Thinking of doing an 8-way joystick shootout...

[shponglefan]

Awhile back I did a 4 way joystick shootout.  It seemed to be useful to people, so now I'm thinking of doing an 8-way joystick shootout.  With all the "what joystick should I buy", it might be useful to some people...

Right now I have on hand the following 8 way sticks: Happ Super, Sanwa JLF, Sanwa JLW-TM, Sanwa JLW-UM, Seimitsu LS-32-02, Seimitsu LS-56, and Ultrastik 360.  I'm also thinking of ordering some additional sticks to try out (probably 8-way Leaf-Pro, maybe Happ Competition...).  If there are any others worth adding to the mix, let me know.

For games, any suggestions on what to test?  I'd do a mix of game types (i.e. fighting game, beat-em-up, shooter, side-scroller, etc).  Probably a mix of classic games and newer ones.

The big challenge will be rigging up a test bed to go through so many sticks in a consistent fashion.

[DeLuSioNal29]

Great idea!  I love it.  Can't wait to see the end result.   

Also, although it's pretty pricey, how about adding the perfect 360 by Happ?  Do you think it's worth it?

DeLuSioNaL29

[mgb]

Sounds like a great idea. I look forward to seeing your results. Are the sticks gonna be pretty much stock?
Some things that may worth while doing are swapping some different parts such as restrictors and switches.

Just an example, I use Sanwa JLWs but I don't like the switches or square gates they use, so for a dedicated 8 way, I installed cherry switches (like supers used to have), a round gate and a stiffer spring and the stick feels awesome.

I think your list is pretty complete but you may wanna add zippyys. A lot of guys here recomend them, I personally think they're sloppy and cheap feeling but they are decently priced.

I also think the supers and comps catch a lot of flack but they are good 8-way sticks. I prefer them for fighters but I'm a very casual below average fighter player.

Some games that seem to me to be good test subjects would be, of course fighters and vertical shooters like you said, as well as classics such as Robotron.

Have you considered also comparing Crown joysticks. Rather than having a centering spring, they use a centering grommet like the old wicos (only not as stiff) I recently picked one up and it has a decent feel but I haven't yet used it for playing games. A slightly stiffer centering grommett would have been nice though.

[SpatzST]

please do

[PL1]

Felsir and I were talking here on the wiki about how to help people narrow down the myriad of alternatives to a small handful of joysticks best suited to certain categories/genres of games.

If we can define a good list of game categories + related desirable characteristics and test individual sticks for those characteristics, it should help people eliminate unsuitable sticks and/or prioritize their options.

What type of joystick should I get for my build?

This is a common question that seems like it belongs in the FAQ. Perhaps include one list of game categories/desirable characteristics and another list of commonly used sticks/characteristics like this: (check/verify data)

Game categories/genres

90's fighters - Med/long throw, circular restriction

Old-school 4-way games - Physical restriction so you can "ride the restrictor"

Twitchy SHMUP - Short throw, med/easy diagonals

Stick characteristics

Happ Competition - Med/long throw, med/hard diagonals, circular restriction

Sanwa JLF - Med/short throw, swappable 4+8-way/circular/octagonal restrictors

Seimitsu LS-32 Short Shaft - Medium throw, many choose to modify the 4-way part of the restrictor plate PL1 (talk) 07:36, 27 February 2014 (EST)

        Do we have a list for this? I'm a bit hesitant to suggest specific brands of joysticks- is it possible to make such a list with "what to look for" like short throw or long shaft? (now I think of it, that might be information that is missing in the joystick page- some joystick terminology)Felsir (talk) 03:32, 27 February 2014 (EST)

    There's no list that I know of. Maybe we need a short generic answer in the FAQ that sends readers to a more in-depth topic on the joystick page. I agree about defining terms like throw distance and shaft length on the Joysticks page and adding some illustrations as needed. Updated the proposal text above. This will make it possible for us to independently refine the genre/stick descriptions. We may also want to steer readers to Kowal's site for his more in-depth stick measurements/reviews. PL1 (talk) 07:36, 27 February 2014 (EST)

Scott

[keilmillerjr]

Walka walka walka walka walka.

Pacman and Donkey Kong is a good 4-way.
Contra is a good side scroller.
1941 is a good shooter.
Street Fighter is a good fighter game.

I'd only stick to a single popular game in each category you can think of.

[PL1]

I like the idea of adding a specific game title to each category/genre to more clearly define it.   

i.e. 90's fighters (Mortal Kombat) - Med/long throw, circular restriction


Scott

[Generic Eric]

What an undertaking!

What is your objective?  Is it to find the best 8 way for a "sample size" of games?  Or is it to find which stick works best for a particular game?  Or category of games?

I'd like to read an overview on the mechanics of each of the joysticks with diagrams and photography with circles and arrows and a paragraph explaining the function of each component in the sub-assembly, thereby describing the overall assembly.

Aside from that, if we could get some Mythbuster's style highspeed photography, that would be cool too.

[PL1]

I'd like to read an overview on the mechanics of each of the joysticks with diagrams and photography with circles and arrows and a paragraph explaining the function of each component in the sub-assembly, thereby describing the overall assembly.

Maybe something like what Slagcoin has here?


Scott

[shponglefan]

What is your objective?  Is it to find the best 8 way for a "sample size" of games?  Or is it to find which stick works best for a particular game?  Or category of games?

The goal is to determine which joysticks work best for individual genres, as well as which joysticks work better overall.

Aside from that, if we could get some Mythbuster's style highspeed photography, that would be cool too.

Sure, if someone wants to finance a high-speed camera.   

[shponglefan]

Sounds like a great idea. I look forward to seeing your results. Are the sticks gonna be pretty much stock?
Some things that may worth while doing are swapping some different parts such as restrictors and switches.

I plan to do stock testing.  Given the number of sticks I may end up testing, adding custom springs, switches, etc., would increase the work exponentially.

Have you considered also comparing Crown joysticks. Rather than having a centering spring, they use a centering grommet like the old wicos (only not as stiff) I recently picked one up and it has a decent feel but I haven't yet used it for playing games. A slightly stiffer centering grommett would have been nice though.

I'm not familiar with Crown joysticks.  I'm not even sure where to buy them?

[Dungeonsdeep]

As someone about to purchase their first set of controls. I am very interested! Hope it happens soon. 

[Generic Eric]

What is your objective?  Is it to find the best 8 way for a "sample size" of games?  Or is it to find which stick works best for a particular game?  Or category of games?

The goal is to determine which joysticks work best for individual genres, as well as which joysticks work better overall.

Best of luck.  One day, I hope to a VSHUMP, R₂2L, Fighter Cab instead of a singular MAME cab.  I would definitely benefit from your study

I'd like to read an overview on the mechanics of each of the joysticks with diagrams and photography with circles and arrows and a paragraph explaining the function of each component in the sub-assembly, thereby describing the overall assembly.

Maybe something like what Slagcoin has here?

Scott

Slagcoin is quite in depth.   Thanks

[RandyT]

In the end, something like this would really be an opinion piece.  There are some who love the Japanese style sticks, and some who would much rather use the US style.  All sticks do a reasonable job for which they were intended, and the number of options out there are a good indicator that personal preference, and specific game type, play a big role.  There's also the "what if I try to use it for 4-way games" angle.  Otherwise, there would be one design, and everyone would copy it.

IMHO, the Super-Pro Leaf 8-way would be a "dark horse" contender in an 8-way shoot out.  But even so, if one has "cut their teeth" on the Japanese style sticks, it won't matter to them how well it performs.

[PL1]

I agree that it can easily become opinion-heavy, but choosing the right measurement criteria can keep it a bit more objective.

Most of the headings in the Retroblast Joystick Roundup seem like a good starting point -- individual stick writetups here.

* Degrees to Engage
* Maximum Travel (Degrees)
* Range of Diagonals (Degrees)
* Pressure to Engage
* Sound (1=Noisy, 5=Silent)
* Install (1=Hard, 5=Easy)
* Rotation (1=Hard, 5=Easy)
* Diagonals (1=Hard, 5=Easy)
* Stick Height (inches)
* Stick Diameter (inches)
* Install Footprint (inches)
* Unique Features
* Cost

IIRC Kowal doesn't care much for the Retroblast stick reviews -- perhaps some of the extensive reviews he has done here could be compiled and translated (some writeups are only in Polish) into a similar chart.


Scott

[shponglefan]

As someone about to purchase their first set of controls. I am very interested! Hope it happens soon. 

At minimum it will be at least a month, especially so if I opt to order any sticks above what I already have.  The main time lag is building a modular rig to test out all these sticks.

[shponglefan]

In the end, something like this would really be an opinion piece.

Oh absolutely and I wouldn't pretend otherwise.  It's simply going to me trying out different joysticks with various games and ranking which ones perform better.  And some discussion of general playability and features of different sticks.

This isn't going to be a scientific study by any stretch 

[Generic Eric]

Can anyone think of a way to do a double blind test?  I might have put you of by referencing Alice's Restaurant,  but I really think the more objective the better.

I think the ideal scenario would be multiple fight sticks rather than a panel with a bunch of sticks.

Either way I'm looking forward to your research.

[Xiaou2]

No real Wico 8way leafs?

 How will you play Robotron well?   Plus, Wicos buttery smooth non-shock feel.. is so much nicer
on the hands and even the soul.   Theres no loud clicky clack and harsh "smack".  Its just fluffy clouds and laser beams.

[keilmillerjr]

I agree that it can easily become opinion-heavy, but choosing the right measurement criteria can keep it a bit more objective.

Most of the headings in the Retroblast Joystick Roundup seem like a good starting point -- individual stick writetups here.

* Degrees to Engage
* Maximum Travel (Degrees)
* Range of Diagonals (Degrees)
* Pressure to Engage
* Sound (1=Noisy, 5=Silent)
* Install (1=Hard, 5=Easy)
* Rotation (1=Hard, 5=Easy)
* Diagonals (1=Hard, 5=Easy)
* Stick Height (inches)
* Stick Diameter (inches)
* Install Footprint (inches)
* Unique Features
* Cost

IIRC Kowal doesn't care much for the Retroblast stick reviews -- perhaps some of the extensive reviews he has done here could be compiled and translated (some writeups are only in Polish) into a similar chart.


Scott

Keep in mind that some sticks can be customized beyond belief, like the JLF I have. Round and bat knobs, silent switches, different spring rates, different throw cones, 4/8/octagon gates, etc. There probably are other sticks like this too.

[shponglefan]

Can anyone think of a way to do a double blind test?  I might have put you of by referencing Alice's Restaurant,  but I really think the more objective the better.

No idea what Alice's Restaurant is, so yeah, I missed the reference.  I'm not really sure how objective one can get, however.  I mean, yeah, I can do measurements 'n stuff, but what it really comes down to is personal feel, comfort, and playability.  I suppose one objective test could be in game performance... but not sure I'm going to go that route specifically.

I think the ideal scenario would be multiple fight sticks rather than a panel with a bunch of sticks.

Either way I'm looking forward to your research.

The most likely set up will be a modular fight stick, with a removable joystick panel and using molex connectors to swap out sticks easily.  I don't have enough encoders at the moment to build completely separate sticks for as many joysticks as I'd like to test...

[PL1]

Keep in mind that some sticks can be customized beyond belief, like the JLF I have. Round and bat knobs, silent switches, different spring rates, different throw cones, 4/8/octagon gates, etc. There probably are other sticks like this too.

The only way to keep this manageable is to test the stock stick and mention the commonly available options.


Scott

[mgb]

If you are interested in looking into Crowns, both Paradise Arcade and Focus Attack sell them.
They have a nice round motion to them but the stock switches are clicky so they're best with soft switches or cherries

[Generic Eric]

Can anyone think of a way to do a double blind test?  I might have put you of by referencing Alice's Restaurant,  but I really think the more objective the better.

No idea what Alice's Restaurant is, so yeah, I missed the reference.

It's the quintessential Thanksgiving movie staring your favorite folk singer Arlo Guthrie .   Watch with your friends.   
don't watch with strangers; it takes a weird turn

[mnewt]

Whilst these things tend to be very subjective, I found the write up of the four way stick shoot-out be very informative. I very much look forward to reading this one. Personally, I'd like to see some comparison to the 8 way GGG leaf pro if at all possible as i haven't seen many opinions voiced about this stick

[Benzinbruder]

I'd be very interested in the results as well!

If you have the items at hand, it would also be interesting to compare a stock (e.g.) JLF to a modded stick of the same type as well - but maybe that should be covered in a dedicated thread...

For a starting point, I think a decent 8-way comparison would help a lot of people that are looking for support for choosing the right equipment for their first build!
Heck, even I partly decided which allround / 8-way stick to buy after reading your 4-way (!) shootout.