A different approach to a custom shifter

[Howard_Casto]

Ok so I was looking through one of my junk piles for phone cables and I ran across this:

http://www.geocities.ws/myhalfsale/joystick.html

I was in office max one day and they had a pile of em for around 1.25 a pop.  I figured that I might use them for a hack one day... I started to make a sw yoke out of the handles... but eh they've just been lying around. 

So what do you guys think about using one of these as a shifter?  I know the big companies use analog ones at this point and I'll have to use a teensy for output lamps and misc buttons anyway (VR buttons, ect).  I was thinking instead of unreliable software based solutions, the translation of the analog values to button presses could be done internally.  I could even get fancy with some help from the avr programmer types (I'm still a beginner).  Maybe use the two buttons to allow for programming?

Hardware wise a person wouldn't have to do too much to it.  The base is really small and full of empty space, so it'd be easy to screw it down.  The joystick is of course spring loaded on a ball joint and the joystick grip actually screws off, exposing a shaft complete with screw holes.

[BadMouth]

Based on similar PC sticks, I think the spring action would be too spongy on its own.
If it were at the bottom of an apparatus that gave a more solid feel, then maybe.
But then the more solid feel might encourage the user to be rougher with it.
Not sure it could take the abuse of being a shifter.

Just my 2 cents.

[SegaOutrun]

http://hrsim.blogspot.com/2010/04/joystick-cruelty.html

like that?

i gotta agree with badmouth, i dont think it would take the beating. i feel like im going to break my act labs shifter all the time.

speaking of shifter projects, im currently making an up/down shifter out a on old 4/8way bat joystick. basically im making a restrictor to make it only travel 2 way. 

[Generic Eric]

I bought a logitech wingman extreme with serial to usb adapter which was used in a DIY H Shifter I saw on thewayiplay.com.  Of course it is still on a shelf, but one day...

[Howard_Casto]

Well it's funny you guys mention that.  I've just spent the last hour or so intentionally twisting the crap out of it to try and break it.  So far it's held up ok..... not even a creak surprisingly.  I think I might put a longer shaft on it tomorrow and see if it's still ok. 

I should probably clarify though.  I didn't mean just mount it as-is like a boot-style shifter.  I mean to use it as the ball joint/electronics at the bottom of a h-shifter box.  So there would be a groove pattern in the top of the box preventing it from over-traveling.  The springs are a tad weak, but they just screw on.  I can probably replace them with something sturdier. 

I was playing around with shifter designs last month and the issue/weak point always seems to be the joint at the bottom.  Either people use a big old spring, and the thing is kind of unwieldy or they use an over-engineered, custom milled ball joint, which certainly works... if you want to spent 100+ on a shifter build.  I've got other ideas though.... I've got these odd-ball Australian sticks.  They don't use springs but rather this gigantic rubber grommet.  That could probably be used for quiet mounting as well. 

I know a couple of guys that went the FF shifter route btw... the motor on the stick burnt out after a while.  It's probably better to save that one for Afterburner. 

[Xiaou2]

I made a few attempts at hacking analog sticks with hard spring controllers.

 One such device was my custom Sinistar controller.   It uses a  Rubber  "X"  made out of bike inner tubes... as the
center spring.

 However, the pressures that were created.. caused the entire shell of the stick to warp and finally break apart.

 Eventually I found a sturdy enough shell.  I believe it was the Foxfire pro  or something like that... by thrustmaster.
It had very small pots..  the kind that are probably put into those thunbsticks these days.   And the assembly was very rigid, with a strong shaft.   I further increased that strength, but inserting a metal shaft into the cut down plastic shaft.  After that.. is was solid as a rock.

 Also note, you wouldnt want to hack a cheese stick for yoke handles.. because they often have horrible buttons.. with high fatigue pressure levels.  As well as very thin plastic that creaks and warps under even mild strain.   Its best to feel the thing first, and see if its flex and buttons are decent.. as well as the comfort of the grip.  Often the grip may fit one hand well.. but feel really bad for someone else.

 Analog shifters are great IMO, because they can be configured in so many ways.. and not have so many costly and failable mechanical parts.  They are smooth as glass.. and silent in activation.

 Take a look at Race Drivins shifter.  Its quite simple but ingenious.   Its a shaft welded to a door hinge!   The hinge is on a shaft that rocks back and forth..  and the shifter is on the other side of the hinge.. to swing left to right.   They use simple crank arms to drive pots.

 On the middle pivot shaft, they have a spring loaded roller wheel.   As the shifter is moved, the wheel rotates, and when in place, the spring-wheel locks into a small half-circle pit.

 Its actually quite simple and fairly cheap to build.  You wouldnt even need to weld it..  as you could use epoxy putty.. and or just screw the shaft to the hinge itself.

 The most expensive thing is merely the metal shafts.. but you could break apart nearly anything for them.. and or just spend the 7$  at the hardware store for them.

 Do remember, that shifters tend to be Slammed very hard into gear... because the action gets intense.  Without decent shaft strength and good strong mechanical design..  the unit will tear itself to pieces in a few uses tops.


 

[Xiaou2]

I think Ill also mention that you have to consider the Angles and Shaft thickness as well, when designing the H-plate.

 The plate itself has to be thick so as not to be cutting into the shaft.   Use of a Poly Cutting board or two, would probably work.

 The angle ranges of the sticks shaft also matters.. because you dont want to have to move your shifter two miles from left to right.    And if you choose a shaft thats too thick.. you wont easily be able to make an H-Plate thats strong enough. The middle fingers would crack if too thin.    If the shaft is too thin..  it could bend from heavy impact.

 Id tried two attempts to make a shifter with Micros and failed.   I might be able to do it now that Im more experienced. However, seeing the Race Drivin shifter now..  Id more readily replicate that anyways.  Its far superior to anything Ive ever experienced..  Its proven in the field for durability, very realistic and accurate, and fairly easy to replicate.

Edit:

 Also note that if your analog shaft does not travel far enough.. it may not calibrate properly in windows and or work well in mame.   This is why something like Race Drivin, uses a crank arm setup to create a geared like response.  Making less travel with the shaft  .. but more travel on the Pots.

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah this particular stick is an odd beast.  It uses metal buttons internally with a metal return spring on each button... they are kind of similar to cherry switches used on old keyboards.  It doesn't use pots either, they are sliders like the ones used in old 70's radios. 

I share everyone's concern about the joint though... I'm going to keep looking for now, but I'll throw it in the maybe pile.  The main reason I liked it was I would have to fiddle with creating linkages and what-not to figure out how to turn the pots... that stuff is taken care of. 

A door hinge huh?.... hmm... let me see what I can come up with. 

[Xiaou2]

Ive been meaning to make some vids about various controllers.  Ill try to capture one with my phone cam and see how it goes.   Ive managed to get hold of a Race Drivin Shifter.   Only issue will be getting the lighting right.. because everything is contained in the metal tube assembly.

 Try for tomorrow, but probably a weekend upload.


 Also, yeah... I know what you mean about that stick. I think I had one actually.  The buttons are quite stiff.. sound really loud, and as far as I recall, the housing wasnt good with strain.


 Laters

[BadMouth]

  It doesn't use pots either, they are sliders like the ones used in old 70's radios. 

That's standard for the old gameport trigger sticks.  The only ones that used pots looked like a big square box with a tiny little stick sticking up not very far.  (and it was always textured in a way that would tear up your thumb if you tried to use it as a thumbstick).

[HaRuMaN]

Wait wait wait...

Geocities is still around? 

[Generic Eric]

I bought a logitech wingman extreme with serial to usb adapter which was used in a DIY H Shifter I saw on thewayiplay.com.  Of course it is still on a shelf, but one day...

http://www.thewayiplay.com/mainforum/index.php?topic=1937.0

[BadMouth]

I bought a logitech wingman extreme with serial to usb adapter which was used in a DIY H Shifter I saw on thewayiplay.com.  Of course it is still on a shelf, but one day...

http://www.thewayiplay.com/mainforum/index.php?topic=1937.0

I saw another home built shifter with that part cut out of a fairly thick plastic cutting board.
The end product looked like it was made out of the plastic that machinists make stuff out of.
I would think the plastic would be much more durable.

[Generic Eric]

I bought a logitech wingman extreme with serial to usb adapter which was used in a DIY H Shifter I saw on thewayiplay.com.  Of course it is still on a shelf, but one day...

http://www.thewayiplay.com/mainforum/index.php?topic=1937.0

I saw another home built shifter with that part cut out of a fairly thick plastic cutting board.
The end product looked like it was made out of the plastic that machinists make stuff out of.
I would think the plastic would be much more durable.

Word

The cutting boards are pretty popular there too.  That same poster had made a previous shifter out of cutting board material.  Can't say why he changed.

[Howard_Casto]

Probably because the stuff eats up bits like nobody's business and makes a huge mess.  Imho it's still worth the effort, but you know how some people are. 

HaRuMaN:  Yup it's still there apparently.  I liked the irony of linking to a picture of a stick from 1997 on a Geocities site. 

[Howard_Casto]

I bought a logitech wingman extreme with serial to usb adapter which was used in a DIY H Shifter I saw on thewayiplay.com.  Of course it is still on a shelf, but one day...

http://www.thewayiplay.com/mainforum/index.php?topic=1937.0

I'm a little confused in regards to this one.  Isn't that a FF stick?  I was thinking they were using the motors as shift positions but this looks like something different.  It's quite similar to what I originally proposed though... just with a bigger stick.

[Howard_Casto]

Oh I've got another question btw. 

What do you guys think in regards to the number of gears?  I can't think of anything that would really need more than 6 and that would be a cleaner design, but maybe 7 or 8 for reverse? 

Symmetrically speaking, 6 seems to make more sense... your joystick will naturally rest between 2 and 5, allowing for a person to easily make a hi/lo or up/down restrictor plate.  With 8 I just don't know. 

[BadMouth]

Oh I've got another question btw. 

What do you guys think in regards to the number of gears?  I can't think of anything that would really need more than 6 and that would be a cleaner design, but maybe 7 or 8 for reverse? 

Symmetrically speaking, 6 seems to make more sense... your joystick will naturally rest between 2 and 5, allowing for a person to easily make a hi/lo or up/down restrictor plate.  With 8 I just don't know.

Having multiple options, my personal preference is to use the paddle shifters for games with more than 4 gears.

If you're going to have 6 though, also have reverse.
Any game that allows the use of a 6 speed is also going to require reverse.
I'm not aware of any games that use a 5 speed.

If I were building something from scratch, I'd use the Ferrari shift gate:


The G27 shifter has you push down on the shifter and put it in 6th gear for reverse.
I'm not a big fan of it.

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah I'm aware of the reverse gears issue with the G27 and it's questionable design in general, it's the main reason I decided to scratch build instead of upgrading.  I thought that I'd be getting a value what with better pedals and the shifter and what not until I realized that the pedals could be purchased separately and the shifter wasn't all it's cracked up to be. 

They are pretty great quality if you don't like to fiddle with things, but unfortunately I have the fiddlers disease or else I wouldn't be on these forums in the first place.

I've found a couple of things in the old junk drawer to upgrade the donor wheel you sent me... I'll post those as I have time this week.  I *think* with a trip to the hardware store and around 50-75 bucks in parts I can construct us an off the shelf equivalent of the happ wheel driven by the old gp/gt control boards.  After Eric made that post it kind of inspired me.  I'm more than willing to pay Happ for arcade quality stuff, but in recent years I don't think you really get what you pay for.  Most of the things on the standard happ wheel are off the shelf parts, and the ones that aren't can be improvised.... no need to fabricate.  It's just a matter of getting time to collect and assemble them.

So reverse on the left eh?  Seems unnatural somehow.  Or maybe that's a European plate...  I'll look into finding one thanks. 

[SegaOutrun]

my actlabs shifter is 8 gears. i dont play any new games so i never need more than four. 5 and 6 do nothing and i use 7 for "enter" and 8 "esc". It came in handy in Outrun and when Demul popups up en error but, i have fixed demul and my new steering wheel has more buttons now so I can probably get rid 7 and 8 as well.

if you got the right tools, you can make a 6 gear shifter and a plug that covers the 5th and 6th gear when not in use. That what i want to do with my shifter to avoid miss shifts. but I havent figured out how to do it cheaply and cleanly.   

[BadMouth]

So reverse on the left eh?  Seems unnatural somehow.  Or maybe that's a European plate...  I'll look into finding one thanks.

Yeah, I thought about flipping it.
I wouldn't buy one, just copy the pattern.

Cheap shift knobs with reverse on the right are easier to find.

if you got the right tools, you can make a 6 gear shifter and a plug that covers the 5th and 6th gear when not in use. That what i want to do with my shifter to avoid miss shifts. but I havent figured out how to do it cheaply and cleanly.

The official one is reasonably priced: http://www.act-labs.com/scripts/catdetails2.asp?catcode=Racing-Shifters

I have the 4 speed and 6 speed one, but I never use the 6 speed one because I like the paddle shifters for newer games.

[Xiaou2]

 It would be easy enough to have an internal sliding plate that blocks the last two gears on the end of a 6 gear shifter ( + rev ).
A simple turn of a dial, or pull of a level..etc..  and the internal plate would slide and lock into place.

 While I have not played any 6+ gear games.. Id be bummed out if a good one came out.. and I couldn't use my custom shifter on it.

[Howard_Casto]

Well I was going to make a few restrictor plates for those purposes.  The idea would be to have all the gear positions open on the main assembly and then block them off via various restrictors as needed.  That's my sentiment exactly.... I doubt I'll be playing many 6  gear games anyway, but what if something great comes out and I can't play it. 

In terms of navigation I've been researching it a little and I think a joystick layout like this would be best:

5 1 3
6 2 4

The reason being that since the 360 controller invasion it's pretty universal that "A" button doubles as enter and "B" doubles as escape. In most games even if you remap the controls, "A" is still enter and "B" is still escape.  So with a layout like this you can shift up/down to navigate through menus just like in 2k6.  Of course the actual gear pattern can be anything... I'm just talking about the button arrangement.

[Xiaou2]

If Im not mistaken..  the Race Drivin shifter is sprung so that its always pulling to the left.  This makes it easier to keep from missing gears when downshifting.  I could be wrong... as its been a while.  Ill have to double check.   Maybe it was a different shifter that did that.   Will post back when I get home later.

[Xiaou2]

Ok, looks like I was mistaken.   There isnt a weighted position on either Race/hard drivin shifter unit.  Maybe it was a different one...

 I did notice the HD shifter top plate has a slight offset on one side, to allow the gear changes to work a bit better.

 Got no time now.. so will upload on the weekend.   The mechanism is quite genius..  and not too difficult to replicate.

[Howard_Casto]

I think a post with a bunch of arcade assemblies might actually be useful for this forum.  It might be something to sticky if we can get enough useful pics collected.

Anyway, it looks like the weather probably will prevent me from doing a whole lot on the cab this week so what I've decided to do is go ahead with the crappy flight stick plan.  My thought is doing the avr programming is going to take a while anyway, so what I'll do is use it just as a poc and then swap it out with something more substantial once I devise a better plan. 

I've got a teensy 2.0 lying around and I think that would make a good base simply because they are cheap as hell.  The code could easily be ported to a 3.0 or similar upgrade so that wouldn't be an issue either. 

I think I've got a HID ddr example lying around somewhere and it's got blinky lights and shows up as a hid joystick, so that should be a good start. 

The 2.0 has ~20 useable pins, not counting VCC and GND, so two analog pins for the shifter... 5 buttons (VR 1-4 + Start), 5 LEDS and another 8 I/0 pins to play with.   I'm thinking with that few leds I could probably get away with a simple one byte control command.  There are 9 bit masks in a byte afterall.  I dunno though, a two byte command with the pin position and value is probably easier on the end-user.  Or do people actually use those "bank" commands on the ledwiz and pacdrive?

[Generic Eric]

CAVEAT
I passed auto shop because the tests were based from the text book.  If there was a practical exam, I would have failed.  I had high scores in all the sciences.  I marginally based the ASVAB mechanics section.   But that is not important right now.


Idea:
Many, this is it right here isn't it?  5 speed with reverse. We don't have to make a long rod move a gear assembly, but if we need to replicate what is going on in the shifter section.  Looks easy.



3 self centering "sleds" on rods and bearings that are moved by a gimble.  Centered by springs or bungees.  The sled hits micro-switches instead of pushing/pulling rods.

I do understand the challenge of translating up/down shift to actual gears.  No answer there.

[Howard_Casto]

It wouldn't be particularly hard to do it that way no, but it complicates things in terms of I/O and software.  Now instead of two pots you are using three, which is sort of unnatural for a joystick.  Also for every two gears you add, you need another pot. Of course you could use switches instead but the same concept applies.  With a two pot system you can add as many gears as you want in any position you want... well within reason anyway.  The other issue might be the physical design.  If your ball joint is mounted at the base of your shifter then it doesn't have to be super sturdy.. all the forces go into the base, you simply need to keep it from sliding around.  With the ball joint suspended like that it's mount is going to have to be really sturdy and the gear box really deep to accommodate all the extra stuff in the bottom.

I'm not saying no, I'm just asking why you think it would be a better solution.  Enlighten me a little. 

It could definitely be done, I just don't know the benefit of doing it that way. 

[twistedsymphony]

an 8-way joystick with a square gate would map easily to a 6-position shifter

no direction = neutral
right+down = 1st
right+up = 2nd
down = 3rd
up = 4th
left+down = 5th
right+down = 6th

extend the shaft and feed it through a shift gate with those boom handle holders to hold it in gear

you could add a button or a collar to the stick and pushing that and shifting into 2nd for reverse or just add a reverse button like San Fran rush.



for 6-speeds there really is no standard for where reverse is placed... it's usually an extra gate all the way to the left past 1st and 2nd or all the way to the right past 5th and 6th and up OR down... cheaper cars require you pull a collar or push down on the shifter in order to put it in reverse... more expensive cars use an electronic lock out to block the gate unless you're driving under 5mph.


if you want discrete inputs for each gear you could map the joystick switches to a few AND gates and get unique outputs for each position.

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah the thing with 8 ways though is that shaft extension.  The shaft is really narrow for extending it up to a foot or more.  Like wise, that base, which needs to be suspended probably isn't so study anymore unless you build a beast of a mount for it.    Other than that there isn't a whole lot of difference mechanically, you just put a physical switch where the cardinal directions or in the case of a 8-way just use the existing switches.  But then the spring is weak as well.  It's easy enough to swap for something stiffer, but then you've put even more stress on that base so I dunno.

I'm wondering if anyone has attempted that and what the results were. 

Now if you were referring to an "arcade style" sega-ish stick where the shifter is mounted up high on the dash then yeah, and 8-way would work without much modification.  It's just my opinion, but a floor mounted shifter is more natural though.

[Howard_Casto]

Ok, so I mentioned that I was going to go ahead with the crappy joystick because it would be the same software wise and I can swap it out before I'm done. 

I'm back on my feet (for today at least) and I was re-organizing some stuff.  I ran across a big length of threaded lamp rod that ironically was bought for the same star wars yoke project.  It looked to be the right size so I popped open the joystick and sure enough it was such a tight fit that I managed to thread the plastic shaft with the rod.  It's a perfect fit.  Also the rod can thread all the way inside the ball, so my weak plastic joint suddenly becomes a much stronger metal one. 

I will have to re-enforce the base a little and maybe add some additional springs, but it's surprisingly sturdy.  Add a sleeve to sure it up even more and a knob and I think it's all set.  I like the idea of a hollow shaft because I can add a turbo/nitro button to the shifter for turbo outrun and other games.  There's even enough room to run more wires for lights and what have you. 

I took some pics but the batt is low, so they are a tad blurry. 

I'm thinking for the spring situation I can just put a fender washer on there towards the bottom and attach additional springs that way.