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Author Topic: Pinball  (Read 3915 times)

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kk99

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Pinball
« on: February 14, 2015, 07:27:47 pm »
Hello all,

I've been looking around for a pinball machine... however, everything I see on the web is ridiculously expansive. BUT... I just found a website where they sell pinball machines for prices that are significantly lower than what I've seen thus far.  Which makes me suspicious.  Either I was a sucker for looking at all those highly overprices machines... or I'm a sucker thinking this site has legit machines at those prices.

Here are some pics of the Indiana Jones machine he's selling.  Looks like it's in great shape.  What am I missing here??

Thanks for your inputs... again...


Well Fed Games

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2015, 07:36:48 pm »
Hmm. http://www.buynsellpinballmachines.com/ads/indiana-jones-pinball-machine-for-sale/

Site looks shady to me. A lot of the ads have the same or boilerplate type text.

But maybe that particular seller is legit and actually just wants to sell it for a fair price. Only way to know is make contact and keep an eye out for scams (paypal, money order, refuses to take more pics, etc.)

edit: actually it looks like those pics are from an old ebay auction. So no, not legit. http://www.treasure-cove.net/Indiana%20Jones_EA.htm
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 07:38:51 pm by Well Fed Games »
Completed projects: Pac bartop (Plug & Play), 30th Anniversary Pac cab (MAME), Point Blank (PS1), Centipede (arcade hardware- light restore), VS. Super Mario Bros (arcade hardware- light restore) Tetris Cocktail (SNES), Arcade Classics upright (60-in-1, then MAME), Multi-Raiden (arcade hardware). Pac Man vs.(Gamecube),

Working on: Pinball Re-theme, Homebrew arcade arena shooter

kk99

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2015, 08:00:48 pm »
Good catch! Funny thing is... I thought I had recognized those pics!!

I'm impressed that you came across that site so quickly, I must say... I also did notice the generic "competitive prices" line that came back often.  He offered payment through Western Union.

You know... I feel a little dumb right now... But I thought PP was a pretty safe way to purchase things since I had some protection.  I don't often use it but that's what I thought.

Slippyblade

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2015, 08:05:50 pm »
How does Western Union even operate these days?  I swear, I see those words and run, period.  Almost every scam on the planet uses them.

kk99

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2015, 08:12:23 pm »
Seriously??  Man... I'm waaayyy out to lunch on all of this.  NEVER heard of that one!!

I just confronted him... telling him I had found his pic on another website (ok, technically, *I* didn't find them... but he doesn't need to know the details).

How about PayPal?  I'd have to read their terms again, but I thought I was getting some protection through them.

Well Fed Games

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2015, 08:18:41 pm »
Yeah, the Chrome browser (and probably others) has a "search google for this image" option that has helped me spot fakes a couple times.

As far as paypal, I use it a lot, and actually prefer it to putting my credit card info in a site. i guess I meant more if someone wants you to pay by Paypal (or any other means) without seeing the game in person. But there are a couple of ways (like getting talked into using the friend/family money sending option) that you have to be careful of. I think it helps if PP draws from a credit card vs a bank account since most card companies have some sort of recourse if something goes wrong. I haven't been burnt (came close though, when did the friends/family option once).

I sometimes wonder if pins are just going to keep going up or if there will be a price crash eventually.

Good catch! Funny thing is... I thought I had recognized those pics!!

I'm impressed that you came across that site so quickly, I must say... I also did notice the generic "competitive prices" line that came back often.  He offered payment through Western Union.

You know... I feel a little dumb right now... But I thought PP was a pretty safe way to purchase things since I had some protection.  I don't often use it but that's what I thought.
Completed projects: Pac bartop (Plug & Play), 30th Anniversary Pac cab (MAME), Point Blank (PS1), Centipede (arcade hardware- light restore), VS. Super Mario Bros (arcade hardware- light restore) Tetris Cocktail (SNES), Arcade Classics upright (60-in-1, then MAME), Multi-Raiden (arcade hardware). Pac Man vs.(Gamecube),

Working on: Pinball Re-theme, Homebrew arcade arena shooter

kk99

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2015, 08:29:11 pm »
I'll be dammed! I had never noticed that option in Chrome (which I use)!!  More reasons to just love Google... Thanks for sharing... that alone was worth the exchange.

Yeah. PP was what I had in mind. And yes, I do go through a Credit Card there as well. But like I said, from what I recall, PP usually has its own protection.

I haven't heard from the first guy since I confronted him.  I also received another message from another one I had contacted. "I have a deal for you contact me for info".  After I told him I wanted to keep on communicating through my BS email address to protect me... haven't heard anything since.

As for the prices... I was looking at some T2 & T3 messages on the web. A couple of years ago, they were selling in the 1k range.  Now, they're in the 3k range! I might sit on the whole pinball idea for now, if prices are going to be that high.  I thought I had found a good site... but it's a good thing I was skeptical.

Great to see some people helping each other out on more honest websites.  Thanks again.

kk99

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2015, 08:39:15 pm »
The PayPal protection link does seem to imply that I'd be covered...

https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/security/buyer-protection

Fursphere

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2015, 09:58:49 pm »
When it comes to pinball machines, especially A-List titles (Like that Indiana Jones..), if the price is less than the normal "holy crap thats expensive" price its either:

1) a scam
2) thrashed so bad you don't want it (missing boards, bad playfield damage, water damage, etc)

For awhile there were cargo containers coming from overseas with these games that were shipped there originally when they were sold.  Total crap shoot on those....  half of them didn't have any of the boards.  (like, wtf did they do with them?)

kk99

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2015, 10:05:15 pm »
Well.. to be fair (to me)... I was quite skeptical about the price, hence my post here.  But I wasn't sure if the main Google hits on pinball machines were just the outrageously high priced ones while, in reality, there were much lower prices for people who knew better.

I have since found a link on this very website on how much I should realistically expect to pay for a given pin.

Thanks for all the inputs.  Prevented me from (potentially) doing a stupid thing.

Fursphere

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2015, 10:21:45 pm »
Good luck on your quest to acquire a pinball machine...  just remember one leads to two.. two leads to four...  and then you'll be looking for new and creative places to keep them in your home.  :)

The various prices guides are decent, but they don't account for location.  The more local demand for pins drives the price up the higher ends of the spectrum. 

kk99

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2015, 08:32:25 am »
I'd really love to have them... but at those prices, not sure nothing will lead to one for now...

kk99

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2015, 08:36:52 am »
Ha! I just went browsing on Cragslist and the first warning I see at the bottom on the page is "Avoid scams, deal locally Beware wiring (e.g. Western Union), cashier checks, money orders, shipping."

There you have it... "Western Union".  I've been shopping online, for pretty much everything in my house, since 2001.  How did I not ever notice this before!  I guess cause I usually buy through protected & more reputable sites.  Still... I'm surprised I never noticed.

Fursphere

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2015, 10:14:09 am »
I'd really love to have them... but at those prices, not sure nothing will lead to one for now...

I taught myself how to fix / restore Gottlieb system 80 machines (and I'm currently working on a System 3).  I've picked up a few cheap, restored them, and play the heck out of them.  I'd love to have some of the (much) more expensive games, but its just not feasible for me.  So I own some cheaper games, and go to the various west coast arcade shows one or twice a year to play the expensive ones.   :cheers:

Don't get caught up in the "big name titles" so much that you overlook the others.

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2015, 10:27:50 am »
That garage in the background of your first pic belongs to a very well known pinball retailer.  Anytime you see it on an ad, you're 100% dealing with a scammer.

http://www.treasurecovepinball.com/photo-gallery.htm
This forum needs more threads about Arcade 1Up cabinets.

kk99

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2015, 10:46:30 am »
yep. No doubts remain about that guy.

Been wondering though... With all these super restorations going around... It makes the old pins look great and you sure pay the price for it... however, I'm wondering if, in the long run, the drastic restorations will actually make you lose on your massive initial "investment". Old pins must be the same as any other antiques... they eventually lose considerable value when restored.  Don't they?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 10:58:26 am by kk99 »

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2015, 10:55:31 am »
You know Ebay gets "dogged" a lot  because of their fees.But I would stick with them.unless you can go see it locally like craigs list. The protection factor is worth it. They are definitely about protecting the seller. I sold an aquarium to a guy for around $350, it was one of those nice all in one cubes,with LED light.I shipped it and apparently was considered lost at around 15 days. I had to give him a refund, even though USPS had no idea where it was. So I asked ebay what if it shows up at the guys house delivered and you have given him a refund. They basically said too bad. Well eventually I got paid, but the lesson here is ebay is all about protecting the buyer, but not the seller. So I would feel safe either way. If I was dropping that much on a pin I would go see it first hand. Pictures can be very deceiving.

Paul Olson

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2015, 03:22:01 pm »
yep. No doubts remain about that guy.

Been wondering though... With all these super restorations going around... It makes the old pins look great and you sure pay the price for it... however, I'm wondering if, in the long run, the drastic restorations will actually make you lose on your massive initial "investment". Old pins must be the same as any other antiques... they eventually lose considerable value when restored.  Don't they?

Restored pins can be worth a lot of money, but there are only a handful of restorers who are good enough (or at least have the reputation of being good enough) to increase the value. A Hep restore can be worth many thousands more than a mint condition pin. The restoration process costs $6000+ usually, so I don't know if they are actually worth more than what goes into them. The market for them is really small as well. Most people would rather have "only mint" for half the cost.

Prices are higher in pinball for sure. I spend more in LEDs and mods on pins than I have ever spent on an arcade game. You can also get to a point, fairly quickly, that $5000 for a pin seems like an impulse buy. It is a little crazy. The newer pins ( I have Metallica and AC/DC) are really fun games though.

I wanted a Star Trek: The Next Generation since I started buying games in 2005. They were selling for $1700 then, and I thought the price was just insane. Fast forward a few years, and I thought I got an extremely good deal getting one for $3100. That same game sold last year (sold by the guy who bought it from me) for $5000.

I am actually on a preorder list for a $10k pinball machine, but I am not sure if I will end up buying it. I am still really happy with Metallica, and I think it and the 4 other pins  have are doing a good job of satisfying my pinball addiction for now.

I am actually putting my pinball budget into tech toys this year, and it is amazing how much you can actually buy instead of a pinball machine. lol
I am using my new Surface Pro 3 way more than I actually use any of the games in the gameroom.

kk99

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2015, 03:57:17 pm »
Don't know man... seems like if I was willing to spend around 6-7k for one... I might as well buy a brand new one from Stern.  Not a classic, but an amazing looking one and you avoid all this "uncertainty" around buying restored ones.  If you're careful with it, you could probably sell it for the same price (or higher) years later, if Stern didn't make it anymore.

I'm looking at the LOTR one on Stern... now, it's part of the Archived ones but there's still a price tag for it and it DOES look like you can still purchase it. Well a new one is listed at $6500 MSRP. Go to ebay and they sell them for the same price or higher??

I spent too much money on my HT last year... I have to make SOME compromise at some point... As much as I'd love having a pin in there, I'm seriously wondering how justified I am in spending that kind of money on it.

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2015, 04:08:27 pm »
Buy locally and get something more affordable.  learn how to fix it when it breaks.  watch the market and know when to walk on a deal and when to run to pick it up.  get a wad of 100's in a sock so you can move on buys without having to go to the bank.  Get a pin capable vehicle and a decent hand truck.  increase the value of your lower price machines tremendously by bulletproofing them and getting them reliably working 100%.  Get used to the idea that you will make $2/hour for your labor (or $-10/hour). 

you will play more games, have more fun, and then if you put $6k on a new stern, or $8.5K on The Hobbit, you'll feel better about the investment. 

Paul Olson

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2015, 05:42:31 pm »
Don't know man... seems like if I was willing to spend around 6-7k for one... I might as well buy a brand new one from Stern.  Not a classic, but an amazing looking one and you avoid all this "uncertainty" around buying restored ones.  If you're careful with it, you could probably sell it for the same price (or higher) years later, if Stern didn't make it anymore.

I'm looking at the LOTR one on Stern... now, it's part of the Archived ones but there's still a price tag for it and it DOES look like you can still purchase it. Well a new one is listed at $6500 MSRP. Go to ebay and they sell them for the same price or higher??

I spent too much money on my HT last year... I have to make SOME compromise at some point... As much as I'd love having a pin in there, I'm seriously wondering how justified I am in spending that kind of money on it.

They haven't produced LotR for a few years, but since they have it listed at that price in the archives, it may hint that they will rerun it again (I think they have ran it 4 different times now over the years) one of these days. It is not currently for sale by Stern though.  Distributors sell for way less than MSRP though, so if they do rerun them, the street price would probably be closer to $5800. You can buy used HUO Lotrs for around $5k pretty much any time you want.

I agree on buying new pins. The only higher dollar old pin I have right now is GnR. I think I paid $4500 for that one. I really like it, but not as much as I like Metallica.

I wouldn't count on any of the newer games appreciating anymore. Stern seems willing to rerun any pin (except LEs) that starts to get expensive in the used market. I think the good games will continue to hold a good percentage of their value though.


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Re: Pinball
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2015, 05:57:11 pm »
I dunno....  Tron LE is demanding a high price these days. 

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2015, 06:42:03 pm »

I wanted a Star Trek: The Next Generation since I started buying games in 2005. They were selling for $1700 then.

Lol.  No, they weren't.   Go peddle "good ol days" BS elsewhere.

This forum needs more threads about Arcade 1Up cabinets.

kk99

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2015, 08:29:12 pm »
hmmm.... not sure where all these $5000 LotR HUO pins are... I've seen one in California so far... too far...

kk99

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2015, 09:55:05 pm »
deleted
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 10:13:39 pm by kk99 »

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2015, 08:14:47 pm »
Yep, NEVER use Western Union to buy ANYTHING! You use that if you have a friend in jail out of state and he needs bail money or a relative is out of state and they need money to get their car fixed.

kk99

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2015, 06:06:37 pm »
If everything goes through.... tomorrow, I should be the happy owner of my very first pin.  Probably not the best deal and I didn't even bargain for fear of losing it to somebody else locally... but I had almost given up on them altogether.

So it'll be a VERY clean T3 machine. With sub, special railings and LED's... well, that's what he stated.  I, personally, didn't actually know about these extras.  Private sell... after quite a few emails, I have full confidence on the guy. $2900.  From the prices listed under the pinballprice for an "excellent" pin, it's more or less the price they seem to be worth these days.

If you think I got screwed... go easy on me and don't ruin my excitement too much... ;)

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2015, 01:31:53 am »
Most of the people try to find the absolute cheapest pin they can get. If it is in nice shape, and it is a game you like, it probably isn't too bad of a price. I have about that into my No Fear after getting it shopped. I may or may not get most of my money back if I sell it someday, but I don't care too much about that. I buy my toys to enjoy. Have fun with it!

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2015, 09:40:25 pm »
When looking for pins, also remember that "HUO (Home Use Only)" often means "never been waxed, rocking the original rubbers, ball might be a little rusty, thank god it probably has low plays"

The majority of pinball owners I know don't have a clue how to work on them or properly maintain them.  "Just shopped out!" often means "recently wiped off with a semi-clean rag". 

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2015, 08:47:37 am »
When looking for pins, also remember that "HUO (Home Use Only)" often means "never been waxed, rocking the original rubbers, ball might be a little rusty, thank god it probably has low plays"

The majority of pinball owners I know don't have a clue how to work on them or properly maintain them.  "Just shopped out!" often means "recently wiped off with a semi-clean rag".

I helped my inlaws pick up a pinball just last spring.  The listing was on ebay, but ended up being about 10 minutes from my house.  They came for a visit all excited about this "extra clean" and "shopped" machine (I told them what that word SHOULD mean), and it was a fairly popular machine (World Cup Soccer).  We get to this guy's house, if you can call it a house.  In an area where the average home cost is around $225,000 and that gets you a pretty nice house, this place was recently bought (by them) for over $1.1Million.  So a very nice place.

Anyway, we thought, this will be a gem of a machine...  Nope.

The guy said that when he bought it 10 years ago, it was fully gone through and was 100% perfect.  THAT was his idea of "shopped"...  Something done 10 years ago.

I swear that this thing was left in a garage or back room of a basement without the glass on it for about a month, and then played.  At least from the looks.  It was DIRTY.  A lot of the lights no longer worked.  There were broken plastics, one of the flippers was malfunctioning, etc.

I asked about the broken plastic pieces, and he said that he never knew about anything ever breaking, so either he was lying, or his 100% perfect machine wasn't so perfect.

With all of that, as some pricing information from recent sales, we were in a good position for some negotiation. 

They were asking something like $2,300 "firm" but after listing all of the things that the machine needed, and the elbow grease to clean it all up, the guy sold it to my in-laws for $1,300.  I created a parts list, and we ordered everything, and then spent a good portion of a saturday stripping down and cleaning the playfield, replacing bulbs and broken pieces, rebuilding both flippers, and giving it a good wax, and replacing the glass that had some big scratches in it.  The parts came in at about $350 shipped, including a service manual and a couple of "fun" items like the keychain piece, etc.   It now looks and plays extremely nicely. Definately a good buy in my in-law's mind.

So yeah, "shopped" means that at one point it was looked over.  That could have been a month ago, but most likely was a few years ago.

pbj

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2015, 10:09:06 am »
Years ago I was selling a SF2 pin and got some weird e-mail like, "has it been shopped - meaning all the rubbers and light bulbs have been replaced?"  I guess Google can arm you with some buzz words.  I replied that it had been cleaned and I only replaced the bulbs that were burnt out. 

Then she told me the theme was too violent for her children... and I'm thinking, then why did you contact me in the first place...?

 :dunno

Guess it's better than blaming "the wife" like so many around here do.

This forum needs more threads about Arcade 1Up cabinets.

kk99

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2015, 10:11:53 pm »
Well.... this is my first one so I'm not exactly in the best position to provide a thorough analysis of the quality of the machine... But I'll say this... I'm pretty damn freakin happy with it!

Bought on Craigslist... I just happened to see it like 2 hours after it'd been posted.  Like I said, I didn't try to bargain... Was afraid somebody else would just come and take it away at the listed price, so I decided to be that one guy instead...

The guy was truly a class act.  Remember, I didn't know ANYTHING about pinballs... He showed me how to open everything up... told me about his lessons learned (the hard way)... showed me all the available settings (had no clue that there were so many settings)... told me that it was probably due for a good wax (what??)... and that he had quality balls and told me about the importance of having good ones.  He provided his own wrap to keep the backbox down... provided his lift to take it out of the house... and even gave me his own cardboard to slide it in and out (a must, as I found out).  So I don't feel the slightest remorse for not negotiating the price. He gave me his personal info and offered help if I needed it.  Hard to ask for a better seller!

Here are the pics...

Thanks for all your inputs!  Now... I gotta find out how to wax this thing... I haven't even waxed my freakin car in like 4 years... But I have to wax a pin? :)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 10:27:48 pm by kk99 »

jennifer

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2015, 10:19:26 pm »
      Nice Score!!!.... You will never forget your first.  ;)

kk99

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2015, 10:33:21 pm »
I haven't  :)

pbj

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2015, 10:41:05 pm »
Mothers California gold cleaning wax works fine and you can get it anywhere.

T3 is a fun one

 :cheers:
This forum needs more threads about Arcade 1Up cabinets.

kk99

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2015, 10:52:07 pm »
Thanks pbj,

What do you think about this video about cleaning a pinball?



And do most people take out the railings and a bunch of stuff to wax it?  If so, is lot of work or are there quick snaps for most things??

jennifer

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2015, 11:05:27 pm »
     NO.... The guy has some issues, DO NOT USE TURTLE WAX!!! it is silicone based and will destroy any hope of ever touching it up someday (Meguires #6 is paint compatable) and quite awesome, His drill thing is not needed, just a clean cotton rag, and yes when you take it apart its a bunch of work so new bulbs and rubbers are a great idea.... For now you can just do the open areas just for some protection, just stay away from post and targets (about 1/2 in.) so you don't get a nasty build up mess on them.

kk99

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2015, 11:21:23 pm »
I was reading more on the topic.  People do seem to like the Novus 1 & 2 for the cleaning part.  But according to others, they think some people over do it.  One guy (or gal ;) ) is saying that he "simply wipe it down with a microfiber towel once a month and have put Mothers Pure Carnauba Past Wax on it. The table looks brand new despite 1400 plays and never using Novus 2."

But one thing seems to be agreed upon... it must me a Carnauba based wax (which both Meguires #6 & Mothers California gold are).  I kinda like the approach of simply using wax and not over do it on the Novus stuff.  BUT ONCE A MONTH!!!! I HATE waxing my car :)

Thanks for your inputs Jennifer... that 1/2" around the post and targets is good to know!

kk99

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2015, 11:26:11 pm »
hmmm..... some people are saying that the liquid stuff has more chemicals in it, so they prefer the "hard", purer stuff.

jennifer

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Re: Pinball
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2015, 11:52:02 pm »
    Your overthinking this.... No Silicone, New bulbs/rubbers don't over tighten your screws on reassembly.... And don't believe them about chems. Either Cal/gold or meguires (the whole line) are not only paint safe but AWESOME products.