Questions about my build

[sephiro]

Hey, I am new around here and was wondering if anyone had any advice on a couple things...
I am building a 4 player cabinet and I am trying to decide how many buttons each player should have and how big of a CRT I should use (Model suggestions are welcome as well).  I have seen configurations where the first and second player have 6 plus the start and coin buttons and the 3rd and 4th players have 4 plus start and coin.  This is kinda where i am thinking of heading but some examples of games i will be playing on this are:
Fighting games (ie. Street Fighter/Tekken/Darkstalkers etc.)
Scrolling Fighters (ie. Final Fight, Battletoads, x-men, simpsons)
Shmups (ie. Metal Slug, Space invaders, Ikari Warriors, and possibly Rail shooters if I get a gun)
Plus a few classics like Pac-man
I will also be emulating NES, SNES, Genesis, and maybe a couple handheld consoles like Game Boy or Game gear, but nothing really newer than that.
Also as a final thought I was thinking of using the ipac 4 for the controller but didnt know if there were any other/better 4 player options.  Thanks in advance for any help!

[BadMouth]

Been covered ad nauseum, but to make sure you don't start down the wrong path:

No standard MAME arcade game uses more than 6 buttons.
Some people add a 7th, so they can have the Neo Geo 4 in a row/properly placed Mortal Kombat 3 run button.
For the Neo Geo games, I've found that I prefer to use my thumb to hit the first button in the second row rather than having 4 buttons in a row.
By default, MAME assumes you have the following layout.
123
456
Lay out your buttons like that and most games will be mapped correctly by default.
I'm telling you this because some younger builders like putting 123 on the bottom. 
You can do that, but you'll end up having to remap all the games that require more than 3 buttons.

Only two 4-player arcade games in MAME use more than 3 buttons per player.  Those are the (2?) Dungeons and Dragons games and they use 4.
Guilty Gear Isuka on Demul emulator uses 5, but the game is generally considered the worst of the franchise.

Player 3 and 4 joysticks should be mounted square and not angled.  You can angle the buttons so the player stands at an angle, but keep the joystick oriented the same way as player 1 and 2.  Look at where the arrows point on original 4 player arcade machines and search the forum for "angled joysticks" for further explanation.


If using a CRT, I'd go with a 25-29" model.  Bigger if building a showcase cab.

You didn't mention whether it would be an arcade monitor or television.
For TV:
If in Europe, look for one with a SCART input.
If in the Americas, look for one with a component input.
(component is three RCA connectors - green, blue, red.  COMPOSITE is the single yellow connector.  S-video is better than composite, but not as good as component)
You might have to use an older video card or an HDMI to composite converter since most modern video cards don't have these as output options.

The ipac 4 is a great input device.  I'd recommend reprogramming the first four MAME default player 1 buttons to plain letter keys though.
I'm talking about reprogramming the ipac, not remapping them in MAME.
Do this before setting up your controls in MAME, then just map the first four Player 1 buttons in MAME "for all games".
It will save you the trouble keys like ALT and CTRL will cause on other emulators.

For PC games like Super Street Fighter IV and Mortal Kombat Komplete you can create virtual xbox360 controllers using the files stickied in the software forum.
The ipac will work fine with them.

[Vigo]

If you can get a crt that is in the upper 20's in inch size, like a 27", it will be a great fit for a 4 player cab.

[sephiro]

Been covered ad nauseum, but to make sure you don't start down the wrong path:

No standard MAME arcade game uses more than 6 buttons.
Some people add a 7th, so they can have the Neo Geo 4 in a row/properly placed Mortal Kombat 3 run button.
For the Neo Geo games, I've found that I prefer to use my thumb to hit the first button in the second row rather than having 4 buttons in a row.
By default, MAME assumes you have the following layout.
123
456
Lay out your buttons like that and most games will be mapped correctly by default.
I'm telling you this because some younger builders like putting 123 on the bottom. 
You can do that, but you'll end up having to remap all the games that require more than 3 buttons.

Only two 4-player arcade games in MAME use more than 3 buttons per player.  Those are the (2?) Dungeons and Dragons games and they use 4.
Guilty Gear Isuka on Demul emulator uses 5, but the game is generally considered the worst of the franchise.

Player 3 and 4 joysticks should be mounted square and not angled.  You can angle the buttons so the player stands at an angle, but keep the joystick oriented the same way as player 1 and 2.  Look at where the arrows point on original 4 player arcade machines and search the forum for "angled joysticks" for further explanation.


If using a CRT, I'd go with a 25-29" model.  Bigger if building a showcase cab.

You didn't mention whether it would be an arcade monitor or television.
For TV:
If in Europe, look for one with a SCART input.
If in the Americas, look for one with a component input.
(component is three RCA connectors - green, blue, red.  COMPOSITE is the single yellow connector.  S-video is better than composite, but not as good as component)
You might have to use an older video card or an HDMI to composite converter since most modern video cards don't have these as output options.

The ipac 4 is a great input device.  I'd recommend reprogramming the first four MAME default player 1 buttons to plain letter keys though.
I'm talking about reprogramming the ipac, not remapping them in MAME.
Do this before setting up your controls in MAME, then just map the first four Player 1 buttons in MAME "for all games".
It will save you the trouble keys like ALT and CTRL will cause on other emulators.

For PC games like Super Street Fighter IV and Mortal Kombat Komplete you can create virtual xbox360 controllers using the files stickied in the software forum.
The ipac will work fine with them.

Thanks for the help!  All the info is exactly what I was looking for. 
I would be using a US TV (Probably Sony WEGA KD-27FS170) since they can be picked up cheaper and easier than an arcade monitor I think.  If I get a TV with component input and my video card has S-video would it be better for me to just use S-video or to get a converter to go from component to vga/dvi?
Do you guys have a source for the ipac on here?  I know obviously ultimarc has them but I didnt know if they are the best source. 
Also is there a standard or template available for spacing of the buttons/joysticks?
Lastly, I was thinking about adding a removable component system for extra peripherals.  Basically i would love to have Trackball, Wheel, and Light Guns that could be attached when needed but wouldnt be cluttering it up when they arent used (Which will probably be 90% of the games).  Has this been done at all or would it be feasible?

Sorry for all the questions and if any/all have been answered previously.  Once again the help is appreciated!

[BadMouth]

If the TV has a DVI input, use that. (EDIT: the CRT HDTV Sony's will only display a 16:9 image in the middle of the 4:3 screen if using the DVI input, so on second thought, you probably don't want to use that.  I know because I had a 36" one)
If the TV has component input and your video card has S-video, there should be a component pigtail adapter for your video card.  (In the video card software you'll have to set it to output the proper component signal instead of s-video)


I used S-Video for years because I had Act Labs S-Video light guns.
It's not too bad, but the text is clearer and easier to read over component.
FYI, the Act Labs guns won't work on the Sony Wega because it has a bunch of post processing stuff built in that throws the guns off.


From what I've read on the boards, Ultimarc's international shipping is pretty quick.
But if you want to order an Ipac from someone in the US, I'd go with focusattack.
http://www.focusattack.com/ultimarc-ipac-4-4-player-usb-ps2-pushbutton-and-joystick-interface-pcb/
You could also get it from divemaster at arcadeemulator.net, but he's a one man operation, it's a side job, and he only ships once a week, so don't expect super fast shipping.
I've got no complaints in my dealings with him.

Button Spacing:http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html

Detachable panels have been done.
Use the search function of the forum.

[harveybirdman]

Dude....

Don't do a 4 player panel with modular control support for your first build.

Don't take the cop out excuse of "I only have room for one cab so it must do everything"

Make something beautiful not something merely barely functional.

[BadMouth]

A comment on the slagcoin site.....

It's an awesome resource, but I'm going to disagree with the author about the standard six button street fighter layout being a horrible fit for the human hand.

I've had both.  I currently use an arched layout with Japanese convex buttons because I wanted something more modern with this build.
The concave shape gives you tactile feedback on where your fingers are.  I miss this with the convex buttons and look at the controls to reset my hands more often.
As far as the straight line being a problem goes, we type just fine on keyboards keys that are in straight lines.

[sephiro]

If the TV has a DVI input, use that. (EDIT: the CRT HDTV Sony's will only display a 16:9 image in the middle of the 4:3 screen if using the DVI input, so on second thought, you probably don't want to use that.  I know because I had a 36" one)
If the TV has component input and your video card has S-video, there should be a component pigtail adapter for your video card.  (In the video card software you'll have to set it to output the proper component signal instead of s-video)


I used S-Video for years because I had Act Labs S-Video light guns.
It's not too bad, but the text is clearer and easier to read over component.
FYI, the Act Labs guns won't work on the Sony Wega because it has a bunch of post processing stuff built in that throws the guns off.


From what I've read on the boards, Ultimarc's international shipping is pretty quick.
But if you want to order an Ipac from someone in the US, I'd go with focusattack.
http://www.focusattack.com/ultimarc-ipac-4-4-player-usb-ps2-pushbutton-and-joystick-interface-pcb/
You could also get it from divemaster at arcadeemulator.net, but he's a one man operation, it's a side job, and he only ships once a week, so don't expect super fast shipping.
I've got no complaints in my dealings with him.

Button Spacing:http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html

Detachable panels have been done.
Use the search function of the forum.

Thanks again for the info BadMouth!  I guess ill have to give more thought about the button layout but that link is awesome.  Its interesting to me that s-video to component would actually look better than s-video to s-video.  Not sure how that works, but as ive never tried it I will have to take your word on that.   

Ok I am now scared about that TV because I would like to be able to use light guns although the ones i have in mind are the ones for the old consoles like nintendo/SNES.  I would love to figure out a way to implement the actual time crisis guns/pedals but I am not 100% sure I could find legit ones for sale for a reasonable price not to mention connecting/programming them to work on mame.  Do you know what exactly in them causes the issues so I can check whichever model i find to make sure it doesnt have it?  From reading around here it seemed like people really liked the wega tv's for these, but maybe those were all outdated posts or they didnt use the light guns...

Dude....

Don't do a 4 player panel with modular control support for your first build.

Don't take the cop out excuse of "I only have room for one cab so it must do everything"

Make something beautiful not something merely barely functional.

Thanks for the concern on this.  I have definitely been down that road.  I am not planning on doing the initial build with modular.  I was just looking for some info on if it had been done and how.  Unfortunately the 4 player part is kinda a necessity with all the kids.  I mean i guess its not completely necessary since I could just make 2 of them play at a time, but its something im not willing to part with.  (Plus all the buttons and joysticks have already been ordered.)

If all goes well with the first build I will be either modifying or making a new one in time with modular components and things like LED dynamic Marquee.   

[sephiro]

A comment on the slagcoin site.....

It's an awesome resource, but I'm going to disagree with the author about the standard six button street fighter layout being a horrible fit for the human hand.

I've had both.  I currently use an arched layout with Japanese convex buttons because I wanted something more modern with this build.
The concave shape gives you tactile feedback on where your fingers are.  I miss this with the convex buttons and look at the controls to reset my hands more often.
As far as the straight line being a problem goes, we type just fine on keyboards keys that are in straight lines.

Makes sense... Time to head to the arcade and check preference. Oh darn!

[BadMouth]

Its interesting to me that s-video to component would actually look better than s-video to s-video.  Not sure how that works, but as ive never tried it I will have to take your word on that.   

You'll notice the s-video output on the video card has more connectors than the four on an s-video cable.
An s-video cable will plug into it and it will work, but that cable isn't utilizing those other pins like the pigtail does.
It may look like an s-video output, but really it's a "any type of analog video" output.

It defaults to s-video, but it doesn't automatically detect what type is connected.
You have to tell the computer in the video card software which type of video signal to put out.
If you connect a composite cable but still have the video card software set to output s-video it's not going to work.

[BadMouth]

On the light guns, search the forums.
It's complicated.

[sephiro]

Its interesting to me that s-video to component would actually look better than s-video to s-video.  Not sure how that works, but as ive never tried it I will have to take your word on that.   

You'll notice the s-video output on the video card has more connectors than the four on an s-video cable.
An s-video cable will plug into it and it will work, but that cable isn't utilizing those other pins like the pigtail does.
It may look like an s-video output, but really it's a "any type of analog video" output.

It defaults to s-video, but it doesn't automatically detect what type is connected.
You have to tell the computer in the video card software which type of video signal to put out.
If you connect a composite cable but still have the video card software set to output s-video it's not going to work.

That makes more sense... Thanks!

On the light guns, search the forums.
It's complicated.

Will do.

[Aceldamor]

You could always do a 2p build and have inputs for 2 controllers to make it 4p when needed. I think harvey has mentioned that in more than a few threads 

[harveybirdman]

harveybirdman gotta harveybirdman