Tron Original Joystick - can it be made with original Pac-Man joystick?

[benarcade]

I was looking at an original Tron stick and its restrictor, and it looks EXACTLY like an original Pac-Man stick and restrictor - but just with an added trigger.

And since Pacman is a 4-way, then so is original Tron.

Top two are original Tron. Bottom is original Pacman.

[yotsuya]

I was looking at an original Tron stick and its restrictor, and it looks EXACTLY like an original Pac-Man stick and restrictor - but just with an added trigger.

And since Pacman is a 4-way, then so is original Tron.

Top two are original Tron. Bottom is original Pacman.

Tron is an 8-way.

[PL1]

Looks can be deceptive in the 4-way vs. 8-way department.

The TRON stick is an 8-way with a special restrictor (see Encryptor's B/S/T thread here) that made it hard to hit diagonals.



PDF with great pics showing the differences and summarizing a conversion from a DOT/Xenophobe to TRON stick here.


Scott

[Paul Olson]

I think there are some differences, but I am not sure. I will look tonight since I have both of them. I think the pac housing is shorter, but I need to confirm. If you don't see me post in here in about 6 hours, you may need to remind me.

[SavannahLion]

TRON's stick is more akin to Satans Hollow or Gorf as noted on the Wiki. The closest modern replacement is Happs 8-way heavy duty joystick with the third party restrictor as discussed above.  There are pseudo replacements such as the TRON Atari or Apple sticks but they're consumer, not industrial, grade. DOT has the same stick with an small bend in the shaft.

You can hack your own replacement, happens quite often.

[benarcade]

You could make a Pac-Man joystick 8-way by adjusting the leafs to contact both up-left, bottom-left, etc simultaneously, rather than independently - which is how I believe the Tron stick is set up to do. The Tron stick is essentially a Pacman with a switch wire that goes through the extra casing and exits through the grommet plate. The Pacman diamond restrictor helps keep it in 4-way mode for the most part, and with leaf adjustments, you could set an 8-way point that's not so easy to hit - same idea as the Tron restrictor.

To put it another way, I could take a Tron stick and put a Pacman ball-top in it, adjust the leafs to 4-way, and it would be a straight up 4-way pac stick.

The reason I bring it up at all is that I'm having trouble locating an 8-way, top fire, leaf joystick, and it looks like I'll need to modify some existing stick to make that happen.

[SavannahLion]

I'm not sure how well that would work but it's worth a shot. My comment was merely a statement as to what the TRON stick is most like. I'm not too inclined to futz with the Pac stick only because I possess Gorf hardware and GGG blue handles.

[tron84]

As others have pointed out, Tron is a hybrid 8/4 way. 
The Tron restrictor is gummy like & is way bigger then the diamond shape Pac Man 4way restictor, which that one is hard.

Then the inside guts are completely different for the joysticks.


Then the centering grommets Size difference is night and day. Tron left, Midway on right.

The shear force in the pound resistance between the two to get them moving is night and day also.

If I remember correctly, Tron/Gorf is a 20lb resistance grommet.  Where Pac Man was very light for very fast movement.
That would not be a good idea to even try it, imho.
It would play like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- & a good waste of a Tron stick.
 

Edit: Confirmed Tron used a 35 pound grommet.  The force in pounds required to move the joystick.
The new Happ heavy duty trigger sticks uses a 20 pound grommet.  The -20 in the description is the forced pounds. replacement grommet part below
http://na.suzohapp.com/wp/search.p?SECTION=ALL&SEARCH_TXT=96-4550-01&Search=GO
So that right there is a huge difference between the old school & the new school parts
That would feel sloppy if that was placed in a Tron stick, the new happ grommet part. A 15 pound difference.
And you would need Hulk arms to play Pac in a Tron stick. 

[SavannahLion]

Edit: Confirmed Tron used a 35 pound grommet.  The force in pounds required to move the joystick.
The new Happ heavy duty trigger sticks uses a 20 pound grommet.  The -20 in the description is the forced pounds. replacement grommet part below
http://na.suzohapp.com/wp/search.p?SECTION=ALL&SEARCH_TXT=96-4550-01&Search=GO
So that right there is a huge difference between the old school & the new school parts
That would feel sloppy if that was placed in a Tron stick, the new happ grommet part. A 15 pound difference.
And you would need Hulk arms to play Pac in a Tron stick. 

Huh... I never thought about that for my GORF sticks. I wonder if those use the 20lb or the 35lb grommet? How can you tell?

 I'll have to look again, but I believe mine are begging to be replaced. Anyone making the 35lb part?

[Xiaou2]

 Remember that certain parts are based upon many different factors.   The higher the stick height.. the more leverage.   The mass is also increased.. due to the shaft being more lengthy, and greater diameter.   As such, it amplifies your power, and so they needed to take care of that with a higher pound value grommet.

 Also note, that a thinner shaft, will probably bend with the forces you can generate with such a shaft length.  As well as will eat up the outside edges of the sticks boundary's.    Many of the larger sticks and wheel controllers use heavy duty rubber bumpers to soften the shock and reduce the potentials of the impact drastically.

[tron84]

Edit: Confirmed Tron used a 35 pound grommet.  The force in pounds required to move the joystick.
The new Happ heavy duty trigger sticks uses a 20 pound grommet.  The -20 in the description is the forced pounds. replacement grommet part below
http://na.suzohapp.com/wp/search.p?SECTION=ALL&SEARCH_TXT=96-4550-01&Search=GO
So that right there is a huge difference between the old school & the new school parts
That would feel sloppy if that was placed in a Tron stick, the new happ grommet part. A 15 pound difference.
And you would need Hulk arms to play Pac in a Tron stick. 

Huh... I never thought about that for my GORF sticks. I wonder if those use the 20lb or the 35lb grommet? How can you tell?

 I'll have to look again, but I believe mine are begging to be replaced. Anyone making the 35lb part?

I do know Gorf used the same modified grommet as Tron did.
So even thou the new Happ heavy duty trigger stick grommet will fit in there, same mounting holes. It would feel sloppy in there.
There was more technical info on the grommet than just the service manual had. As in part #13 in the service manual. (pics)
Well you will be lucky here with in the year.  G3N3R1C (KLOV) was not going to do any more reproduction runs of the grommets. I had lucked out & got some both runs he did, in my pics of post. But I spoke to him today & he will be doing another run of those grommets.
But here is what he said about the 35lb resistance,

"The 35 pound throw was not arbitrary, I had a few NOS samples tested by the manufacturer for actuation force then stumbled upon some Midway technical docs confirming what they had told me."
 So here is his site, he does a pre order & then has a few left overs.  Both go fast, so when I hear of the new run I will let you know.
http://www.gamegrommets.net/main.sc
 

[SavannahLion]

Interesting. I don't recall a parts list for the Gorf stick. Schematic and IC list, yes. Parts list, no. I will check as soon as I get back to the dev computer.

[SavannahLion]

Yep. It's right there on page 22 of the Gorf service manual. Same grommet. Same part #.

I knew the sticks were based off the same hardware, but I figured the grommet was different due to the gameplay requirements. Much like how Gorf uses a custom PCB and optical sensors instead of switches. Nice..... 

I would love to get new restrictors. It might goad me to fix the cracked PCB and maybe give it a modern upgrade.  I found soldering 0603 resistors not too difficult.

[benarcade]

Thanks for the photos tron84. That clears it up for me. I wish someone would produce a stick like that. I guess the Happ Heavy Duty is the closest it gets. I can't justify the cost though.