Emulation controller kickstarter....what do you guys think?

[jshel65]

Have you guys seen this device on kickstarter? It looks pretty amazing. What do you guys think? https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/544088930/bliss-box-4-play-one-adapter-for-many-controllers-0

[yotsuya]

Saw it the last time they Kickstarter'ed it. Waiting on the KADE+, myself.

[Generic Eric]

Ya.  I was thinking I heard of Bliss box before.

[jshel65]

I definitely have my eye on the KADE as well but may back both.
This could be the start of a good discussion...
What are the differences between the Bliss Box 4-play and the KADE miniconsole?
 Obviously one supports 4 players while the other supports 1. KADE allows for connection with multiple devices (I believe bliss box is PC, Mac, and PS3 only).

They both seem like great devices but of course financially it would be nice to nail it down to one of the two. What are your guys thoughts?

[horizon]

Not too bad.  58 dollars would get me a USB hub, and the dongles for the controllers I would want to use.  But, I dont have said controllers. 

So why not just use a usb hub and use USB controllers?

Im kind of assuming windows will still lose the device ID when its unplugged, right?

[jshel65]

Not too bad.  58 dollars would get me a USB hub, and the dongles for the controllers I would want to use.  But, I dont have said controllers. 

So why not just use a usb hub and use USB controllers?

Im kind of assuming windows will still lose the device ID when its unplugged, right?

I had the same idea a few months back. The usb controller adapters are a real pain especialy if you are using multiple of them as I was. I got so frustrated with them that I went back to wireless xbox 360 controllers. Windows tends to get them mixed up a lot. Also it would be more expensive to buy all of the usb adapters.

[bootsector]

Bliss Box is really a very cool project! I really think people should contribute and back this kind of initiatives on KS!

As for people wanting to know more about upcoming KADE miniConsole+ adapter:

Outputs to:

- PC, Mac, Linux, PS3, Rasp Pi and anything else able to take an USB HID joypad as input

- Wii/WiiU via Wiimote (it impersonates a Wii Classic Controller when plugged it to the Wiimote)

- WiiU via USB (it impersonates a WiiU GC to USB adapter including rumble support for GC pads being used as input)

- Classic XBOX (it impersonates a Classic XBOX controller)

- PS1/PS2 (it impersonates an analog dualshock when plugged to these consoles or even those ps2 to anything adapters. This makes the miniConsole+ compatible with virtually anything in the market when using PS2 pad adapters: DC, X360, etc...)

- Sega Genesis, NES/SNES, NeoGeo via Multi-Out interface (currently under development and tests).

It accepts the following pads as input:

- NeoGeo (extension cable not required)

- Arcade terminals via either DB15 interface (16 inputs) or expansion port interface (32 inputs)

- Sega Genesis, Sega Master System and Atari 2600 via extension cable

- Sega Saturn via extension cables

- Sega DreamCast via extension cables

- NES via extension cables

- SNES via extension cables

- GC via extension cables

- N64 via extensiom cables

- TG16 via extension cables

- Analog Atari paddles via extension cables

- PS1/PS2 via extension cables

- Others to come (surprisingly we still have some space left on flash!!)

Other cool stuff about it:

- It's DYI friendly: no proprietary connectors or hard to deal/find components: it uses stuff you can find at your closest RadioShack.

- 100% open source and open hardware

- It has a beautiful multi-platform application (for Mac, Windows and Linux) that you can use to configure, update and map buttons for each input accepted by the adapter.

- It has auto detection for output: it impersonates the right device based on the host system and iterface it's connected to

- Plug and play auto detection for the attached input pad with no need to replugging onto the host system

- When using the arcade expansion board, it multiplexes inputs from it along with anything coming from the the connected joypad via DB15 interface into a single output.

- It's super fun because it allows us to make several crazy combos and mixes among inputs and outputs

- It can talk to cheapo 16x2 LCD displays for some fancy stuff

- It's future proof!

"One adapter to rule them all"

[jshel65]

Thanks for the thorough input on the KADE capabilities! Sounds awesome! Any idea when the kickstarter will launch?

[Slippyblade]

Any idea when the kickstarter will launch?

Ok, I thought I was just thick and was missing it.  Couldn't find it on KS and was getting confused.

[SavannahLion]

- It's DYI friendly: no proprietary connectors or hard to deal/find components: it uses stuff you can find at your closest RadioShack.

Good luck with that.... Rat Shack filed for Chapter 11 last month and killed off about 40% of their store locations, the rest may become back room displays in Sprint controlled stores. From what I can tell, once the proceedings are done, the Radio Shack store front will all but disappear from the American landscape. Might as well give people BOM's they can use to order from Digikey or Mouser for what it's worth.

[keilmillerjr]

Yeah. Many radio shacks near me are closed. And the existing ones don't even carry electronic components any more. They are essentially just a cellular telephone store now. It's really sad. ;(

[zimphbah]

My order is placed!  I really hope this gets funded, looks like a great product. 

I'm particularly interested in the way it handles joystick IDs when changing controllers.  I spoke with the developer and once Windows assigns the IDs at boot-up, plugging and unplugging the controllers will not reorder the joysticks as the PC only sees the Bliss-Box.  There is nothing worse than plugging in a new USB controller only to have your whole system get out of whack.  I really like the idea of playing consoles with their intended controllers.

Is anyone else backing this project?

[Haze]

The real issue I've had with similar adapters in the past is lag, some of the PSX ones I've used add a couple of frames of lag which becomes really noticeable.

Hopefully they've avoided that one...

[sharpfork]

Thanks for the thorough input on the KADE capabilities! Sounds awesome! Any idea when the kickstarter will launch?

We are feature complete and actually quite a bit further along than we were for our first kickstarter when it launched.  We intended to go out in February but we have all been busy with our day jobs.    We also got a bit sidetracked adding some cool new features like Dreamcast controller support, rumble on gamecube, an output option for additional consoles (NES, SNES, Genesis, and neogeo), and a super cool Mac and PC custom configuration application that lets you tweak all of the specific inputs per specific output.  We are chatting about letting the community review our kickstarter rewards and new features before launching, likely this month.

We aren't trying to make some big company or mass manufactured product out of this, it is an open source project that is for the community and we are having a ton of fun and are proud of our work. The KADE will meet not only the needs of folks who like a plug and play experience but also those who like to tinker with custom settings (programming the hardware with a nice app instead of in the emus) and makers who want to push the boundaries and build things like your own arcade controls. We have a proven track record of delivering on a Kickstarter and afterward with new features and support.  That will continue.

RE: radio shack, ebay is better these days.  The DB15 KADE controller port is a very easy to get standard and really easy for a beginning maker to use. Here is an example of 10 shipped form the US: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot10-D-Sub-Female-Plug-DB15pin-Solder-Soldering-Cup-cable-wire-End-Connector-SH-/121580748109?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c4ec6fd4d  China is super cheap if you don't mind waiting.  We also make little converter boards that make it super easy to solder.

[adder]

The real issue I've had with similar adapters in the past is lag, some of the PSX ones I've used add a couple of frames of lag which becomes really noticeable.

Hopefully they've avoided that one...

Hey Haze, i have a couple of the adapters in this link:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/USB-PlayStation-Controller-Adapter-PC/dp/B0009J1JAW
i havnt noticed any lag with these ones, i have a spare one if u want it for free so if it's something you would like, pm me

[Fursphere]

So is this thing:

1) A keyboard encoder?
2) A direct-x joystick / gamepad encoder?
3) A x-input gamepad encoder?
4) Some combination of the above?
5) Kickstart first, figure out that stuff later?

I see "USB" and "HID" - but nothing about how it actually interfaces with the software its meant to interact with.  HID can be a keyboard, a gamepad, a mouse, etc.   Pretty vague. 

Don't get me wrong, the idea here is great.  But the devil is in the details. 

[ulao]

I don't really think KADE and Bliss-box are that similar. I like what KADE is doing and wish them all the best. Bruno (I believe their lead developer) and I were pretty good friends until the battle of the KS's. I miss our talkes. From what I can tell both of our projects have the same back bone with our own touch and approaches.  Getting into a who is better than who is not really relevant here, it’s more of what suits you better.

I too was really confused why their KS didn't go off and we tried very hard to avoid overlapping this time.  I hate the fact that competition and money separates people. If only KADE Bliss-Box and Raphael(raphnet) could be one Ok so pipe dreams aside...

About Bliss-box. We are trying to make a company and we have mass manufactured our product and will remain open source. Bliss-Box has been around since 07 doing what KADE is doing. We design and allow users to design adapters from our Kits. This option is still here, and will always be here. We got in to this KS and mass production because quite frankly, we don't have enough man power to support the demand of products. So instead of closing up shop like the retro-adapter, because building orders every day of your life is not a hobby, we decided to make it a fast, cheaper, and smart design. 

The full intention of Bliss-Box is to open up a web site sales. The 4-play is just the chosen product to start it. Quote from the KS.

Bliss-Box has so many more projects we want to work on. From the production of the Single-Play to solving the LCD light gun problem, we're determined to continue the forward march of emulation and games preservation as well as enjoy modern games in ways that were impossible before. The success of this Kickstarter would bring Bliss-Box to a future we thought was much further away. We thank all our backers for their help in making this possible.

Other options to look forward to are; in-drive bay options, better options for arcade cabs, and device add-ons like Zapper gun filter for use with LCD and Plasma displays, multi-console adapters.

The matter of the ID’s is a problem that is hard to escape. We recognized that issue and are researching a solution. There is a way to fix this but at this time it is involved. The beta team is working with development and continuing to find a better solution.  For XP systems you could use that ID switching app by wingman but it does not work on win7. At the time being we are planning on 4 firmware’s  each with an ID Bliss-Box1, Bliss-Box3, Bliss-Box3, and Bliss-Box4 but not many people will want to flash 4 firmware’s to each port and try to figure out what port is what.  Join the forums to learn more.

So is this thing:

1) A keyboard encoder?
2) A direct-x joystick / gamepad encoder?
3) A x-input gamepad encoder?
4) Some combination of the above?
5) Kickstart first, figure out that stuff later?

A USB HID device is device that uses the USB API's included driver. Meaning it will work on any USB aware system, Windows, OSX, Linux, Raspberry Pi, Android, the PS3, ect. It will work with xpadder if you desire.

The full HID is a gamepad / mouse dual device. The mouse is for attari paddles if you have problems setting it up as an analog. There are 3 modes you can select. http://bliss-box.net/Bliss-Box/howTo.html see Atari paddle modes.

[zimphbah]

Flashing firmware to each port isn't a big deal.  I'm just thankful you are addressing an issue that no other adapter has really tackled successfully when using more that one identical controller.

[ulao]

I guess I should have mentioned the Bliss-Box API may also be an option. Either way once its figure out I'll write it up so other project can benefit from it. I hate gaps like that. I remember back in the 90s when I had 4 game pad pro's that playing with 4 players was a pain not knowing what ID was what. Here 15 years later its still a problem...

Another example of this was the force feed back with no drivers. I searched everywhere for the solution. Finlay in 07 or 08 I decided to figure it out myself and once complete, I wrote it up. Now I see other project copying that design. Glad to know I help but not much of thx, ah its the net...

Another example I know KADE benefited from (at least at one point (not sure they still use v-USB) ) as did Bliss-box was the IvIePhisto v-USB fix. The guy spent two hours concurring that ASM code to make it work on the XBox. He had to fake full speed so that Xbox would accept input from a low speed virtual SB device. What a genius! Sadly he got cancer after that and is presumed fatal.

[2600]

I hadn't heard about the KADE miniconsole+ thing, but it looks interesting.  I haven't used a KADE device, but I like looking through the KADE stuff as it appears pretty well designed in Hardware, Firmware, and Software.


The Blissblox stuff appears to be a cluster.  This is what the 2nd Kickstarter attempt and I'm don't see it hitting it's goal this time either.  Maybe others are having issues that are solved by this, but for me this would cause more problems then solve for me.  I don't like the idea of proprietary connectors for each controller to connect to the base unit.  It would be one thing if it was like a NES to a DB connector, but to HDMI is a pain.  I'm also not a fan of the Hardware design.  It's like a decade old USB hack multiplied by 4 with a built in USB hub.  I don't understand why anyone would try to mass produce that in this day and age.

[bootsector]

...Another example I know KADE benefited from (at least at one point (not sure they still use v-USB) ) as did Bliss-box was the IvIePhisto v-USB fix....

KADE doesn't use V-USB (emulated USB) at all.

[ulao]

That certainly is a good move. Guessing it was not KADE when it started? I can see the advantages when connecting to consoles like the Xbox's and ps3 but as far v-USB goes, its never been an issue on a computer for us. Some of the new avr chips have usb built in now and we may use that chip on our add-on's.

The mass production of the 4-play is really to address the demand we saw when making theses. Although it's simple enough to build, that is not for everyone. Many people just wanted a ready to go, 4 player, cheep option to the full version we hand build. This 4 player is essentially 4 Bliss-Boxes in one ($600) and $25 less the one Bliss-Box($150).  A KS like fundraiser is the only way to raise the funds at that modest level. A true mass production of products will never see a fundraiser as the demand should already be proven. Same goes for what is inside, more then likely it will not be open source and of course it will use more hardware and less firmware. All of that is really a no brain to many people. The plan to aim at that level is something we would entertain but I don't see that sort of thing filling the hopes and dreams of many people with a niche product.  There are products that could, and we'd like to try on a few projects we have but funding is essential for getting that in motion. You don't just enter the world of high traffic mass production from humble beginning or garage projects.  There are steps involved unless you hit a great idea that makes you really successful.

The real issue I've had with similar adapters in the past is lag, some of the PSX ones I've used add a couple of frames of lag which becomes really noticeable.

It will come down to the OS, linux likes to pull a usb controller every 2 ms, and windows uses 8 (can be hacked). The PlayStation controller has more than 8 packets to send, so full speed USB does avoid that. Most projects use the USB 1.1 low speed, meaning you will need more then one poll to get all packets across. Outside of two polls is the red line. The actual polling of the controller does not take long. You should not see any leg in both of these project.

There are reg hacks for windows to make poll times faster. Use at own risk.