.
Having ffb turned off allowed them to perform better at the game, which was their goal.




Things have changed a bit now as iracing has switched to a model where you can feel through the ffb that the wheels are slipping.
I haven't checked up to see what the top people are using now.  They're probably given a free wheel by a sponsor. 

[Fursphere]

I think you are overanalyzing it.
The idea is to increase the feeling of immersion and fun factor.

Years ago I saw an interview with the top iracing winners.
All of them kept the force feedback turned off and played at their desk or kitchen table.
I thought it was pretty funny that these guys were the ones winning rather than people with thousands of dollars invested in a rig.
They viewed it more as a game than a simulator.
At the time, all the cues that you were at the tires' limits were audio.
Having ffb turned off allowed them to perform better at the game, which was their goal.




Things have changed a bit now as iracing has switched to a model where you can feel through the ffb that the wheels are slipping.
I haven't checked up to see what the top people are using now.  They're probably given a free wheel by a sponsor. 

This is a hot topic in the sim racing world.   A lot of the top guys turn the force feedback resistance way down so they don't get worn out in long races, and the SimVibe stuff gets turned off.

Anytime you take something 'fun' and make it 'competitive' - there is always going to be the extreme 'win at all costs' (WaaC) people playing...    and if you aren't will to do the silly stuff they're doing to be at the top, just accept the fact that you'll never be at the top and have fun instead. 

I have two transducers running off a single amp.  It was like $200 in hardware, then, the stupid $70 SimVibe / SimExperience license.  The software runs both the transducers and the full motion rigs - so you only buy it once if you decide to get crazy.   The full motion rigs are still just too damn expensive for me.  I have considered moving to a four transducer setup.  Either "chassis' mode where its one transducer per wheel, or just double up the extension mode where its pedals and seat areas (which is what I run now).  You'd need six to get everything, and two sound cards dedicated to SimVibe. 

As long as you stay away from the Buttkicker brand, its not too insane.

[Howard_Casto]

Well sure, but if you want to win you use a gamepad. 

I was going with the K.I.S.S.  model myself.  I've got all these old car stereos and they handle several watts, so I was just going to pull an amp from one of them and that'll handle 4 thumpers so long as I add another sound card.  I've got a bunch of speakers lying around as well... because I'm from W.Va.   so I'm going to try building a transducer just to clear out some of my junk more than anything else. 

[isamu]

I have two transducers running off a single amp.  It was like $200 in hardware, then, the stupid $70 SimVibe / SimExperience license.  The software runs both the transducers and the full motion rigs - so you only buy it once if you decide to get crazy.   The full motion rigs are still just too damn expensive for me.  I have considered moving to a four transducer setup.  Either "chassis' mode where its one transducer per wheel, or just double up the extension mode where its pedals and seat areas (which is what I run now).  You'd need six to get everything, and two sound cards dedicated to SimVibe. 

As long as you stay away from the Buttkicker brand, its not too insane.

Good post and info, but I found your comments about Buttkicker interesting. As someone who will be looking to buy four transducers and run simvibe in chasis mode sometime next month, I'm curious what you have against the Buttkicker shakers? I was dead set on getting the Mini LFE's from SimX along with two smaller 2-channel amps. I hear the Clarks....even the $100 ones.....are a pretty good option too.

[Fursphere]

I have nothing against buttkicker other than the raw cost. 

My Aura 50watt shaker is about $50 (you can find them for $40 on sale occasionally).   (50wt period)

The Buttkicker Mini LFE 50watt is $90 - Is it really worth double the cost?  I mean it is rated at 50wt - 250wt, assuming you have an amp that can push that high.   The 'big ones' get up to $400 range and require a minimum 1000wt amp. 

I cranked my amp up and the two 50wt auras I have now put out a lot of feedback (although its not all useful..  there is some tuning involved with the effects translation).   There is also the question of effective frequency ranges.  Not all transducers have the same range - and I think buttkickers require a much lower (more bass) signal before they start producing output compared to the auras. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm sure the buttkicker's put out a lot more feedback / stronger output - but I'm not convinced the extra output provides any value to the overall experience, or is worth the extra cost.

I use engine vibration and road bumps on my setup, and I find that that along keeps me better in sync with the car around when I should be shifting and what not.  (I'm completely hooked on Dirt Rally).  If you add too many effects (different telemetry feeds basically) they all kind of get blurred together.  Less is more.  Its subtle - but after playing for a while with it, then turning it off - you really notice it being gone. 

Having a good wheel makes a bigger difference in 'road feel' though...

[Howard_Casto]

Should we split this off into another topic?  We've killed ant2's wip page. 

[BadMouth]

Should we split this off into another topic?  We've killed ant2's wip page.

Done.  It wasn't too bad, but we could use a dedicated thread for this topic.

[Howard_Casto]

Well anyway.  Assuming I get done with wrapping tonight I'll maybe make a test one tomorrow.  I started looking through stuff and man I have too many speakers. 

[ant2]

Fursphere have you got a link to your cabinet.


On the discussion regarding the shakers, i just think the buttkickers are way over priced for what they are.
I like the clarks i have and with a 150+watt amp you will never need any more power, i don't run it even on half power, otherwise you shake yourself to bits.

The best bang for your buck after all the research i have done are the sinus bass pumps, 50watt. I have 2 on my sofa (one on each seat) and if mounted properly have ample power. I have no idea what people are doing with these 500+watt transducers.

This is mainly because in the u.k we can get only source the sinuslive or the butt kickers, otherwise the alternative is to import the equivalent aura from the states, which starts getting expensive.

If you are looking to use them out of your bass output on your sound card I.e not solely simvibe, you need to get a mono amp with a variable cross over.
I tried various amps and cross overs and just wasted time and money.

Get yourself a decent mono amp that can be plugged in to the mains.
i got mine from conrad electronics

[Fursphere]

There is a link to my cabinet in my signature, although I haven't updated it in awhile.   There are some pics there of an older transducer setup. 

I guess I'll have to update the thread today when it warms up out in the garage. 

My under seat transducer is mounting to an aluminum plate, which is mounted to the bottom of the seat frame.  I have suspicions that the aluminum plate may be vibrating (oscillating? ) with the transducer, lessening the overall output of the Aura transducer. With the amount of effort I have to go through to remove the seat, I just haven't messed with it to confirm or deny that suspicion. 

The under pedal transducer is mounted under the platform (floor) of the cabinet, directly under where the pedals sit on the 3/4" plywood flood.  While this one works fine, there is a lot of cabinet around it.  Might not be optimal.   I dunno?   Without some sort of testing equipment its hard to get good data other than subjective "I think this is better" type stuff. 

I did look at the Clarks when I was putting my rig together.  They're a lot bigger physically that the Auras and cost a bit more.  I went with the Auras mainly due to cost, and I had no idea if the whole SimVibe concept was just a gimmick - or would actually contribute to the overall experience.