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Author Topic: 5v LED Power Option  (Read 6501 times)

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mvolke1

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5v LED Power Option
« on: April 17, 2015, 07:14:05 pm »
So, on my last arcade I used an old 12v adapter I had kicking around to power my buttons. I want to do it again this time, but I'm looking at 5v buttons.

I want to power 14 regular 5v buttons, plus two NovaGem 5v buttons. Would this 5v 2ma adapter work to power them? I'm going to clip the power adapter and daisy chain the buttons to it.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2015, 10:57:30 pm by mvolke1 »
I'm with stupid.

Slippyblade

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2015, 07:31:24 pm »
I'm assuming you mean 2A, not 2mA...

The voltage on the LED's isn't as important as the current draw.  Find out what the draw is per LED and simply total them up.  If it's more than the supply - no good.

RandyT

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2015, 11:55:10 am »
The voltage on the LED's isn't as important as the current draw.  Find out what the draw is per LED and simply total them up.  If it's more than the supply - no good.

Yes and no.  Some of these supplies, the cheap ones in particular, aren't very well regulated.  The voltage and current are related with LEDs, and any LED specified for use with 5vDC will likely already have a current limiting resistor in place to make it operate safely at that voltage.  If the supply is putting out more than the indicated 5vDC, then the LED will in turn, receive more current than it should, and that will negatively affect the life of the LED.

The current ratings on cheap supplies are also often exaggerated.  Taxing these right to point where they burn up (which is probably how they come to the rating they print on the units) will likely mean that regulation will be further impaired.  Never believe what is printed on these things.  To be safe, you'll want a power supply which is well regulated at the specified voltage, and probably rated for at least 50% more than the current it is expected to supply.

MydknyteStyrm

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2015, 03:11:35 pm »
Which is the best option for power supply? I'm planning on using two PACLEDs to power 128 RGB lights, and not sure my computer can power them all in conjunction with everything else plugged in.


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RandyT

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2015, 03:25:16 pm »
Which is the best option for power supply? I'm planning on using two PACLEDs to power 128 RGB lights, and not sure my computer can power them all in conjunction with everything else plugged in.

You are going to need a good size supply for that many RGB's.  I wouldn't use one properly rated for less than 10 amps.

MydknyteStyrm

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2015, 03:26:33 pm »
Any particular brand recommended?


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johnrt

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2015, 03:37:06 pm »
The voltage on the LED's isn't as important as the current draw.  Find out what the draw is per LED and simply total them up.  If it's more than the supply - no good.
No!

The LED's votage is the most important. Forget the current. 2 Amps is MORE than enough to power all the LEDS you can fill your CP with! ONE LED draws typically 20mA. It is NOT the power supply that pushes the current through the LED's. The LED's are DRAWING current from the PSU. The current a LED draws depends on the voltage it's being given. If you give the LED too much voltage it DRAWS more current from the PSU and vice versa. But the LED's operates between limited voltages. Most LEDs have a voltage drop between 2-3 volts. White ones are usually higher, around 3.5 volts. But with resistors in serial with the LED('s), you can operate them with higher voltages. Even the cheap white LED strips you buy from ebay that operates on 12 volts usually uses groups of 3 LED's in serial (3 x 3,5 = 10,5V) + an additional resistor. And these three LED's draws 20mA in TOTAL (because they are connected in serial).

RandyT

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2015, 04:30:42 pm »

The LED's votage is the most important. Forget the current. 2 Amps is MORE than enough to power all the LEDS you can fill your CP with! ONE LED draws typically 20mA. It is NOT the power supply that pushes the current through the LED's. The LED's are DRAWING current from the PSU. The current a LED draws depends on the voltage it's being given. If you give the LED too much voltage it DRAWS more current from the PSU and vice versa. But the LED's operates between limited voltages. Most LEDs have a voltage drop between 2-3 volts. White ones are usually higher, around 3.5 volts. But with resistors in serial with the LED('s), you can operate them with higher voltages. Even the cheap white LED strips you buy from ebay that operates on 12 volts usually uses groups of 3 LED's in serial (3 x 3,5 = 10,5V) + an additional resistor. And these three LED's draws 20mA in TOTAL (because they are connected in serial).

The OP just indicated intent to use 128 RGBs (60ma each when all three elements are lit) which comes out to 7.68 amps.  The outputs on his controllers are constant current (not by resistors) set to 20ma per element.  Trying to run all of those on a 2 amp supply will cause something to smoke in short order.  Slippyblade was entirely correct in his statement that the total of the load (current required) must be less (significantly less in some cases) than the rating on the supply. 

The methods used in LED strips are not applicable in this situation, where individual control of each LED is desired.  This is why even smaller visual displays, made from smart LED strips, require a crazy amount of current, usually delivered through heavy gauge wire connected to multiple power supplies.

Properly regulated voltage and sufficient current availability are both very important factors when selecting a power supply.

Any particular brand recommended?

No.  The power supplies on our store (more coming in a few days) will have either 15 or 16amp stamped on the 5vDC output.  I have not tested them at full load, so the rating is likely optimistic.  Given that you only need about half of the stated current availability, they are probably a safe bet.  They also have a control for fine tuning the 5vDC voltage output, so that's a good feature.  My best advice is to pick one which suits your needs and one which has a control to trim the output of the supply to the voltage you are looking for.  Your controllers may have other requirements I am not privy to, so you should direct those questions to the manufacturer.  You probably have a little more wiggle room with the voltage, as those controllers use constant current outputs.  But it's better to be able to get the voltage as close as possible to what is needed, to avoid creating more heat in the other components than necessary.

johnrt

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2015, 05:28:18 pm »
The OP just indicated intent to use 128 RGBs (60ma each when all three elements are lit) which comes out to 7.68 amps.

128 RGBs? Show me the math.

Quote from: mvolke1
I want to power 14 regular 5v buttons, plus two NovaGem 5v buttons.

MydknyteStyrm

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2015, 05:30:24 pm »
I have 40 Ultimarc Ultralux buttons with RGB, running off of two PACLed64.  Each RGB has four cables. So I misspoke, I will have 40 actually RGB Lights but technically 120 bulbs


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yotsuya

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2015, 06:29:44 pm »
The OP just indicated intent to use 128 RGBs (60ma each when all three elements are lit) which comes out to 7.68 amps.

128 RGBs? Show me the math.


Which is the best option for power supply? I'm planning on using two PACLEDs to power 128 RGB lights, and not sure my computer can power them all in conjunction with everything else plugged in.


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Though he meant 120, I was going off this quote as well.
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johnrt

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2015, 06:38:30 pm »
Well, the OP wanted to power 14 buttons. To power 120 RGB LEDs individually is a completely different story! (Ohh... the wiring...)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 06:41:40 pm by johnrt »

MydknyteStyrm

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2015, 06:39:54 pm »
Sorry I didn't mean to hijack the OP thread. I was just curious about additional power supply


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johnrt

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2015, 06:48:36 pm »
But really? 40 buttons? What are you building?

MydknyteStyrm

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2015, 06:51:46 pm »
4 player cp with admin buttons, pinball, and other goodies. I started a thread on Project Announcements called the MCP


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RandyT

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2015, 07:05:54 pm »
Well, the OP wanted to power 14 buttons. To power 120 RGB LEDs individually is a completely different story! (Ohh... the wiring...)

OP="Other Poster"?  :lol  My bad.  Should have scrolled back to the top.  Was going on the "128 RGB LEDs" comment.   2 amp still isn't enough for 40 RGB LEDs, but would probably cover the 14 mono LED's and NovaGemCDRs the OP mentioned.  But again, the 5v should be very close to accurate, and a common complaint with these cheap adapters is that they are considerably higher than they should be.  Always test a supply with a meter to make sure it's doing what's expected.


johnrt

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2015, 07:10:05 pm »
Then you can power them from the PC PSU. Each button uses Pmax = U x I = 5 x 0.02 x 3 = 0.3 Watts. 40 buttons uses 0.3 x 40 = 12Watts. When everything is lit it draws 2.4 Amps from the PSU. That can easily be powered from the PC PSU.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 07:16:39 pm by johnrt »

RandyT

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2015, 07:19:34 pm »
The PC power supply is usually the best option, unless it's already overburdened by other system peripherals.  Much better power regulation than the "wall wart" supplies.  Sometimes it's not the simplest option (remote panel, etc.) but it's always my first choice, even if it requires running extra power wires.

johnrt

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2015, 07:38:18 pm »
Well if he is 12 Watts from using maximum power from let's say a 500 W PSU, then he needs a bigger PSU anyway.


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RandyT

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2015, 08:12:01 pm »
Well if he is 12 Watts from using maximum power from let's say a 500 W PSU, then he needs a bigger PSU anyway.

You'd be surprised at how many of those "mini" desktop systems end up in a cabinet with more stuff hanging off their 160w supplies than probably should.   12watts from the 5v rail could make quite a difference with these systems.

matsadona

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2015, 03:48:12 am »
Well, there is a slight difference with 40 buttons rather than 128  ::)

I can only second what others already stated. A typical current for a standard LED is 20mA (0,02A). Probably you could go as low as 10 to 15mA and they will still be very bright. Most arcade games are played at night in a dark room anyway, so why do you want to get blinded by the CP instead of enjoying the on screen action? :)

The maths indicates the maximum current when all LED's are full RGB at the same time (40 * 3 * 0,02 = 2,4). How often will this be the situation in reality? So, if you want white light on a regular basis there are better options than going with RGB LED's.
I guess most PC PSU's in MAME cabinets have an amp or two extra.

By the way, doesn't the LED controllers use PWM for dimming? That would reduce the wattage also...

Building, collecting and playing arcade machines :)

MydknyteStyrm

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2015, 08:00:59 am »
I have a Corsair CX750M power supply in my rig now. Here are the specs http://www.corsair.com/en-us/cx-series-cx750m-modular-atx-power-supply-750-watt-80-plus-bronze-certified-modular-psu

The plan is to power the following:
40 Ultralux buttons with RGB (120 bulbs)
Ultimarc U-Trak with RGB
TurboTwist Spinner
2 Aimtrak guns
Powered USB hub
4 200mm fans (for entire cabinet)
4 LEDs on four player coin door
Mayflash dolphin bar
2 Xbox wired controllers
3 internal HDD
1 external WD Hard drive
Keyboard
Razer Tron mouse

Will my existing power supply do the trick, or should I play safe and get another power supply strictly for the LEDs?

johnrt

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2015, 09:58:44 am »
I have a Corsair CX750M power supply in my rig now. Here are the specs http://www.corsair.com/en-us/cx-series-cx750m-modular-atx-power-supply-750-watt-80-plus-bronze-certified-modular-psu

The plan is to power the following:
40 Ultralux buttons with RGB (120 bulbs)
Ultimarc U-Trak with RGB
TurboTwist Spinner
2 Aimtrak guns
Powered USB hub
4 200mm fans (for entire cabinet)
4 LEDs on four player coin door
Mayflash dolphin bar
2 Xbox wired controllers
3 internal HDD
1 external WD Hard drive
Keyboard
Razer Tron mouse

Will my existing power supply do the trick, or should I play safe and get another power supply strictly for the LEDs?
With a 750W PSU: No problem!

MydknyteStyrm

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2015, 05:27:40 pm »
Wonderful! Thanks for the information!


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matsadona

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2015, 02:59:10 am »
Hm... the one thing that use the most power is the graphics card - so what type/model you are having might change the situation. The type of motherboard and CPU also of course.

What is the purpose of all those drives?
Building, collecting and playing arcade machines :)

MydknyteStyrm

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2015, 07:29:43 am »
I have a NVidia GeForce650Ti, the motherboard is a Asus Z87 with an i5-4670k chip. The drives are holding most of the console isos (GameCube, PS2, etc) as well as some Mame CHDs. At some point I'm getting a 3TB hard drive to just have one instead of three


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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2015, 01:07:42 pm »
Thank you all for the responses.

I am using a Raspberry Pi for my build, so using the PC 5v is not an option.

I used a 12v adapter for my bartop with 12v LEDs and it's worked really well so far. The only thing I needed to do was change the bulbs for the NovaGem buttons, and Randy was able to give me 12v little bulbs instead of LEDs. Still looks good. This time, I wanted to go all 5v so I don't have to modify anything -- and most LEDs are on 5v anyway. The wall wort is my best option, I think. It's easy, too.
I'm with stupid.

mvolke1

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Re: LED Power Question
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2015, 10:55:34 pm »
So I took a shot on this adapter since it was only two bucks and hooked up the NovaGem buttons I got today. I left them on for a while and so far so good. Nothing is hot and the light is as bright as it should be. Just figured I'd pass this along and I'll keep it updated as I add more buttons on. This could be a nice cheap 5v LED power option.
I'm with stupid.