Shortest/Longest distance between joystick and PB

[mimic]

What is the shortest (known to you) distance from center of joystick to center of push button
and same question but longest distance? (Can you give me some real life game examples?)
TIA

[PL1]

Closest that I can think of is the reverse button on Defender and Stargate.

 


Scott

[mimic]

Closest that I can think of is the reverse button on Defender and Stargate.

 


Scott

This is more for a thumb though, isn't it? Let me refine my question what is shortest/longest for like a shooter or a fighter type of game and for index finger.

[PL1]

This is more for a thumb though, isn't it?

Yes.  The idea is to hit the reverse button with your left thumb without releasing the joystick.


Scott

[Xiaou2]

What does it matter ?

  You can put a button right next to a sticks base, and there shouldnt be any problem operating it, as your button hand is much lower than the topmost shaft movement range.

 The only exception, might be a very low profile stick, maybe something like a Nintendo mini stick, as seen on games like RType.

 Other than that, proximity doesnt matter.   (just look at how close your fingers and hands are, on a Laptop keyboard.

  You can also put the button slightly under the stick..  in a slight diagonal.  Not completely below.. as the pad area of the stick hand would hit the fingers on the button hand.

[IAmDotorg]

Other than that, proximity doesnt matter.   (just look at how close your fingers and hands are, on a Laptop keyboard.

If that was true, there wouldn't be such a thing as ergonomic keyboards. Proximity does matter, quite a bit, because if you end up using the controls (or keyboard) with an angle through your wrist, it'll lead to fatigue or things like carpal tunnel. You can put them close together, but you need to properly set the angle on the buttons so you don't need to have your wrist all bent to the side. You can see that in the evolution of arcade cabinets -- generally the closer the buttons are to the joystick, the more of an angle they're set at. And frequently if you have a two player cabinet, they'll angle both sets outwards a little to keep the players from having to twist their wrists even farther because of being next to each other.

That wasn't really understood back in the 80's and 90's (which is why keyboards were equally bad), but it is now, which is why you rarely see new cabinets with straight grid layouts and the buttons jammed right up against the stick.

[Vigo]

To be fair, in the 70's and 80's there was no realized need for ergonomics for an arcade game that the average player would be playing for 2 minutes at a time. and I'm sure computer companies were just happy if they could build a keyboard where all the keys simply registered the keystroke on the first press. Ergonomics was a known concept, maybe a bit less developed, but I have some 80's workplace training videos at work that cover it.

[Generic Eric]

I think the neo-geo, street fighter and multi williams layouts are a decent guides.

Also, Klaus:

[Xiaou2]

Other than that, proximity doesnt matter.   (just look at how close your fingers and hands are, on a Laptop keyboard.

If that was true, there wouldn't be such a thing as ergonomic keyboards. Proximity does matter, quite a bit, because if you end up using the controls (or keyboard) with an angle through your wrist, it'll lead to fatigue or things like carpal tunnel. You can put them close together, but you need to properly set the angle on the buttons so you don't need to have your wrist all bent to the side. You can see that in the evolution of arcade cabinets -- generally the closer the buttons are to the joystick, the more of an angle they're set at. And frequently if you have a two player cabinet, they'll angle both sets outwards a little to keep the players from having to twist their wrists even farther because of being next to each other.

That wasn't really understood back in the 80's and 90's (which is why keyboards were equally bad), but it is now, which is why you rarely see new cabinets with straight grid layouts and the buttons jammed right up against the stick.

 He asked how    "FAR"   ,     ***  NOT  ***     what Angle.


 And your completely wrong about the Ergonamics in the 80s crap.

 First, see Gauntlet.

 Next, play a game of Star Wars, on an original controller.   See those angled handles?   You know why?  Try making the same up and down motion in the air, with and without an angle.   Notice how your wrist wont go as far when they only move in the vertical plane?

 The arcades games were designed and tested FAR more than games these days.   And mechanically speaking...  many of the controllers went through many revisions and countless abuse tests, before they were considered the final produced product that would go on the machines.


 Now, if your talking about most of those idiotic 'curved' button layouts... well, that was and still IS a joke.   Its a farce.   It actually makes it far less ergnomic...  as it produces stresses from the flatter hand position, that has less mechanical leverage to operate it.   Not to mention,  that everyones finger spacing is going to be vastly different from a flat layout... meaning that such a layout will be Completely unplayable.

 Not to mention, that All of these layouts need to be used with the Flat of Convex buttons... which are far less comfortable.    Ever wonder why... (before the advent of cost saving and 'style')  keyboards have a cupped shape?  Yup... its to help keep them comfortably centered, so you dont slip off the key.  So you know where your fingers actually are... and can feel and adjust, if you start to get too far off.... all without Looking  (which is another reason why the keys are placed in a straight line.   Angle, sure.. as needed...  but angle them all along the same line angle)

 If anyone has seen an elder cabinet with poor button spacing - without an angle... then you have probably just witnessed an Operators "Conversion Kit".   Ops often drilled holes wherever they felt like it... despite instruction diagrams often provided.   Some used existing cabs, and used them As-IS.... rather than the change the control panel.    Hence, it was a fault of the Ops, and not the arcade companies.

 If some faults exist... then its a very Rare exception to the rule... and probably was never repeated again.

[Xiaou2]

Ohh, and Btw ...   As I type all of these massive Walls of text...  for the many years Ive done so... I do not have any Carple Tunnel issues...
YET... my wrist are currently bent at the forearm - to form about a 35 to 45 degree angle,  while typing on this Laptop.

 The wrists are made to flex a bit, and thats not really the big issue in such injuries.   The problem comes from a constant, no-rest,  usage... and the person not flexing and stretching the wrists often..  using a full range of motion roll and or shake.

 As such, the muscles and tendons get way too tight... and start to knot up, and things get Ugly from there.

 Many people have back injuries due to a similar reason.   If your back into stretched and flexible... the muscles will be taught.  If the muscles twitch suddenly, and voilently..  they will pull the very bones they are connected to, out of place.   Hence, often need a Chiropractor to pop them back in place... as well as a lot of rest and relaxation, for the swelling, tearing, and injured / inflamed areas... to get back to normal.

 So, if you are doing something with incredible intensity... non stop, rapidly...  take many short breaks, and roll, stretch, and shake out the stress.   Take a few deep breaths in and out to increase the O2 content, as well as to increase bloodflow pressure... and shake the blood back into the area of tension.   As often, a tense area of use can get places where the tension has caused bloodflow to be weak in certain areas... and that compounds the issue over time.

 This is why its so important in any straining situation, to breath regularly rather than to clam up and hold your breath.   And why things like Martial arts...  Tai Chi, Qigong,  and even Yoga... promote and create great positive health changes.   Slow deep constantly intense breathing, with the motions.  Super saturation of o2, with a relaxed state of the body.   Relaxed and flexible muscles, that work with fluidity, and graceful 'pinpoint precision' control.

[IAmDotorg]

I was about to ask who this Xiaou2 clown is, but a search of this forum pretty much explained this tripe.

There should be a sticky warning people about him.

[BadMouth]

What is the shortest (known to you) distance from center of joystick to center of push button
and same question but longest distance? (Can you give me some real life game examples?)
TIA

Some of the 4 player games that tried to squeeze all the players on one side of the machine had action buttons pretty close to the joystick base.
(simpsons, nba jam, tmnt)

Why do you ask?
Are you considering building something that is extremely close or far?

Don't have measurements handy at the moment, but I spread mine out a couple inches farther than usual based on what felt comfortable and having a 34" wide CP to work with for only 2 players.  (and the buttons are grouped as tightly together as is possible)

Here are some layouts from original machines on slagcoin if you haven't seen them yet.
http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html

[solar]

The ones on my bartop are as close as you can get them. Not because i had limited space (i did - its only a 19" 2 player control panel) but just that they ended up being the most comfortable distances...minus the limitations on the nuts on the rear of the buttons.

I've got it drawn up somewhere if you wanted to see just how close everything is.

But if you're building something custom i'd just go with what suits your preference. If its just curiosity then have at it.

[Malenko]

welp I have my new panel that's based on NBA Jam/Open Ice, about 37" wide, joysticks altered to be all on the same horizontal line (to allow for 2 player Smash TV, Karate Champ, etc) but players 1 and 4 have their buttons pretty close to stock, but adjusted to compensate for the joystick move. Picture attached.

[Vigo]

I was about to ask who this Xiaou2 clown is, but a search of this forum pretty much explained this tripe.

There should be a sticky warning people about him.

We hung a warning sign on the front yard fence. 

[Xiaou2]

I was about to ask who this Xiaou2 clown is, but a search of this forum pretty much explained this tripe.

There should be a sticky warning people about him.

 Please not the area of disagreement, with backing proof rebuttal.


 Best Regards,
 Xiaou2

 Aka  'Clown'
 

[Vigo]

I'm glad you like the sign. 

[Xiaou2]

welp I have my new panel that's based on NBA Jam/Open Ice, about 37" wide, joysticks altered to be all on the same horizontal line (to allow for 2 player Smash TV, Karate Champ, etc) but players 1 and 4 have their buttons pretty close to stock, but adjusted to compensate for the joystick move. Picture attached.

 Heya Malenko,

   You may have some issues with that layout... most specifically, the right side players joystick arm... well his elbow will be infringing on the left side players button arms elbow.   Unless both parties are willing to do an extended arm elbow tuck...

[Malenko]

.

[Malenko]

Heya Malenko,

   You may have some issues with that layout... most specifically, the right side players joystick arm... well his elbow will be infringing on the left side players button arms elbow.   Unless both parties are willing to do an extended arm elbow tuck...

I'll only acknowledge this because you appear to be sincere and trying to be helpful.  The sticks are within an inch vertically of where they were located on NBA Jam/NFL Blitz/NHL Open Ice/etc . On the Midway sports games, player 1 was the highest up, then each stick went down a little as you went to the right, with the 4th player being the lowest.  Horizontally they are exactly the same.  Ive played as player 4 on all those games at one time or another without any issue, so Im sure they'll be just fine.  Typically (at least in my experiences) the 1 and 4 players don't stand directly in front of the machine, but they stand at more of an angle. Player 4s buttons were moved down a bit (about 1.5") for comforts sake. God bless cardboard mock ups.

[mimic]

holly crap I only asked for numbers, not some kind of philosophy behind it. And if you have experience with the game that the numbers belong and tell me if it felt comfortable and natural that would be a bonus, that's all
TIA

[mimic]

What is the shortest (known to you) distance from center of joystick to center of push button
and same question but longest distance? (Can you give me some real life game examples?)
TIA

Some of the 4 player games that tried to squeeze all the players on one side of the machine had action buttons pretty close to the joystick base.
(simpsons, nba jam, tmnt)

Why do you ask?
Are you considering building something that is extremely close or far?

Don't have measurements handy at the moment, but I spread mine out a couple inches farther than usual based on what felt comfortable and having a 34" wide CP to work with for only 2 players.  (and the buttons are grouped as tightly together as is possible)

Here are some layouts from original machines on slagcoin if you haven't seen them yet.
http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html

Yes, thx for the answer right on topic. I'm trying to build something more compact other than a wing

[lamprey]

You can only get so close to the joystick anyway due to the size of the joysticks' "chassis." Unless of course you had a long shaft and shot buttons; then you might be able to "stack" them. But, that seems rather unrealistic. Unfortunately, I don't have any numbers, but my advice would be to get some cardboard and model/test it out.

For reference, my buttons are within 1/4" of the joystick chassis or about 2.25" from the shaft:

[mimic]

How's your comfort level with push buttons being so close? Do you experience any coordination issues?

[lamprey]

How's your comfort level with push buttons being so close? Do you experience any coordination issues?

Honestly, I haven't finished with my build, thus I really don't have any play time. But, I have a little mini-bartop that I made where things are pretty tight as well and I played it quite a bit without discomfort.

Pic for reference: