Encoder Recommendations

[mike96sc2]

Hello-

I'm working on a new multi-cade setup after being away from this for a few years now. I'm looking for some encoder advice. What is recommended based on my button layout, etc.

I would like to have the following:

2 Players w/ 7 button layout (4 across the top, 3 across the bottom, and one of the top buttons matching the bottom (ie top row X X X Y, bottom row (blank) Y X X

10 admin buttons (enter, pause, menu, back, volume up, volume down, P1, coin 1, P2, coin 2)

Long story short, this puts me with 24 buttons. Any advice would be appreciated.

Also, I'm considering lighting some of the buttons, any advice on if a controller is needed, etc is appreciated as well.

[Generic Eric]

Keywiz@ groovygamegear.com
Kade @ kadevice.com
ipac @ultimarc.com

There is another that is a ps3 xbox encoder, that I just can't think of.


Anyway, its about meeting your needs within your budget.  I've used a key wiz and kade.  Good experience with both.

[keilmillerjr]

Right now, I think the top two all in one encoders are the Wolfware Howler and the Ultimarc iPac Ultimate I/O.

You don't need an enter button. You can map player 1 button 1 to "enter" in your front end. No idea what the difference between "menu" and "back" is. You only need one button to map to Escape key. I'm actually writing an app that maps the escape button to pause in mame, and sends escape only if you hold the button down. Eliminates the need for another button and accidental exiting the game.

[Generic Eric]

Look for a unit with a shift key!  Frees up a lot of space.

[PL1]

Hello-

I'm working on a new multi-cade setup after being away from this for a few years now. I'm looking for some encoder advice. What is recommended based on my button layout, etc.

I would like to have the following:

2 Players w/ 7 button layout (4 across the top, 3 across the bottom, and one of the top buttons matching the bottom (ie top row X X X Y, bottom row (blank) Y X X

10 admin buttons (enter, pause, menu, back, volume up, volume down, P1, coin 1, P2, coin 2)

Long story short, this puts me with 24 buttons. Any advice would be appreciated.

Also, I'm considering lighting some of the buttons, any advice on if a controller is needed, etc is appreciated as well.

Actually, that would be 32 inputs unless you intend to leave out the P1/P2 joysticks.

If the two P1B4 "Y" buttons are tied to the same input and the two P2B4 "Y" buttons are tied to another, that narrows it down to 30 inputs.

I assume that back = Esc (exit), right?

***  In this section, I assume you are talking about a dedicated cab, not a portable control panel.  ***

Consider losing the menu button unless nobody but you is going to use the cab -- you probably won't need to access the menus after setup is finished. (29 inputs)

As KMJ points out, the Enter isn't necessary for a dedicated cab, but it can be useful on a portable control panel. (28 inputs)

Unless you are planning on animating (lighting only the buttons used in the game you are currently playing) or using RGB LED buttons, the Howler and IPac Ultimate I/O are a waste of money IMHO -- for single-color, always-on LEDs, just wire power to them directly from a Molex.

The Ultimarc IPac2 or a KADE (or a "roll-your-own" equivalent) would be good USB choices.

KADE will require some diodes to isolate the "shifted" function buttons (HWB input = shift on KADE) and/or "backwards" wiring for Extended Mode.

The GGG KeyWiz is a PS/2 option to consider if you intend to use the default keymap -- some people have had trouble loading a custom keymap at bootup. 


Scott

[mike96sc2]

Thanks for the advice, last night I was thinking out buttons and I probably have far more than I need.

I decided against worrying about any lighting options, I prefer concave buttons anyway.

My key thoughts are (1) price and (2) lag. The last thing I want to do is go cheap and end up with something with so much lag it renders games unplayable.

[PL1]

None of the options presented here have lag problems. 

If price is a major consideration and you're reasonably handy with a soldering iron, check out the "AVR list" link in my sig.


Scott

[Fursphere]

There is another that is a ps3 xbox encoder, that I just can't think of.

Akishop PS360+   http://akishop-customs.com/PS360Plus.html

Its the only controller so far thats does XInput encoding - although Ultimarc is supposed to add it to the iPac very soon?

[Hoopz]

Nobody mentions Hagstrom's encoders anymore.  They are expensive but can handle everything.  Again, expensive but a long time product in the community.

[SavannahLion]

howler @ http://www.wolfwareeng.com/?page_id=228

I'm not sure if I would encourage the use of the Howler in projects. He has placed the OSHW logo on the PCB. In the past I pointed out that his site lacked the technical documents as required by the OSHW group. His response was:

@savannahlion: I will be releasing the schematics and firmware source code very soon. I have just been Very busy getting all the howlers shipped out.

Also, i think it is very unfair that BYOC has removed my post about the howler clone device. I still have yet to hear a peep from its creator about it and them my post with hundreds of views and dozens of comments gets removed. I guess the truth isn't allowed on BYOC...

This post will probably be removed as well...

Josh

That was nine months ago and, checking Josh's site just now, shows that he has only the schematic as a pdf readily available. He has done the bare absolute minimum and I'm not entirely convinced this complies with the OSHW requirements.

I'm sure that someone will argue that with the schematic, one only has to refer to the Atmel and NXP for their controller and I2C LED drivers documents in order to craft their own firmware. My counter argument to this is his compliance with OSHW barely qualifies and his behavior (so far) is contrary to the spirit of OSHW and its intent. This is apparent about his accusation of a "howler clone device". What would one expect if one chooses to open source his device? Not that he's actually followed through with this and, as far as I can tell, the so-called "clone" isn't actually a clone per-se but separate unique hardware with separate, proprietary, development.

If he never had the OSHW logo on that board from the get-go, I wouldn't bat an eye. But having the OSHW and barely following through with it then complaining when someone else has similar offerings doesn't sit well with me.

[Fursphere]

SavannahLion is correct.  Or at least I read the requirements the same way.

From http://www.oshwa.org/faq/

What files do I need to share?

Open-source hardware means sharing the files needed to build *and* modify your hardware. As the open-source hardware definition explains, that means the version of the files that you would prefer for making changes to the design, not an intermediate or obfuscated version. For mechanical stuff, this means the original CAD files. For circuit boards, it’s the original schematic and board layout files.

Howler has the schematic downloadable, but not the board layout files.  And I'm not sure you could reproduce the circuit from those schematics either?   I'm used to reading pinball machine schematics (boards and harness) for repair reasons...  and the Howler schematic doesn't make a lot of sense to me?  (but I'm not a pro in that area by any means...  lol) 

[Generic Eric]

Huh...
For $99 I thought it was plug & play like the rest.  I'll null that out promptly.

[Generic Eric]

There is another that is a ps3 xbox encoder, that I just can't think of.

Akishop PS360+   http://akishop-customs.com/PS360Plus.html

Its the only controller so far thats does XInput encoding - although Ultimarc is supposed to add it to the iPac very soon?

Indeed, that is the one.  I've never used it, but that's what I was thinking off.

[PL1]

There is another that is a ps3 xbox encoder, that I just can't think of.

Akishop PS360+   http://akishop-customs.com/PS360Plus.html

Its the only controller so far thats does XInput encoding - although Ultimarc is supposed to add it to the iPac very soon?

Indeed, that is the one.  I've never used it, but that's what I was thinking off.

If lag is a major consideration, be careful what version firmware you get.

According to testing done here, the v1.2 and v1.4 firmwares (red) add an extra 1/2 frame of lag compared to the newer version (last pink) for XBox360.




Scott

[Fursphere]

There is another that is a ps3 xbox encoder, that I just can't think of.

Akishop PS360+   http://akishop-customs.com/PS360Plus.html

Its the only controller so far thats does XInput encoding - although Ultimarc is supposed to add it to the iPac very soon?

Indeed, that is the one.  I've never used it, but that's what I was thinking off.

If lag is a major consideration, be careful what version firmware you get.

According to testing done here, the v1.2 and v1.4 firmwares (red) add an extra 1/2 frame of lag compared to the newer version (last pink) for XBox360.

Scott

Current firmware is 1.6 (although its a pain to update - lots of tedious steps).  So that chart may or may not have any relevance on the current product.  I think there was a board re-design too?    At $60 per player, they sure are NOT the cheapest option out there.  But if you want / need x-input compatibility - there aren't many options (no others at this time - some promised, but none delivered - unless you count mad catz gamepad hacking)

I have two of them, and I've used them a tiny bit with no issues. I need to finish upgrading my cabinet and get them installed - but thats apparently a slow multi-year project. 

I also have an ipac-2, which has worked almost flawlessly.  (my build uses PS/2 inputs and works perfectly, my buddy's uses USB and when you hold a button down in only "repeats" for a few seconds, then stops - I never spent the time to figure out if it was the ipac doing this, or the motherboard / bios of the system it was plugged into - I think its the motherboard, but never confirmed)

[DolansCadillac]

I've got a couple of the revised PS360s currently in use on my machine to get around the x-input problem and it's been, well, mostly positive. Thankfully I definitely don't get that 16MS delay (seriously, holy hell), but both of them seem to be intermittently crappy about disconnecting themselves. We're talking one in ten or so times I start the machine (from either boot or standby), I'll hear that 'USB disconnected' sound, which means opening up the panel and re-connecting the cable and that ~usually~ fixes it without any more hassle. Oh, and the computer will add a massive pause during boot if the BIOS is set to check for USB devices with them connected, can't figure that one out either.

I've tried like 5 different cables, updating firmware, using every combination of USB ports including two from a PCI card, etc etc and it's still moody. I mean when they work, they work just fine, but considering the potential hassle you'd better reeeally want x-input.

On the other hand, the iPAC2 that's also in there has worked like a champ for about eight years with zero problems.

[DolansCadillac]

Current firmware is 1.6 (although its a pain to update - lots of tedious steps).

Oh and yeah, this. Holy ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. Whatever you picture in your head for 'how messy could it be to just update a firmware' isn't even halfway there, I assure you. Really gives you confidence in their product when their single link to the obscure kit driver AND entire software package you need to download to do the update is broken. Oh and after you get the resulting hunt for that sorted out, enjoy the VB6 project nightmare interface from hell, with instructions so hilariously specific you'd think you were hacking a cell phone in the mid 2000's.

[Fursphere]

Current firmware is 1.6 (although its a pain to update - lots of tedious steps).

Oh and yeah, this. Holy ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. Whatever you picture in your head for 'how messy could it be to just update a firmware' isn't even halfway there, I assure you. Really gives you confidence in their product when their single link to the obscure kit driver AND entire software package you need to download to do the update is broken. Oh and after you get the resulting hunt for that sorted out, enjoy the VB6 project nightmare interface from hell, with instructions so hilariously specific you'd think you were hacking a cell phone in the mid 2000's.

He speaks the truth.  It really is a cluster-F to upgrade.  It uses third party chip programming software....

Also, the entire chart appears to speak to XBox 360 performance, not PC related performance.  The Xbox 306 is a pile of crap IMO...  (damn things overheat and un-solder their own boards..   seriously how does that get past QC?) so who knows if this chart means anything at all to PC users.

[Generic Eric]

who knows if this chart means anything at all to PC users.

Peasant gamers measuring in % of milliseconds?

Sorry, my reddit is showing.  But seriously, what gear are they using to measure this?  I thoroughly expect some Mythbusters level  explenation.

[Fursphere]

lol

I didn't mean like I was talking down to console gamers.  I own quite a few consoles myself.  (PS2, PS3, Wii, Wii U - I think I've owned every console Nintendo has ever made at one point or another).  I just have no love for Microsoft consoles. 

http://teyah.net/sticklag/results.html



On the PS3 console, the PS360+ scores very high.   (vs. the XB360)

The testing methodology is explained here:

http://teyah.net/sticklag/overview.html

(i'm curious about the effects of connecting the grounds across player inputs...)

And after reading the results and understanding what the guy was doing, I think he was pointing out that on consoles, in a VS. situation, each player should have similar sticks, or at least realize that you can indeed be beaten by the hardware.   If you use two of the same encoders, both players would have the same latency and the "lag" would be meaningless.

[Locke141]

Good to know about the ps360. I have thought of trying one for a fight stick. I'll hold off for the I-pac to have XInput support.

I have an I-pac 4 and it has been 100% spot on. I'd recommend the whole I-pac line by extension.

Not a recommendation more like a warning. I've used cheep-O Chinese zero delay encoder (a joystick encoder) purchased off e-bay. I have never had a problem with one but lost of people around here have. I'm having a few KADEs brought over by my Mother in law next month and plan on using them in place of them in place of zero delay's in future small builds.