Howler controller and RGB light question

[n3wt0n]

Hi Everyone,

I have a Howler controller sitting on my desk waiting to be wired up to a bunch of RGB LED buttons but which RGB buttons to choose is the question.

It states on the Howler website that "Each button port can drive its own RGB LED (+5V@17mA per LED) with 255 levels per colour." but then buttons like the Groovy Game Gear RGB drive II state "These modules are intended for use at 5v DC and consume 20ma per color for a total of 60ma when all 3 colors are at full intensity." 

Does this mean that they are not compatible since the mA rating is way off? Will the performance be effected or the Howler Controller damaged in some way? Can I get any RGB button as long as the 5V is correct? I'm lost and could use some help. I'm just trying my best to cover all my bases before I spend $100+ dollars on buttons. 

I appreciate any help you could provide.
n3wt0n

[Slippyblade]

Well, when the Howler says 17ma per LED, I'm pretty sure that it means per color.  Technically an RGB LED is 3 LEDs in a single package.  If it was 17ma for the entire RGB LED, it'd be terribly dim even at full power.

[matsadona]

I would doubt that there would be a noticeable difference in brightness from a 20mA rated LED driven by 17mA source. If it would be a difference it would probably be for the better, since some RGB button LED's are way over powered anyway (INMHO).

[n3wt0n]

I would doubt that there would be a noticeable difference in brightness from a 20mA rated LED driven by 17mA source. If it would be a difference it would probably be for the better, since some RGB button LED's are way over powered anyway (INMHO).

Thanks for the info Matsadona. So I wouldn't harm the Howler by attempting to power a 20mA rated LED and it wouldn't be a noticeable amount dimmer

Well, when the Howler says 17ma per LED, I'm pretty sure that it means per color.  Technically an RGB LED is 3 LEDs in a single package.  If it was 17ma for the entire RGB LED, it'd be terribly dim even at full power.

.

Thanks Slippyblade. This is likely the case but I just want to make sure before making the purchase.

Can anyone confirm that it is PER COLOUR? Anybody with a Howler out there willing to chime in?

[zaltec]

Please let me know your thoughts on the Howler as well, during your installation and afterwards. I've been curious about it, and have seen very little mention of it around.

[pbj]

The guy from UltiMarc is a good resource if you have technical questions about Howler functionality.

[yotsuya]

The guy from UltiMarc is a good resource if you have technical questions about Howler functionality.

[n3wt0n]

The guy from UltiMarc is a good resource if you have technical questions about Howler functionality.

Yeah? You think asking the guy how a competing product performs is a good idea? Doesn't sound like a real good way to make friends around here. Now if you will excuse me another member said I should check out the pool on the roof.

[yotsuya]

The guy from UltiMarc is a good resource if you have technical questions about Howler functionality.

Yeah? You think asking the guy how a competing product performs is a good idea? Doesn't sound like a real good way to make friends around here. Now if you will excuse me another member said I should check out the pool on the roof.

Don't worry, bro. PBJ gotta PBJ from time to time.

Wish I could help on the Howler stuff, but I haven't used one.

[pbj]

Yeah? You think asking the guy how a competing product performs is a good idea?

In this case - yes.

[keilmillerjr]

The guy from UltiMarc is a good resource if you have technical questions about Howler functionality.

The creator of howler is a good resource as well.

He responded to all of my emails very quickly. josh.wolf@wolfwareeng.com

[Generic Eric]

I dunno.  I'm not sure if you can count the amount of howler projects on more than one hand.

Point is you are blazing new ground.  You should definitely email the howler engineer without hesitation.

[matsadona]

A LED rated with a specific forward current will not "pull" more power than added to it.
Building a circuit that allows a higher current will however damage the LED. The combination of voltage and resistor sets the current.

There are also some drivers with a current limiting functionality, making the resistor unnecessary. For the Howler controller there is a series resistor at the board. You will not damage the board by connecting a LED that rated with 20mA for its rated full luminosity.

[n3wt0n]

A LED rated with a specific forward current will not "pull" more power than added to it.
Building a circuit that allows a higher current will however damage the LED. The combination of voltage and resistor sets the current.

There are also some drivers with a current limiting functionality, making the resistor unnecessary. For the Howler controller there is a series resistor at the board. You will not damage the board by connecting a LED that rated with 20mA for its rated full luminosity.

Thanks Matsadona. That is exactly the type of info I was looking for. I appreciate everyone chiming in.

[pbj]

Happy to help.

 

[matsadona]

I'm also happy to help. Please give us some feedback later about the Howler board in general.

[RandyT]

For the Howler controller there is a series resistor at the board. You will not damage the board by connecting a LED that rated with 20mA for its rated full luminosity.

You won't damage it, but if there is another resistor in series, which there are on most readily available LED assemblies, you would only get about half the brightness.

[n3wt0n]

For the Howler controller there is a series resistor at the board. You will not damage the board by connecting a LED that rated with 20mA for its rated full luminosity.

You won't damage it, but if there is another resistor in series, which there are on most readily available LED assemblies, you would only get about half the brightness.

Thanks for chiming in Randy. So would this be a problem on the RGB drive LEDs? Is there a simple way around this?

[keilmillerjr]

For the Howler controller there is a series resistor at the board. You will not damage the board by connecting a LED that rated with 20mA for its rated full luminosity.

You won't damage it, but if there is another resistor in series, which there are on most readily available LED assemblies, you would only get about half the brightness.

Thanks for chiming in Randy. So would this be a problem on the RGB drive LEDs? Is there a simple way around this?

You can see three resistors on the pcb. You can try it with the howler. If the light output is not bright enough, you could desolder the resistors and add zero-ohm resistors in their place. Or sell them on the forum here and purchase units without resistors.

[n3wt0n]

You can see three resistors on the pcb. You can try it with the howler. If the light output is not bright enough, you could desolder the resistors and add zero-ohm resistors in their place. Or sell them on the forum here and purchase units without resistors.

Thanks keilmillerjr. I guess that desoldering is always an option but I haven't ordered any buttons yet and I am going to try to avoid buying something that immediately requires modifications. I think it would be a shame to do this to brand new components. On the other hand if that is what I have to do then I will do it.

[keilmillerjr]

You can see three resistors on the pcb. You can try it with the howler. If the light output is not bright enough, you could desolder the resistors and add zero-ohm resistors in their place. Or sell them on the forum here and purchase units without resistors.

Thanks keilmillerjr. I guess that desoldering is always an option but I haven't ordered any buttons yet and I am going to try to avoid buying something that immediately requires modifications. I think it would be a shame to do this to brand new components. On the other hand if that is what I have to do then I will do it.

Order one unit and see what it looks like. Pele rings are always an option. They have pins before and after a resistor, and work with any type of button.

[matsadona]

Yes, almost every LED button at the market (except the Pele rings) that I can find have pre-installed resistors. For other controllers that is very convenient, however not for the Howler.
If you have any soldering skills I would recommend bying the LED's separately and do it your self.

Or buy something like this : http://www.ebay.com/itm/4Pin-12V-5mm-RGB-Diffused-Clear-Cathode-Anode-Pre-Wired-LED-Light-Emitting-Diode-/390871290322?pt=US_Lighting_Parts_and_Accessories&var=&hash=item5b01be91d2


Edit: Looked at the pictures again, and realized that there was a resistor there as well.

[n3wt0n]

I have no soldering experience (yet). 

I have sent a message to Josh at Wolfware to see what he recommends in this situation. I would like to think that Paradise Arcade may have a solution since they sell the Howler and Howler kits but so far I haven't been able to get a response from them. I wish they would chime in here and give me their opinion as well. So far Randy is the only one to get back to me or try to help in any way. Kudos to you Randy for your customer service so far. I hope we can find a way to make the Howler work properly with your RGB buttons.   

I haven't talked to Andy at Ultimarc because I think a flat rate of 7.5 a button is a little steep for my budget but I would assume his buttons have an inline resistor as well. Is there anyone I am missing who may have an option for RGB buttons? I'm fairly new to the scene and may be overlooking some resources.

[RandyT]

Edit: Looked at the pictures again, and realized that there was a resistor there as well.

The really odd thing about this part is that there is only one on the anode/cathode.  The resistor value is based on the voltage of the LED element.  Green and Blue are usually close enough to use the same resistor value, but Red is pretty much always higher in value (i.e. they are lower voltage).

And given that there is only one resistor, I'm not even sure how that is expected to work properly.  Resistors limit current, and the current required on the common connection will depend on how many of the LED elements are actually active at the time.  I.e. supposing that each element can handle 20ma, the load will vary between 20 and 60ma.  If the overall current is limited to 20ma, there wouldn't be enough current delivered to light each of them fully when all elements are active.  If limited to something higher, and only one element was active, then that element would be getting more current than it should, and likely cause damage.

I might be missing something, but they don't seem right.

So far Randy is the only one to get back to me or try to help in any way. Kudos to you Randy for your customer service so far. I hope we can find a way to make the Howler work properly with your RGB buttons.   

If the Howler has current limiting resistors (rather than the CC drivers) on board for 17ma, then I think I can help.  I have RGB-Drive II units sans resistors, which I would feel comfortable offering for use with that arrangement.  Drop me another email to discuss.

[n3wt0n]

I am going to wait to see if Josh comes in and helps figure this out. I am WAY out of my element here. I just need to buy nice looking buttons that aren't going to be dimly lit because of resistors.

[RandyT]

I am going to wait to see if Josh comes in and helps figure this out. I am WAY out of my element here. I just need to buy nice looking buttons that aren't going to be dimly lit because of resistors.

The parts I offered do not have resistors.  They are just the special RGB Drive PCB, with the LED and wires.  They would use the current limiting resistors on your Howler instead.

[n3wt0n]

Hi everybody,

Just a quick update on this thread.

I have not heard back from Josh who runs Wolfware. This is where I got the Howler from.

I have just heard back from Paradise Arcade. They took a long time to get back to me. To the point where I almost didn't write back but I figure there are only so many places to get parts in this hobby so I better hear them out.

I have a couple other questions regarding the parts I already have in the forums that I will need to figure out before i order but I hope to get things ordered soon.

[AndyWarne]

I haven't talked to Andy at Ultimarc because I think a flat rate of 7.5 a button is a little steep for my budget but I would assume his buttons have an inline resistor as well. Is there anyone I am missing who may have an option for RGB buttons? I'm fairly new to the scene and may be overlooking some resources.

Our buttons also have resistors. The price is higher for the RGB as they have wiring and connectors included although admittedly this is mainly only a benefit when using our controllers. These have 20ma constant-current drivers so the LED brightness will be full regardless of whether the LEDs have resistors or not.

[matsadona]

The really odd thing about this part is that there is only one on the anode/cathode.  The resistor value is based on the voltage of the LED element.  Green and Blue are usually close enough to use the same resistor value, but Red is pretty much always higher in value (i.e. they are lower voltage).

And given that there is only one resistor, I'm not even sure how that is expected to work properly.  Resistors limit current, and the current required on the common connection will depend on how many of the LED elements are actually active at the time.  I.e. supposing that each element can handle 20ma, the load will vary between 20 and 60ma.  If the overall current is limited to 20ma, there wouldn't be enough current delivered to light each of them fully when all elements are active.  If limited to something higher, and only one element was active, then that element would be getting more current than it should, and likely cause damage.

I might be missing something, but they don't seem right.

Yes indeed, this is very odd. Someone in China didn't finish electronics school before starting his business

[n3wt0n]

Our buttons also have resistors. The price is higher for the RGB as they have wiring and connectors included although admittedly this is mainly only a benefit when using our controllers. These have 20ma constant-current drivers so the LED brightness will be full regardless of whether the LEDs have resistors or not.

Thank you for the info Andy. I appreciate you chiming in.