Some control design advice.

[DisFanJen]

Ok, so I've tentatively decided on the following design for my controls (please excuse the crude picture):



But now I'm wondering if I should have a dedicated pause button, and I'm thinking a button to tell the unit to rotate the screen orientation (the controls are to be movable to the ends or along one edge, so good for Galaxian and Mortal Kombat).

So, should I go with more buttons or just have some of the standard ones do different functions in different modes, taking into consideration that I am at the maximum number of buttons the controller can handle so would have to get a second one to add more?

[BadMouth]

1. A trackball isn't going to fit there.  Check out how big the housings are.

2. Don't put the buttons in that pattern.  Either go with straight or arched.  I did the arched because I wanted a more modern looking cab, but I kinda miss concave buttons in a plain Street Fighter layout.

3.  Don't put the PC power button on the control panel.  Someone will mess stuff up....I guarantee it.

4.  I always have a dedicated ESC button to exit games.  Add a pause if you wish.  I wouldn't add any other admin buttons.

5.  You don't need 8 buttons per player unless you plan to play more modern PC games that require that many.
     Except for oddball things like Mahjong, no game in MAME requires more than 6.
     All the current PC fighting games can also be played with 6.  The extra 2 just post combos of the others.
     Some consoles had more than that, but I can't keep the functions of that many buttons straight. (maybe you can)

6. I'd do two sets of pinball buttons if you have the inputs available.  Use the second set for nudge.  Nudging the table is an integral part of playing.

[PL1]

If you intend to include pinball flippers, you will need a plunger/ball launch button in addition to the optional but highly recommended left, right, and up nudge buttons.

The one major design concern is how the connector on the back of the control panel will connect to the cabinet.

Are you planning on using connectors like the ones in a removable HDD tray?   




Scott

[DisFanJen]

1. A trackball isn't going to fit there.  Check out how bit the housings are.

Hi,

I'll look at the rest of your recommendations in a sec I just wanted to let you know that the trackball I have is actually has quite a small footprint for it's size,  but more importantly the drawing is very not to scale.  lol!

[DisFanJen]

2. Don't put the buttons in that pattern.  Either go with straight or arched.  I did the arched because I wanted a more modern looking cab, but I kinda miss concave buttons in a plain Street Fighter layout.

I put them in that config mainly for the look as I didn't want them straight.  I'll try a concave look and see how that works.

3.  Don't put the PC power button on the control panel.  Someone will mess stuff up....I guarantee it.

Lol!  I sort of had that in that back of my mind, you just confirmed it for me.  I'll find somewhere on the main unit to put it.

4.  I always have a dedicated ESC button to exit games.  Add a pause if you wish.  I wouldn't add any other admin buttons.

I really need a screen rotate option, whether that's mapped to one of the standard game buttons or a dedicated button I don't know but I really need it.

5.  You don't need 8 buttons per player unless you plan to play more modern PC games that require that many.
     Except for oddball things like Mahjong, no game in MAME requires more than 6.
     All the current PC fighting games can also be played with 6.  The extra 2 just post combos of the others.
     Some consoles had more than that, but I can't keep the functions of that many buttons straight. (maybe you can)

I do intend to play modern PC games which is why I went with a set of 8 buttons just in case (I'm using Steam Big Picture as my front-end and will be loading games from Steam, Origin, and GOG).  Worst case scenario they hardly get used.

6. I'd do two sets of pinball buttons if you have the inputs available.  Use the second set for nudge.  Nudging the table is an integral part of playing.

I never thought of that, I guess because nudging pinball tables was the kiss of death for me back in the day so I stopped doing it.

I think based on this info that the best bet will be to get a second control to USB unit  and each player has access to double the theoretical buttons.  More than enough for the job.  It'l depend on whether the controller registers as one or two joysticks for JoyToKey though.

Thanks for the info.

[DisFanJen]

If you intend to include pinball flippers, you will need a plunger/ball launch button in addition to the optional but highly recommended left, right, and up nudge buttons.

The one major design concern is how the connector on the back of the control panel will connect to the cabinet.

Are you planning on using connectors like the ones in a removable HDD tray?   




Scott

It's the basic idea but with lockable tabs so it can't easily come lose. Something like a classic PC Centronics interface.

This is my first build but I'm a experienced IT tech so working out a connector won't be an issue.

However If I go down the route of one controller per player I could use something much smaller.

[BadMouth]

When you say you need a rotation button, does the monitor physically rotate?  (as in motorized)

If you're rotating windows, there's probably a better way.  You shouldn't need to rotate the desktop.

[DisFanJen]

When you say you need a rotation button, does the monitor physically rotate?  (as in motorized)

If you're rotating windows, there's probably a better way.  You shouldn't need to rotate the desktop.

This unit is intended to be used in both orientations with the controls movable to either end or along one edge.  I need the screen (And as such, the front end) to switch orientation trough software depending where you have the controls.  the actual method of changing the orientation is easy, I just need a button to do it.

I realise this is a little unconventional but it works for the design I want to do.

[DisFanJen]

OK, after some 'back of a cigarette packet' calculations here's a mock up in a piece of ply I had lying around.



As you can see I took BadMouth's advice and went for the arched look to the buttons.

I'm going to get a second controller so I can have extra buttons (as each controller emulates 2 joysticks) and the connector is simplified as I just plug into a USB plug.

The spacing for the trackball isn't as much as I'd like but the board is sized for the maximum space I have so it is was it is. (oh, and it's obviously too deep in the wood but like I said it's just a mock up)

I'm going to add an exit button, a pause button and the screen orientation button to the top but I don't have those yet.

I still plan to put the pinball paddle buttons one the side, and on the front I'm going to put a yellow square add credit button and rather than a launch ball button for pinball games I'm looking at adding a simulated plunger (found a thread on it and it doesn't look too difficult).

Not sure what to do about the 'nudge buttons' suggestions?

[n3wt0n]

It looks like a good start to me. I have some suggestions though.

In my opinion the 8 buttons look too far apart and losing the major gaps between buttons will free up some more open space to move the joystick and trackball to the right a bit.  Between rounds it is nice to have somewhere you can rest your left hand. I can't tell by the pic but can you rest your left hand on the panel between the joystick and the left edge of the panel? If so, then you probably have enough space but from the pic the joystick looks pretty close to the edge. I would also try to keep admin and start buttons out of the way of the trackball so they aren't hit during game play. Move those to the left or right or if you have space to the front of the box. You already mentioned the way the trackball is mounted so I wont talk about it. Other than that I think its pretty decent.

I don't have an example for the nudge controls  but I would consider trying smaller buttons ahead of the left and right flipper buttons on your test panel to see if that could work.

Good luck!

[BadMouth]

+1 on the buttons being too far apart.

For the nudge buttons, I'd just put an extra set of the same buttons you're already using for the flippers.
I never did find a good solution for nudge forward, but I suck at pinball anyway.

I think plungers are cool, but it seems a lot of people who have spent a ton of money building a dedicated virtual pinball machine end up using a button.
I'm guessing it's because they couldn't get the plunger to translate well into the emulated game.
A lot of them end up just using a big "Launch Ball" button.  Someone who has actually built one might shed some more light on that.

[harveybirdman]

What no Tron stick?

Since the whole point of the arcade playing furniture you're building is to be able to pull out the controller and play from either side of the table, why can't you build separate panels and only pull out the one you need for whatever you're playing?  One for the trackball, one for the joystick and too many buttons, etc.

I mean what you are building isn't very visually appealing and it looks like a pain to use the trackball and would be akin to playing with player 1's stick and player 2's buttons.

[DisFanJen]

  In my opinion the 8 buttons look too far apart...

  +1 on the buttons being too far apart.

I eyeballed this based on pics of other people's cabinets.  What would you guys suggest for spacing, about half the current space between buttons?  At the moment I can get my index finger between each button, just.

  ...losing the major gaps between buttons will free up some more open space to move the joystick and trackball to the right a bit.  Between rounds it is nice to have somewhere you can rest your left hand. I can't tell by the pic but can you rest your left hand on the panel between the joystick and the left edge of the panel? If so, then you probably have enough space but from the pic the joystick looks pretty close to the edge.

It is a bit close to the left edge I must admit but there is enough room to rest below the joystick  Once I do mk2 and move the buttons I'll try and get a bit more space on the left, with any luck I'll be able to move the joystick down a tad.

I would also try to keep admin and start buttons out of the way of the trackball so they aren't hit during game play. Move those to the left or right or if you have space to the front of the box. You already mentioned the way the trackball is mounted so I wont talk about it. Other than that I think its pretty decent.

Hmm, I was thinking of positioning player 1 and pause next to each other roughtly where they are now, and putting the exit and screen rotate button out of the way in a corner.

  I don't have an example for the nudge controls  but I would consider trying smaller buttons ahead of the left and right flipper buttons on your test panel to see if that could work.

  For the nudge buttons, I'd just put an extra set of the same buttons you're already using for the flippers.

  I never did find a good solution for nudge forward, but I suck at pinball anyway.

I'm thinking a little bit of both of you suggestions, another set of buttons in front of the paddles, same size but different colour.

  I think plungers are cool, but it seems a lot of people who have spent a ton of money building a dedicated virtual pinball machine end up using a button.

I looked at a thread on the VP forums and videos on youtube and it actually is pretty easy.  The plunger just actuates a normally closed micro switch, meaning the plunger in the resting position holds the button open, and it's closed when it's pulled.  it's not a perfect analog but it just looks so much fun!

What no Tron stick?

Nope, thought about it but the finances don't stretch to it right now.

Since the whole point of the arcade playing furniture you're building is to be able to pull out the controller and play from either side of the table, why can't you build separate panels and only pull out the one you need for whatever you're playing?  One for the trackball, one for the joystick and too many buttons, etc.

The controllers need to live inside the unit when not playing and the space is limited.

I mean what you are building isn't very visually appealing and it looks like a pain to use the trackball and would be akin to playing with player 1's stick and player 2's buttons.

Actually I'm a leftie and the layout with the trackball to the left of the buttons is perfect for me.  It would probably look a little nicer if it wasn't as cluttered , but I think it's the best layout for what I need.

Of course the best bit is that based on our current thoughts for mounting the unit it will be totally removable, so if I decide I don't like the layout I can rebuild as long as I stay in the same footprint.

[BadMouth]

I eyeballed this based on pics of other people's cabinets.  What would you guys suggest for spacing, about half the current space between buttons?  At the moment I can get my index finger between each button, just.

http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html

Personally I have them so close that the nuts on the back are just touching each other.
It keeps them evenly spaced even if the holes I drilled aren't. 

[DisFanJen]

I eyeballed this based on pics of other people's cabinets.  What would you guys suggest for spacing, about half the current space between buttons?  At the moment I can get my index finger between each button, just.

http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html

Personally I have them so close that the nuts on the back are just touching each other.
It keeps them evenly spaced even if the holes I drilled aren't. 

Thanks, that link is awesomely useful. 

[geeteoh]

Which hand do you want to use the trackball with? I would have problems using this layout as I would have to cross my arms to press a button during a mame trackball game. Maybe I'm the only one in this camp.

[yamatetsu]

Actually I'm a leftie and the layout with the trackball to the left of the buttons is perfect for me.

[DisFanJen]

Which hand do you want to use the trackball with? I would have problems using this layout as I would have to cross my arms to press a button during a mame trackball game. Maybe I'm the only one in this camp.

Like I said I'm a leftie so trackball on the left is perfect for me as I'm used to using a mouse in my left hand (though strangely I don't reverse what te mouse buttons do, I guess it's because I can use anyone's PC by moving the mouse to the left hen just putting it back after).

Now it could be a little awkward for other users but 9 times out of 10 I'll be the person working it so i might as well build it to fit the person who will be using it most.

[DisFanJen]

And another Update:  Here's Mk2:





As you can see the buttons are much closer together.  A 2mm visible gap to be exact.

Standard buttons wouldn't fit for the flipper and nudge buttons so we switched them to Seimitsu PS-14-GN 30mm Screw In Arcade Buttons.  Two black for the flippers and 3 yellow for the nudge.

The three tier design on the side is both for looks and it means that the side buttons are flish with the side of the casing.

The square yellow button is going to be add credit and the 3 white buttons by the player one button will be my 3 admin buttons.  Pause, Exit and Flip Aspect Ratio.

Unfortunately there will be a mk3 as it turns out we mis-calulated the room needed at the front and the front nudge button hits the edge of the trackball base.


Doh!


But I'm hoping that we just need to elongate the front a little bit and that'll be the final design.

So, what do you think, better?

Also what do you think about all red for the buttons?  I liked the row of red and row of blue but my partner likes all red.  However all red means that the player 2 controls will be all blue...

[BadMouth]

I think the primary buttons are too low; not enough room to rest your hand.
I'd move the admin buttons over and move the primary buttons up.

The tiered trackball recess bothers me.  I imagine myself scraping my hand on the edges of it.


That's my $.02

[DisFanJen]

I think the primary buttons are too low; not enough room to rest your hand.
I'd move the admin buttons over and move the primary buttons up.

Hmm, I never noticed that.  After I add the extra length for the nudge button I'll do some tests.

The tiered trackball recess bothers me.  I imagine myself scraping my hand on the edges of it.

The ridge on the track ball housing actually fits flush with the lower tier so theres only one step really and I did some fairly hefty test runs with it and I never caught on it.  I can see your point though, if it does become a problem I could throw a 45 degree chamfer or a rounded edge to ease it off.

[n3wt0n]

I like it for the most part. I do agree that the 8 buttons may be a bit low but the spacing of everything seems much better now. I would have to play that trackball to believe that it isn't awkward mounted the way you did it but I think the recessed buttons on the sides for pinball look pretty sweet done like that.  Personally, I like the idea of all red buttons on one side and all blue for player 2.

[DisFanJen]

I like it for the most part. I do agree that the 8 buttons may be a bit low but the spacing of everything seems much better now.

Thanks.  I think it looks a lot better.

I'm hoping that the extra space I'm going to add to accommodate the nudge button will give enough extra space for the hand underneath the buttons as I'm a bit tight on space if they are going to hide in the cabinet when not in use.  So it may come down to a compromise.

I would have to play that trackball to believe that it isn't awkward mounted the way you did it...

And it may turn out to not be as good as it seems to me right now but all I can say at this point is that is feels really easy to use to me.  Maybe it's more of the that leftyness making it different for me.

...but I think the recessed buttons on the sides for pinball look pretty sweet done like that.

That was initially my partner's idea but I love it!

Personally, I like the idea of all red buttons on one side and all blue for player 2.

Noted.  I think Stacey get's her way on this one.

[DisFanJen]

Quick Update:

Here's the top of Mk 3:



We've made some more room at the bottom of the buttons and the t-ball (still a bit of a compromise but the best we could do) and as we are keeping the main part of the unit just looking like a coffee table we decided to leave the control unit in wood, so used the laser to etch some artwork onto it.

Some of the designs aren't prefect due to converting a raster image to a vector one for the laser but I actually like some of the imperfections, don't know why, I just do.

Anyhoo, unless we hit an major problems with this build up, this is probably going to be the last iteration of the design so I'd like to say thanks again to everyone for their help.

If you want to follow the rest of the build it will be over here:

Stealth cocktail style cabinet - A Noobs first build