Best 4-way layout for defender+others? (was: Best 4-way joystick for defender?)

[Jimbo]

I'm making a dedicated 4-way panel, and wondered what the best 4-way is for Defender?  I realise Defender used a 2-way stick.

At the moment I'm planning on putting a 4-way Pac-Pro leaf joystick (GGG) in there but the spring seems really hard - which I can see would be great for some games but not so sure about Defender.

Has anyone tried Defender with a Pac-Pro?

Thanks

[Saneless]

I hate to keep bringing up the Zippy but it seems appropriate again. Loose springs, 2 way restrictor, inexpensive. Sounds right up your alley.

[paigeoliver]

The answer to your question is whatever stick you can use and still manage to comfortably hit the reverse button. I have microswitch based wicos on my multiwilliams panel.

[Jimbo]

Thanks - I think I'm ok with the reverse button (pretty much) with the pac pro...

My main concern is how hard the spring is, and how forceful the shaft return to center is.

Does anyone have a Defender cab or can offer insight into how the joystick behaves in this regard?

Thanks again

[yotsuya]

Thanks - I think I'm ok with the reverse button (pretty much) with the pac pro...

My main concern is how hard the spring is, and how forceful the shaft return to center is.

Does anyone have a Defender cab or can offer insight into how the joystick behaves in this regard?

Thanks again

Most of the Defenders I've played have been worn out, so the joystick usually goes in one direction and stays there.

[jimmer]

Thanks - I think I'm ok with the reverse button (pretty much) with the pac pro...

My main concern is how hard the spring is, and how forceful the shaft return to center is.

Does anyone have a Defender cab or can offer insight into how the joystick behaves in this regard?

Thanks again

The Defender joystick is very stiff. Sorry I don't have measuring equipment to quantify it, And I've not tried a Pac-pro.

Are you intending to swap 4way restriction to 2way? For me a lot of the pleasure of Defender comes from feeling at home with the controls, and the feel of the controls. A diamond restrictor doesn't do it for me.

You say you are making a dedicated 4way panel, does that mean swappable panels?  If so, I'd say make a dedicated Defender panel too.

[Jimbo]

Thanks for your reply.  I am making a rotatable control panel with 3 sides.  I have a spinner panel, a 2-player 8-way with trackball, and a 4-way dedicated.

I want to use the 4-way panel for all 4-way joystick games, but also button games like asteroids.  I love defender so I've also laid out the panel so this game can be played with the reverse button in the right place.  The pac-pro seems to take a fair bit of force to push up and down, and returns to center very quickly when you lessen pressure - strong spring.  I was wondering if this might cause issues in gameplay.

Alternative I suppose is to have a 4-way joy and a 2-way joy on the same panel...  (starts to look ugly then tho!)

Cheers

[Jimbo]

Here is the planned layout...

[jimmer]

On that panel, I could happily fit a Defender stick and left right buttons on the left hand side.

I have a panel like that, the reverse is in the hollow undr my palm, when I'mplaying Galaxian.

[jimmer]

PS. Swappable panels is way easier than rotatable. And you won't get stuck with not quite the layout you want.

[Jimbo]

PS. Swappable panels is way easier than rotatable. And you won't get stuck with not quite the layout you want.

I think I'm too far down that road now ...

Just seen this tho: http://www.arcadeshop.de/Miscellaneous-2-Way-Williams-Reprostick_1034.html

Bit expensive though, but could fit one on the left side of the panel as you suggest.  Hmm..

[jimmer]

That's not available anymore.

I'll be selling complete 2way sticks, and an upgrade kit for worn out defender sticks in about a months time.  So try to pick up a used one if you are in a rush... ahh just spotted you are in the UK, so that won't be easy.

Can you wait a month?

[Jimbo]

That's not available anymore.

I'll be selling complete 2way sticks, and an upgrade kit for worn out defender sticks in about a months time.  So try to pick up a used one if you are in a rush... ahh just spotted you are in the UK, so that won't be easy.

Can you wait a month?

Ah good to hear - yeah I can wait a month - so you're manufacturing a repro defender/williams stick? same dimensions, switch mechanism etc as the originals?  Sounds great.

[jimmer]

I'm doing a bearing kit to go in worn out originals, it replaces the need for the reproduction metalwork that's available already.
Or you can use it with that repo metalwork to make up a repro stick. I will have supplies of leaf springs and leaf contacts and handles.

And I'm doing a new stick (complete) that uses the same switchgear and will fit an original panel, but doesn't look like the original.

The kit/stick is called 'Zeroplay', and the best current player just used it to post 1M on max difficulty.

[Saneless]

I can't be the only one amused that jimbo and jimmer are the names of the guys going back and forth.

[Jimbo]

I'm doing a bearing kit to go in worn out originals, it replaces the need for the reproduction metalwork that's available already.
Or you can use it with that repo metalwork to make up a repro stick. I will have supplies of leaf springs and leaf contacts and handles.

And I'm doing a new stick (complete) that uses the same switchgear and will fit an original panel, but doesn't look like the original.

The kit/stick is called 'Zeroplay', and the best current player just used it to post 1M on max difficulty.

That sounds great. Nice vid   - I can wait a month for sure - I have 2 other panels to wire up before then anyway

I could fit it in on the left edge.  This design keeps the 4-way dead center of the panel, has buttons for most 2 or 4-way games, along with buttons spaced nicely for asteroids etc.  I tried another layout with the 2 joysticks next to each other in the center, but it pushed the buttons out to the edges too much, which I thought would be uncomfortable. And having the 4-way stick right of center just feels wrong.

This does make the panel look a little left-side-heavy tho.

[jimmer]

Move those RHS buttons to the right.
They look in the way for a RightHand player on the 4way.

For some reason I've never thought of combining Defender with a 4way stick. I've got spinners and trackballs sketched in that middle position though.  I put hyperspace up and just to the left of the 4 RH buttons.

[Jimbo]

OK this is the best I've come up with so far (providing I can get the defender joy off you in a month)

A bit more space around the 4-way, and it keeps (as much as possible) the original layouts of asteroids and defender/stargate.

Right-handed players can still use the Left and Right buttons for any 4-way games. And the whole panel generally looks more symetrical.

[BorgDog]

Now you just need to make the 2-way switchable from vertical for Defender to horizontal for Space Invaders.   

you seem to have a lot of extra/redundant buttons.  Here is what I plan on doing for mine, and I contemplated a second joystick instead of the trackball.  And I will use the upper yellow button for hyperspace, but you could easily add another below for your arrangement.   

[Saneless]

I would just worry that someone's arms will have to be off the mat or they'll constantly be hitting the buttons with that middle stick.

[Jimbo]

you seem to have a lot of extra/redundant buttons.  Here is what I plan on doing for mine, and I contemplated a second joystick instead of the trackball.  And I will use the upper yellow button for hyperspace, but you could easily add another below for your arrangement.   

Isn't the bottom button the hyperspace one?  what would you use the bottom button for?
EDIT: ok scratch that - defender smart bomb, right?

I would just worry that someone's arms will have to be off the mat or they'll constantly be hitting the buttons with that middle stick.

Hmm I suppose - personally I just have the palm/side of my hand touching the panel when using joysticks... guess it's more to do with the height of the panel (bearing in mind my CP will be angled down from horizontal by 10 degrees)?  How many of you guys would rest your whole arm on there when using a 4-way?   Weren't most 4-way panels in the arcades too thin to be able to rest your arm on anyway?

[jimmer]

What is the width and depth of your panel? I'll post some sketches when I know that.

[Jimbo]

What is the width and depth of your panel? I'll post some sketches when I know that.

Cheers... it's 550mm x 274mm.

You can see the rotating panel project here: -
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,141562.msg1467636.html#msg1467636

[Saneless]

How many of you guys would rest your whole arm on there when using a 4-way?   Weren't most 4-way panels in the arcades too thin to be able to rest your arm on anyway?

Normally not, but with the buttons lower and the joysticks more up, I'd be more likely to have more of my wrist and arm because of the distance.

[jimmer]

This my Defender layout, it's a bit odd becasue I thrust with my thumb, but you could use a standard Stargate pattern for the 4 buttons like you've drawn.

The important thing is the buttons on the right need to be high (higher than the real machine) if you want to be square to the screen.

I also like a lot of land for my palms to rest on (again the arcade machine was too narrow and had a sharp edge).

[Jimbo]

Thanks for that - I've had a shuffle about - taking on board your suggestions...

[BorgDog]

Thanks for that - I've had a shuffle about - taking on board your suggestions...

That's looking better!

[Jimbo]

That's not available anymore.

I'll be selling complete 2way sticks, and an upgrade kit for worn out defender sticks in about a months time.  So try to pick up a used one if you are in a rush... ahh just spotted you are in the UK, so that won't be easy.

Can you wait a month?

Ah good to hear - yeah I can wait a month - so you're manufacturing a repro defender/williams stick? same dimensions, switch mechanism etc as the originals?  Sounds great.

Hey Jimmer...

How's your 2way stick coming on?  Keen to get one off you when ready.

[jimmer]

Hey Jimmer...

How's your 2way stick coming on?  Keen to get one off you when ready.

I haven't drawn up my sheet steel yet. So the new 2way is at least 5/6 weeks away.

Although while thinking about this yesterday I did come up with a plastic housing that I can make myself, hmmm

But my mod kit will be ready just after Xmas. So if you are in a rush, there are old Defender and Joust sticks on KLOV all the time. pm me if you want to go that route, I could get a pair of joust sticks and do it all for you, including swapping in a Red defender handle.

[Jimbo]

PM sent -