triple screen rig

[ant2]

Finally had a chance to start rebuilding the rig.
This is some of the work i have been doing over the last few weeks.

Current transducer set up.
2x clark synthesis transducers

[ant2]

Testing out my denon 7.1 amp and 1 transducer with simvibe.
Amp is going to power 6x 50w 8ohmz sinus live bass pumps running via simvibe.

[ant2]

My front and center speakers were mounted on brackets behind the wheel.

I have built a dash enclosure to house them instead, screwed directly to the wood. Then i got some metal to make speaker grills.

Test fitting speaker. Getting everything to line up, cut the holes etc took forever




Carpeting fun



All carpeted, screwed in and speakers tested

[ant2]

Wheel and gearstick are mounted to this base



Carpetted

[ant2]

I wanted to reverse mount the g27 wheels. I made a base out of really thick wood.


Upgraded the brake spring from gt eye (thinks the name) and switched the old brake spring to the clutch:




Carpetted and refitted, picture is missing the pedal plates.


This screws in to the block of wood at the front of the rig (see pictures above) will carpet this wood. This puts the pedals at a nice angle.

[ant2]

In progress: mounting 4 transducers at all 4 corners and wiring up.

Install transducer behind pedals.
Install transducer under gear stick mount.
Carpet front of rig.

[BadMouth]

How much did you pay for those transducers?

[ant2]

The sinuslive bass pumps were circa £25-£30 each.
I used 2x 4ohm ones under our sofa and they were amazing for the money, i probably prefer them to the clark because they are much smaller and easier to mount. They are made/shipped from germany

The clark cost quite a bit more and i got them from partsexpress, but the main cost is the shipping cost + import taxes.

[Howard_Casto]

How much did you pay for those transducers?

I've been reading up on these.  Apparently a home made one often works much better than the pre-fab. 



There are various schools of thought in terms of the particulars but basically cut out the cone, epoxy a bolt to the center and use a bit of plastic or wood to hold the bolt in place.  I'm going to try it. 

[Xiaou2]

Im not so sure that little bugger works better than my Aura's.

 If you smack the Aura hard... you can feel a vibration of some internal mass moving back and forth.

 The more mass you move, the more powerful the vibrations can be.

 If that mass isnt able to move easily  (seems to be a bit "fixed" in this example) ... then I believe the vibrations will be a bit shunted / negated.

[BadMouth]

Eh, for no more than the smaller ones cost I'd rather have something engineered with a suspension system meant to handle the mass and keep it aligned.

[Xiaou2]

looking at the Aura's taken apart on the web... it seems they use an upper and lower coil set.   The coils are wide diameter, which helps in power factor and dispersal.     They use a wide diameter mass that sits in the middle..  and is helped kept centered / sprung, using what looks to be a rigid material formed into a sort of flat spring.  (looks similar to the old plastic record centering discs)

 This allows the mass ease of motion in either direction, yet well supported and fairly well prevented from bottoming out.


 With the design shown,  it would seem that the same kind of mass that the Aura packs... would be too much for most typical speakers to suspend without issue.   Also, not being able to accelerate & decelerate it well enough... may cause over-heating issues and possibly sort out the coil to boot.

 The versions of this that seem to work best.. are probably going to be the ones that use a top-bar that has some flexibility... and acts similar to the rigid centering springs of the Aura.  Allowing easy movement... without bearing too much anti-pressure.

 Typical speakers are not meant to move a lot of air,  let alone deal with mass.    Well made Woofers made before the 80s, had powerful woofers able to be placed in sealed air boxes (using the air pressure as sort of the centering spring).   Most of todays garbage is open-port (fake-bass)  with low coil strength woofers.

 A mildly powerful sub-woofer, with decent magnet and excursion.. might be the best option for the DIY experiment.   Subs tend to have heavier power coils, higher power coils.. and work in sealed boxes.   The limitation however... is that many subs do not handle very much range.   Where as a tactile transducer, i believe, can register even mid-bass level frequencies, as vibrations.   (though, you will want to cut out the highs, and maybe mids as well.. with a cutoff filter)


 An interesting modification idea to try:   ... would be to place two speakers face to face... with a heavy mass in the middle.    The speakers would probably have to be wired in series... and in a way (probably polarity crossed)   that they fired in the same direction (phase)....  This would give more power to the magnetic suspension, and thus more accurate control of the mass movement.  The overall mass of the unit would also increase, and that too.. may be a factor in the end resulting power output.


 Amazingly enough... the two Auras I have are the low power versions.   At something like 15 to 25 watts max.   Two of them under my PC chair at full power... and there was so much vibration that I literally couldnt make out what was on my monitor... because my eyes just saw a blur, from all the vibrations happening.   Turned down to a respectable level.. and it was perfectly awesome addition to the gaming and move experience.

 The power levels might not be strong enough for a well padded chair or large couch however.    The place where they are mounted can make all the world of difference, in the output you feel.

 A note of caution... if anyone lives below you, especially if your floor isnt carpeted,.. those vibrations will carry through the floor quite easily.   Some rubber absorbing dampener feet might be an option to help with this aspect.

[ant2]

Floor carpeted

[ant2]

4 extra transducers installed at all 4 corners:

[ant2]

In progress :
More carpeting/covering
Attach speaker section
Spring fitting

[Howard_Casto]

Ok I know I'm going to regret this because it's sure to take me down a rabbit hole from which I'll never return but.....  what are the springs for?

[ant2]

Springs are to improve the tactile. A lot of tactile usually gets lost with it going in to the floor.  I previously isolated the seat well and had rubber on each of the feet for my 2x clarka,  but now im going with the 4 corners etc, the best way to isolate is with the springs.
Love to go with a movement rig, but they are alot of money. Going with these 6 springs,  hoping they will support my weight as they are saddle springs and im only 76kg. I load tested 2 and it seemed very adequate.

Got them really cheap from china, circa  £16 for all 6, so thought if give it a go.

There was a guy using springs units from one of the simracing forums, the ones he bought were from a u.s company and would of cost me £200 odd with all the taxes. But anyway the tactile effects were crazy enhanced, so even if i only get a small boost it'll be worth it.

[SailorSat]

hahaha... and once the batmobile launches, his butshakers will shoot him into space XD

Looks nice

[Howard_Casto]

Springs are to improve the tactile. A lot of tactile usually gets lost with it going in to the floor.  I previously isolated the seat well and had rubber on each of the feet for my 2x clarka,  but now im going with the 4 corners etc, the best way to isolate is with the springs.
Love to go with a movement rig, but they are alot of money. Going with these 6 springs,  hoping they will support my weight as they are saddle springs and im only 76kg. I load tested 2 and it seemed very adequate.

Got them really cheap from china, circa  £16 for all 6, so thought if give it a go.

There was a guy using springs units from one of the simracing forums, the ones he bought were from a u.s company and would of cost me £200 odd with all the taxes. But anyway the tactile effects were crazy enhanced, so even if i only get a small boost it'll be worth it.

Damn it.  Now I've got to research springs.  I knew I shouldn't have asked. 

[Xiaou2]

You might want to consider locking the bass shakers to the actual frame.. and not just the top panels.

 You could try to place some flat 2x4 boards that span the bottom,  and lock in to the frame on the left and right.   You then could screw the shakers onto them,  giving a stronger connection to the entire frame.

[Fursphere]

Springs are to improve the tactile. A lot of tactile usually gets lost with it going in to the floor.  I previously isolated the seat well and had rubber on each of the feet for my 2x clarka,  but now im going with the 4 corners etc, the best way to isolate is with the springs.
Love to go with a movement rig, but they are alot of money. Going with these 6 springs,  hoping they will support my weight as they are saddle springs and im only 76kg. I load tested 2 and it seemed very adequate.

Got them really cheap from china, circa  £16 for all 6, so thought if give it a go.

There was a guy using springs units from one of the simracing forums, the ones he bought were from a u.s company and would of cost me £200 odd with all the taxes. But anyway the tactile effects were crazy enhanced, so even if i only get a small boost it'll be worth it.

Damn it.  Now I've got to research springs.  I knew I shouldn't have asked. 

This guy used tennis balls of all things instead of springs or rubber isolators.

(Warning, this rig is insane - this guy spared no expense...)

http://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/18344-finished-dontsinfiresuit-another-project-by-kj/

Page 3 is about where the 'Wilson Sandwich' kicks in..

[ant2]

Transducer for shifter fitted:


Started mounting speaker panels, more vinyl covering under way:



Rear speakers were bolted to the rig:

I wanted these raised up so they were ear level.
Got some old unused metal poles, beat the bottom to make them flat, drilled some holes to screw to the rear corners of the rig.




Covered, just need to cut off excess, thread speaker wires, bolt everything together :



To do:
Finish off rear speaker mounting
More covering
More spring test mounting. -

[ant2]

Rear speakers poles finished.

[ant2]

Blocks that the springs will sit in.
Took ages to work out the right hole sizes. - the top was actually bored  out again after this picture from 42mm to 50mm


Finally got it all mounted up. So my rig now has suspension.

The springs started to slightly coil at 70kg. There's 6 on the rig and it feels perfect. Not too firm and not saggy at all.





Spent another 4+ hours getting the sound cards working with simvibe, ensuring all outputs work, levels etc.
Re mounted rear transducers on the feet at the corners like i did at the front. As it was losing too much vibration on the floor and i can't up the volume with this cinema amp wheb using the rca inputs.

[Xiaou2]

 I read someone say, that if transducers are placed horizontally... it will feel and react completely wrong, due to the forces being applied in the wrong vector.

 I suggest keeping them locked to the corners of the frame... but instead of vertically,  mount them on the exact frames corners.

 Screw in a diagonal 2x4 piece,  so that the shakers can mount to both corners, and the diagonal frame section that you add.
That should keep the vibrations strong on the frame.    (not getting absorbed into a flexible seat panel)

 ========
 II      //
 II    //
 II   //
 II //
 II
 II
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 =___===
 I/       \/
 I\___/
 II   //
 II //
 II
 II
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Edit:  To further increase the transmitted forces,  You might consider making the frame even more Rigid,  by adding second (or even third) set of long frame 2x4s,  to the main frame.     Glue then Screw them to the main frame, like every 8 inches.

 The more rigid the frame is.. the less likely any vibration will be lost to wood flexing.   Especially now that its suspended in the air on springs.

[ant2]

Where did you read that mounting vertically was not a good idea?
From what i read others have found vertically at the corners was more effective,  apparently the wheel vibrations should then feel up and down, like a real car,  rather than side to side.

I have a cross mount in the middle for my sear transducers and i didn't want another bar going across just 6inches back from that, as i won't be able to differentiate the two.

It's worked out quite well in the corners. Ive removed my rubber dampers from the seat mounts today, now that the rig is elevated and i have the four corners.

[ant2]

Removed rubber dampers since the rig is now suspended and more transducers added.





Pedals mounted in place



Speaker surround in, speaker wiring done



More leather going back in

[BadMouth]

I'd just like to say that I like this kind of build.
It's not all polished and factory fresh looking, but you are trying new things, figuring out what works, and others are learning from it.
I'll take one of these builds over a dozen model 2 repro cabs.
 

[Xiaou2]

Where did you read that mounting vertically was not a good idea?
From what i read others have found vertically at the corners was more effective,  apparently the wheel vibrations should then feel up and down, like a real car,  rather than side to side.

 Thats what I read.   That the simulation is designed for vertical changes... not side to side changes.

 Im guessing these is confusion on the mounting terms:


 This Orientation fires / vibrates horizontally:
 (Incorrect Mounting for the Simulation application.   With movies, music...etc... it wouldnt matter)
 ___
 I    I
 I    I
 I__I

 This Orientation fires / vibrates vertically:   
 (Correct Mounting orientation for the Simulation)
  ______
 I          I
 ----------

I have a cross mount in the middle for my sear transducers and i didn't want another bar going across just 6inches back from that, as i won't be able to differentiate the two.

 The cross mount should not matter at all.   The feel is transmitted via the actual vibration (Transducer)  location.    Just like a real car,  Childrens Pull Wagon,  Skateboard... etc.   

 Think about the standard Console controllers that have dual motor vibrations...   they are literally inches apart... and yet, the effect of running them at different speeds, creates various effects.   These motors are actually much more limited, compared to a transducer...

 And even more simply and more fully explained:

 If you sat blindfolded, ears covered, and then placed both of your hands on a thick butchers block (only 3 inches apart) ... then had someone drop a marbles on either sides of your hands, as well as in the middle... you would feel where the marbles had hit.   

 The location of the Incident, is what tells you.   

 The solidity of the surface, is what conducts that force clearly... to allow you to feel it.   

 If you tried the same experiment on a rubber mat... you would have a lot more difficult of a time to feel where the marbles landed, how far, and maybe even have difficulty knowing the location.

 Vibrations are much the same as actual audible sound.   If a marble falls in a room... your ears can discern the position of where that sound came from, due to where the soundwaves came from.   However, with soundwaves... its easier, because air is an easy conductor.   If there were no air... then you would have no audible sound.   In a Transducer... its not using sound... its using vibrations.   So the only way it can get those vibrations to you... is via a very rigid material.  A good conductor.    And even then, as said... you will know where that vibration came from,  by its effect and incident location.

 All that said...

 I have heard, that to have a more pronounced and realistic effect... some have placed their transducers further away from their rigs... on outboard frame extensions, extending a foot or more away from the cabinets sides.    This more realistically represents the distance of real tires, away from your central seat location... in the middle.   The vibrational waves thus then take longer to arrive at your location... similar to the timing that it would be for the real event... thus, it feels more like the real thing.

It's worked out quite well in the corners. Ive removed my rubber dampers from the seat mounts today, now that the rig is elevated and i have the four corners.

 Not sure why you would have put those in there... as that absorbs a lot of the vibrations... as rubber is a very bad vibration conductor.

[ant2]

More covering, more cables run

[ant2]

Transducers at the back still weren't strong enough.  You really need to attach them to the panel you want to move directly or you need a very powerful amp.

I've put the rears on hardwood and mounted them behind the seat,  beneath the rear seat runners. I then elevated the wood with rubber to isolate the vibrations. It's 10 times better now



Mounted


I then moved the fronts directly to the front floor.


Sides were then covered.
Monitors mounted, took hours to get the right heights.
Gear shifter mounted, no longer fitted in original place, so had to cut out some of the sides etc,,annoying.
Steering wheel mounted.
Sub relocated to under the chassis,  cables re run..

[ant2]

13 months later, it's finally rebuilt and playable again-  I'm loving it:

[ant2]

Got fzerogx to play smoothly and set up/tubed up rfactor with simvibe and I'm very impressed, the software is well worth while, even if you only have the one transducer!

[Xiaou2]

Good job.

 Initially, the seat rubber dampeners were isolating the vibrations from getting to the seat.

 Now you have the shakers delivering right to the chairs frame.. which makes a lot more sense.   Dense Hardwood was a very good choice for mounting them on to as well.

 The only suggestion I would make, is possibly to add another set of side speakers.. or rebuild the front box..  as the one speaker is blocked quite a bit, by the shifter assembly.

 A canopy top would be nice, as would an enclosed rear.   Would help keep the sounds inside the cabinet,  keep outside sonds from coming in, as well as keep glare out.. and add more immersion.. as it keeps your eyes from seeing your room.

 Thanks for sharing, and enjoy 

 

[ant2]

Thanks.
I was quite upset that when i mounted the shifter that it ended up blocking that left speaker. Had i known i would of moved them all to the right and higher.

But to be honest i am not losing any sound, they were previously mounted even lower and set back, they are 10 times better and the rears sound anazing now, although only really the sims support surround sound.

I previously had side speakers attached to the monitors for 7.1. But i only had about 2 games that utilised them and they got in the way, so i actually removed them. Im not going to remake the front again as it's really not worth the effort, you wouldn't believe how long that took and i am more than happy with the sound now.

If I was going to be picky i might get a more poweful amp for the 2 floor speakers, but i really don't "need" it. My under the seat clarks are powered by a 300watt sub amp and can do all the hardwork.

Yeah I thought about enclosing it, a canopy is a good idea, thing is you have to step up on to the seat to get in now,  so it wont be as practical.  The foam thing is actually quite good with immersion and the monitors are so wide you really don't get any disturbance. Could always turn the lights off and shut the curtains if you wanted to get really in to it
To do:
Im still working on cleaning up hyperspin, adding more games etc etc.
Simvibe tuning needs to be calibrated for my other supported games.
Going to set up a separate hyperspin or just a separate wheel for LAN games.

Once that's all done I'm going to finish off my mario kart rig and all the LAN stuff.

[ant2]

very brief video -

[rvs0002]

Awesome work. Way to stick with it!

[isamu]

Awesome work. Way to stick with it!

What he said^

Excellent job ant2! 

[ant2]

Busy setting up all the Networking stuff, separate emulator installs etc.  See the mario kart rig thread.

Hopefully this may help someone in the future.
Got an eyefinity set up, one of the monitors connects to the display port via Sapphire 44000-02-40R Active Display Port adapter.
Today the screen randomly shut off, amd catalyst still detects something plugged in, but cannot detect the type or resolution, so comes up with a warning.

After a lot of googling and messing around to make sure the monitor or cable hadn't died, apparently these adapter can just "break" and result in this exact behaviour.
Bought the adapter 4 years ago, but it hasn't had heavy use, seems like this is about the age they die.
Just ordered a new one, see how it goes.

[ant2]

I've swapped out the dayton amp for 3x lepai lp168ha amps.

I am really impressed with these cheap chinese amps, i am using them for simvibe so i have just wired them to the full range channels,  but it does have a 1x mono output with a variable cross over.

I hooked up my 300watt car sub to this tiny amp and it goes very loud, louder than you'd ever need for a single room.

These amps have loads of power to drive my 50watt 8ohm transducers. The gain doesn't need to be much over half to have them vibrating at the perfect level.

Took a long time researching amps, so hopefully this will be of some help to others.
The other amp on the short list was a Smal sa 98e, they look to be better made,but these are over twice the price.