Check out what the Howler Controller can do!

[engg100]

Here is the Howler in action with Hyperspin and a Beta version of LEDBlinky!



Pick up your very own at http://www.wolfwaretech.com or http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/search?controller=search&orderby=position&orderway=desc&search_query=howler

[DeLuSioNal29]

Interesting...

Do you know if the Howler works with Xbox360 games on Steam natively?

DeLuSioNaL29

[SavannahLion]

The board sports an OSHW logo but there's zip about the technical details of the board. I can't see the marks on the IC's to decide what the main IC even is. There is one brief mention about writing your own drivers and the open source nature of the board under the upgradable USB blurb.

While this board may be useful to some, I take issue with the use of the OSHW logo and the apparent difficulty in obtaining anything remotely resembling a tech document (listing the number of supported LEDs is not what I'm talking about so don't go there), a BoM, schematic or a firmware framework.

If I'm wrong, show me the page with the information.

[keilmillerjr]

Interesting...

Do you know if the Howler works with Xbox360 games on Steam natively?

DeLuSioNaL29

I don't see why it wouldn't. However, I think the specific button per game lighting controls are done through led blinky and it supports mame natively.

Waiting patiently for mine to arrive in the mail.

[stan2323]

Waiting patiently for mine to arrive in the mail.

I am patiently waiting for mine as well.  Not that I will have time to do much with it.  My son is 13 months so I do not have the time I used to build things.

Stan

[stan2323]

GOT MINE TODAY.  Now to find the time to use.   

Stan

[engg100]

@savannahlion: I will be releasing the schematics and firmware source code very soon. I have just been Very busy getting all the howlers shipped out.

Also, i think it is very unfair that BYOC has removed my post about the howler clone device. I still have yet to hear a peep from its creator about it and them my post with hundreds of views and dozens of comments gets removed. I guess the truth isn't allowed on BYOC...

This post will probably be removed as well...

Josh

[AndyWarne]

@savannahlion: I will be releasing the schematics and firmware source code very soon. I have just been Very busy getting all the howlers shipped out.

Also, i think it is very unfair that BYOC has removed my post about the howler clone device. I still have yet to hear a peep from its creator about it and them my post with hundreds of views and dozens of comments gets removed. I guess the truth isn't allowed on BYOC...

This post will probably be removed as well...

Josh

I am assuming you mean our I-PAC Ultimate I/O board here.

I am happy to state my position on this.

We have been producing arcade control interfaces since 2001 and have built up a business over the years which has a good reputation for innovation, quality, timely delivery and customer service. It is my full-time occupation, not a "sideline". In fact we were the first to produce an interface geared towards MAME use.

A couple of customers asked me if I had seen your project so naturally I had a look. Laying out all of your plans as a Kickstarter has benefits in terms of finance but it means you open yourself up to competition and thats exactly what I have done. I make no apologies for producing a competing product. Thats how business works. Competition brings innovation and benefits the customer. This decision was made easier by your stated intention to release all the IP into the public domain. Any sensible person in my position with an established business would have seen a need to step up to the challenge this posed.

In fact our new board is a combination of two of our existing input and output products so the design time was minimal. I took the opportunity to produce a new interactive programming utility to replace the old VB6 one, and tidy up several other areas so that lengthened the time taken.

The fact is, this market is a low volume niche market. There was a thread recently on here asking how suppliers such as us make any money. Well the answer is we survive by concentrating on the areas we do best to maximise market share in this small market. There is not much room in this market for many more suppliers so we have no choice but to compete as strongly as possible.

I will continue to compete vigorously but on fair terms and as I said, I make no apologies for this situation which will benefit the customer in terms of choice.

[wweumina]

I don't want to a appear a yes man for Andy, but engg100 you seem to be trying to pick a fight with him.  Basically you produced a product that combined the functionality of several of his products and he replied by doing the same and throwing in a different wiring solution.  Let the market decide the rest.   

[keilmillerjr]

Business is business, but I thought being released at the same exact time seems awfully odd and not coincidental. Both can coexist, and maybe it will drive more development of both products.

I did think it was ---smurfy--- for byoac to delete the thread. Should have let it live to hash things out.

[rablack97]

@savannahlion: I will be releasing the schematics and firmware source code very soon. I have just been Very busy getting all the howlers shipped out.

Also, i think it is very unfair that BYOC has removed my post about the howler clone device. I still have yet to hear a peep from its creator about it and them my post with hundreds of views and dozens of comments gets removed. I guess the truth isn't allowed on BYOC...

This post will probably be removed as well...

Josh

Man you gotta let that go, and let your product speak for itself.  You just shipped out your product to your backers, and haven't given a soul a chance to come back with comments.  People by based on public reaction and personal loyalty, if the HOWLER kicks ass more people will buy it.  People will support you.

There have been devices developed and Andy's following have basically bashed the competitive product in the ground.  Basically Andy's followers will buy from Andy's, the followers you develop will buy from you.

In the business world, its market shares over morals and business men will do whatever it takes to keep and protect their market share.  Folks may think that Andy's release was a bit greedy to counterpunch your work, but it wasn't necessarily wrong. 

These guys laid the groundwork for innovation, i mean, had there not been an IPAC, LED-Wiz, Pac64, would you have come up with your device, can you honestly say you didn't scour those products to assist with your developmental decision making?  Everyone borrows ideas it just is what it is.

So chillout and let the market dictate which device is superior, who cares that he cloned it, you should of expected that when you put your product out there.  I would concentrate more on my marketing and my own product development.

Be proud that you raised and all that money, and people believe in your product, and you have your name all over a device that is used globally, not many people can say that.  Your device is cool, so act like it man.

You ever just sit and think, hey a very well respected vendor just cloned my device to compete, that means your device must be kickass.  Stand by your product and dont worry about the rest of the world, cause you can't fuss about things you can't control.

You will sell more Howlers

[JFlash3785]

I recently placed an order with Andy.  One piece was broken, he immediately replaced it.  Then I needed longer extension wires, he got custom wires done.  I was a pain in the ass during this process, might be because I was so ready to finish this product already and get to gaming.  Either way Andy has been nothing but professional, polite, innovative and in the end gets my recommendation to anyone who asks.


I read this thread over on hypersin forum and read all responses here and there.  Andy did nothing wrong and in the business sense you are about to be squashed like a cockroach (Mr. Wonderful reference).  Bring howler to the next level and compete back.

[pbj]

Meh, right or wrong, Andy's actions are lazy and stifle innovation.  I can remember the days of the outrageously priced J-PACs and "clearly you've wired it wrong" tech support.  I'm glad to hear he's changed on that front, though.

[armi0024]

Sorry Taptalk completely bungled this post when it listed it.  So I have edited it just to make sense, not to add anything

Lots of opinions, here are some facts.

1. With the Howler you avoid having to crimp headers for any LEDs, all you need to do is strip wires for install.(this is already done on all standard kits)
2. If you purchase off the shelf rgb joysticks, .100 headers do not need to be added for Howler installation.  This means the Howler is truly crimp and strip free for full rgb (button and joystick) installations. 
3. The basic board allows for a diversity of buttons or controls from different vendors, without having to install headers, through both RGB capabilities and the open source abilities.


Now pricing:
It is true that the Ipac I/O and Howler are the same price, but the I/O comes with a harness.  However you need a few more parts to do the RGB install so it is a better comparison to look at the boards with the hardware for install.  Please note that these kits come with all wires required for install.

Howler 4 player- 309 with free shipping in the US
IPac I/O 4 player- 120 RGB joysticks, 7.50 per led button, plus 99 dollar board, so a total of 414, plus shipping

Howler 2 player - 269 with free shipping in the US
Ipac I/O- 354 plus shipping

Both of these kits include all the wires and same controls(from different companies) required for full RGB buttons and joysticks.

I have no interest in a flame war, what is listed is very simply my understanding of what is publicly available.  If I have made a mistake, pm me and I will edit appropriately.

I did do a pricing comparison directly, because it has not been done.

I have an obvious interest in the Howler and I do understand Josh's frustration as I have dealt with similar scenarios.  However I do not have any issues with Andy and have no desire to have any issues with him.

We need to, as a community, support efforts like Josh's that essentially force the market to step forward.  But when that step is forced, its only a matter of time before the others step forward to meet it.   I am sure others will follow soon. 

So lets keep it positive, support the guys like that bring us new ideas, Aaron, Josh, Kevin, Andy, and many more, yes I will even include Randy, and remember that the guy with the next innovation may be watching (actually he's the guy writing this post ) and we don't want to create an environment that discourages people from contributing.

[yotsuya]

Thanks for being the voice of reason, Bryan.

I have a question regarding support. If I buy a Howler from you, and there is an issue, who provides support? You, or WolfWare?

[rablack97]

Well said.  Let the products talk for themselves and after Bryan's further investigation, it's kind of a no-brainer based on price point.  I had mentioned earlier the kits offered are a huge selling point, and with the prices well below the competition it's even more appealling.

People cloning your work shouldn't hinder you from innovation, sure as hell didn't stop Apple.  As you see in the prior replies the followers are gonna follow who they want and defend who they want.

I'm getting a howler, cause i'm cheap like that, and i think it's cool...

[armi0024]

Josh made an awesome board and is much more of an expert than I. However, I will be doing and install this week as I have installed everything we sell, so I can offer techinical guidance.
From the stand point of board function etc, we stand behind everything we sell.  If you have a problem, and you bought from us, we will handle it.  I may ask Josh to help or have offline conversations with him, but we will repair/replace any products purchased through Paradise where this may be needed. 

To clarify, we will accept responsibility for replacement if needed on boards ordered from us, however, as Josh has pointed out he wants to be fully involved in technical support.

[engg100]

@yotsuya: Wolfware will be providing any technical support required. I have answered many questions already and will continue to. Email me directly josh.wolf@wolfwaretech.com for any questions or concerns. There are no dumb questions and I will try to answer as fast as possible.

Josh

[yotsuya]

Thanks for the quick reply, Josh. like I stated before, I've seen the board in action and I'm pretty impressed.

[ark_ader]

@savannahlion: I will be releasing the schematics and firmware source code very soon. I have just been Very busy getting all the howlers shipped out.

Also, i think it is very unfair that BYOC has removed my post about the howler clone device. I still have yet to hear a peep from its creator about it and them my post with hundreds of views and dozens of comments gets removed. I guess the truth isn't allowed on BYOC...

This post will probably be removed as well...

Josh

I am assuming you mean our I-PAC Ultimate I/O board here.

I am happy to state my position on this.

We have been producing arcade control interfaces since 2001 and have built up a business over the years which has a good reputation for innovation, quality, timely delivery and customer service. It is my full-time occupation, not a "sideline". In fact we were the first to produce an interface geared towards MAME use.

A couple of customers asked me if I had seen your project so naturally I had a look. Laying out all of your plans as a Kickstarter has benefits in terms of finance but it means you open yourself up to competition and thats exactly what I have done. I make no apologies for producing a competing product. Thats how business works. Competition brings innovation and benefits the customer. This decision was made easier by your stated intention to release all the IP into the public domain. Any sensible person in my position with an established business would have seen a need to step up to the challenge this posed.

In fact our new board is a combination of two of our existing input and output products so the design time was minimal. I took the opportunity to produce a new interactive programming utility to replace the old VB6 one, and tidy up several other areas so that lengthened the time taken.

The fact is, this market is a low volume niche market. There was a thread recently on here asking how suppliers such as us make any money. Well the answer is we survive by concentrating on the areas we do best to maximise market share in this small market. There is not much room in this market for many more suppliers so we have no choice but to compete as strongly as possible.

I will continue to compete vigorously but on fair terms and as I said, I make no apologies for this situation which will benefit the customer in terms of choice.

Why did you really copy his work?  That doesn't sound ethical.  If you stand behind your statement regarding innovation, why would you need to?  Considering this hobby being a niche market.  Did you acknowledge his work in your clone documentation?  I am disappointed.

[yotsuya]

I'm pretty sure Andy just took his existing products and combined them on one board. It's the IDEA that is similar, not the actual schematics and hardware. 

[RandyT]

This is primarily directed at Engg100.   As I was so graciously "even included" in the list of innovators for this community, I thought I would chime in.

For a bit of historical background, GroovyGameGear was the first to bring the following innovations to this community over the last ~12 years;

4/8 way, above panel switchable mechanically restricted joysticks
LED and general output arcade controller
LED controller with gaming inputs
Gamepad-type arcade interface
RGB pushbuttons
RGB trackball
High-resolution arcade trackball encoders
High-resolution spinner in a pushbutton-footprint
High-resolution push-pull Spinner
Multi-mode, hardware digitally "restricted" joysticks
Natively multiple-switch-type compatible arcade pushbuttons, to include true leaf switches
User-Adjustable microswitches via integrated set screw
Leaf-switch based HAPP joysticks

If one looks at this list, and compares it to current offerings from other vendors, it's not difficult to see how often, and to what extent ideas are "borrowed".  While I feel your pain, and have personally experienced some of those very same feelings at times, I learned early on that it is others who set the rules of this game.   Unfortunately, you have no choice but to play along and adjust your moral compass to match that of your competitors.  But don't feel bad, because there is no business sector, nor online community, where this is any different.

This community and what it does, started out as a small group of innovators and interested individuals, helping one another realize their dreams of building a home arcade machine/panel.  As usually happens, the solutions to many of the problems faced when doing this, extended beyond the reach of average DIY home builders.  From that grew opportunity for vendors to supply solutions, which opened the hobby up to more individuals, thereby increasing the demand even outside of this community to other more specialized ones.  Once demand reached a critical mass, it caught the attention of off-shore, low-cost parts producers, who often copy and rarely innovate, starving out financial backing and incentive of the long-time innovators.  This has induced a need for those who have a real passion for supporting the needs of the community, and who aren't doing this as a sideline business, to become a bit more aggressive in order to make sure they are still going to be around to bring that next innovation to fruition. 

Crowd source funding is another new element in the equation.  If you look at the innovation in this community over the last decade and a half, you would likely realize that they were also funded by the community, but in a very different, and much riskier way.  Even now, vendors come up with a new idea they believe in strongly enough (through experience) to invest their own capital in, and if they are right in their thinking and execution, it is rewarded by the community.  If it's a "stinker", it is a personal loss, not only in investment capital, but in the time and resources which went into producing it.  No advance orders or guaranteed sales.  As crowd source funding is used more and more to provide advantage over established vendors, it will no doubt become necessary for those vendors to also explore that option to even the playing field.

I know that little of this is likely to make you feel any better about the situation.  But hopefully it will provide a bit of insight as to why things like this occur, and maybe help you to understand that without all of the similar innovations in function preceding your product, there would be no pre-established market to offer it to.  Good luck with your product and kudos to you for taking the open hardware approach.

[ark_ader]

I am not an IP lawyer but Ultimarc is based in the UK and follows the directives set by the EU.

By Andy's own admission via a previous post on this board (IMO) this could fall under EU Directive 2001/29/EC.

If I was Engg100 I would have a look at that and get some legal advice.

I studied this in University. In our ethics class, and was on one of my final exams.

[ark_ader]

This is primarily directed at Engg100.   As I was so graciously "even included" in the list of innovators for this community, I thought I would chime in.

For a bit of historical background, GroovyGameGear was the first to bring the following innovations to this community over the last ~12 years;

4/8 way, above panel switchable mechanically restricted joysticks
LED and general output arcade controller
LED controller with gaming inputs
Gamepad-type arcade interface
RGB pushbuttons
RGB trackball
High-resolution arcade trackball encoders
High-resolution spinner in a pushbutton-footprint
High-resolution push-pull Spinner
Multi-mode, hardware digitally "restricted" joysticks
Natively multiple-switch-type compatible arcade pushbuttons, to include true leaf switches
User-Adjustable microswitches via integrated set screw
Leaf-switch based HAPP joysticks

If one looks at this list, and compares it to current offerings from other vendors, it's not difficult to see how often, and to what extent ideas are "borrowed".  While I feel your pain, and have personally experienced some of those very same feelings at times, I learned early on that it is others who set the rules of this game.   Unfortunately, you have no choice but to play along and adjust your moral compass to match that of your competitors.  But don't feel bad, because there is no business sector, nor online community, where this is any different.

This community and what it does, started out as a small group of innovators and interested individuals, helping one another realize their dreams of building a home arcade machine/panel.  As usually happens, the solutions to many of the problems faced when doing this, extended beyond the reach of average DIY home builders.  From that grew opportunity for vendors to supply solutions, which opened the hobby up to more individuals, thereby increasing the demand even outside of this community to other more specialized ones.  Once demand reached a critical mass, it caught the attention of off-shore, low-cost parts producers, who often copy and rarely innovate, starving out financial backing and incentive of the long-time innovators.  This has induced a need for those who have a real passion for supporting the needs of the community, and who aren't doing this as a sideline business, to become a bit more aggressive in order to make sure they are still going to be around to bring that next innovation to fruition. 

Crowd source funding is another new element in the equation.  If you look at the innovation in this community over the last decade and a half, you would likely realize that they were also funded by the community, but in a very different, and much riskier way.  Even now, vendors come up with a new idea they believe in strongly enough (through experience) to invest their own capital in, and if they are right in their thinking and execution, it is rewarded by the community.  If it's a "stinker", it is a personal loss, not only in investment capital, but in the time and resources which went into producing it.  No advance orders or guaranteed sales.  As crowd source funding is used more and more to provide advantage over established vendors, it will no doubt become necessary for those vendors to also explore that option to even the playing field.

I know that little of this is likely to make you feel any better about the situation.  But hopefully it will provide a bit of insight as to why things like this occur, and maybe help you to understand that without all of the similar innovations in function preceding your product, there would be no pre-established market to offer it to.  Good luck with your product and kudos to you for taking the open hardware approach.

Well said Randy.  I have just one small question for you.  I tried looking on you website, but for the life of me, I cannot find your J-PAC clone or Aim-Trac clone.  Can you point me to it?   

[yotsuya]

I am not an IP lawyer

But you like to play one on the Internet, right?

If the open source plans were out there, and Andy directly copied those to make his device, I could see that being an issue. But Ultimarc has been selling these items for a long time, and combining the two doesn't seem like such a stretch.

Stop trying to stir up stuff. Both Randy and Bryan pointed out that ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- happens, and you just move on. Did these guys throw a fit when the KADE guys made their device? If they decided to make a KADE LED controller, should they ask Randy, Andy, and Josh if it's ok? Hell no.

[sharpfork]

If they decided to make a KADE LED controller, should they ask Randy, Andy, and Josh if it's ok? Hell no.

Actually, we had an open source contribution that can make the existing miniArcade run as an LED blinky compatible controller with some very slight tweaks but we decided not to push that as a feature since it didn't enhance the existing hardware landscape for the hobby.  I appreciate Andy and Randy's honesty because the rules the full time vendors play by are now very clear.

[yotsuya]

If they decided to make a KADE LED controller, should they ask Randy, Andy, and Josh if it's ok? Hell no.

Actually, we had an open source contribution that can make the existing miniArcade run as an LED blinky compatible controller with some very slight tweaks but we decided not to push that as a feature since it didn't enhance the existing hardware landscape for the hobby.  I appreciate Andy and Randy's honesty because the rules the full time vendors play by are now very clear.

And, see, that's the point. If I could buy a KADE and have it work as a keyboard controller for 3 buttons, and a LED controller for those same three buttons for the same price because that's all I need, that's a great innovation, and I wouldn't have to hack a keyboard.  And I wouldn't expect that at any time, if you did decide to push through, that you would have asked the guys who sell LED boards if it's "OK".

[sharpfork]

And I wouldn't expect that at any time, if you did decide to push through, that you would have asked the guys who sell LED boards if it's "OK".

If Randy had come out with the LED blinky just a few weeks ago and I was going to basically clone it, I'd at least give him a heads up.  I contacted Josh to ask his thoughts about the new iPac and he was blindsided.  I get that business is business and having a little shop for the love of the hobby and solving technical design problems for it is different than trying to feed your family off it.  I still think this whole thing sucks.

[ark_ader]

I am not an IP lawyer

But you like to play one on the Internet, right?

If the open source plans were out there, and Andy directly copied those to make his device, I could see that being an issue. But Ultimarc has been selling these items for a long time, and combining the two doesn't seem like such a stretch.

Stop trying to stir up stuff. Both Randy and Bryan pointed out that ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- happens, and you just move on. Did these guys throw a fit when the KADE guys made their device? If they decided to make a KADE LED controller, should they ask Randy, Andy, and Josh if it's ok? Hell no.

I'm sorry I forgot you bring electronic products to the market.  You had to have come up with a design, through various R&D methods, which incur monies from shareholders, perform testing trials, change management, iterative design modifications while listening to your customers and shareholder requests.  Devote all your time and energy to market electronic products.  I can go on.  I bet you are a wizard at manufacturing.

But you don't, and that is why you are not qualified to advise engg100 to just grin and bare it.  Andy has his own products to sell, unless business is so bad.....

[yotsuya]

But you don't, and that is why you are not qualified to advise engg100 to just grin and bare it.  Andy has his own products to sell, unless business is so bad.....

And you are because you took an ethics class at the university? 

I'm not telling engg100 to grin and bear it. I've publicly posted as well as privately PMed him that his energies are better spend promoting his product than posting inflammatory threads on Pinside (which was deleted), Hyperspin's board (which was locked after a mod stated "Closing this thread now as it's not helpful to any of the vendors that support our hobby") and KLOV, where the reaction has been overwhelmingly negative (with comments like "If you can't compete and have to resort to bitching because you have a competitor, I don't want your product. ").  None of that does ANY good to him or others who might be invested in distributing his product. I completely understand why he might have felt "blindsided", but he also said he expected it to happen. Ok, so it's happened. Get over it and get on with it. Tell me the merits of your product. Don't worry about what the other guy is doing.

I have seen the Howler. I've stated many times that it's a good product. Like others have said in this thread, let the product speak for itself. I respect anyone who can do what he has done. That's why I hate to see the negative effects those threads have caused. Honestly, if you're buying Andy's product, you're probably already buying the buttons and other pieces that go with it. If you're a DIYer/tinkerer, the Howler is probably what you want. It's pretty clear to see. Each one caters to a specific market/buyer.

[ark_ader]

But you don't, and that is why you are not qualified to advise engg100 to just grin and bare it.  Andy has his own products to sell, unless business is so bad.....

And you are because you took an ethics class at the university? 

I'm not telling engg100 to grin and bear it. I've publicly posted as well as privately PMed him that his energies are better spend promoting his product than posting inflammatory threads on Pinside (which was deleted), Hyperspin's board (which was locked after a mod stated "Closing this thread now as it's not helpful to any of the vendors that support our hobby") and KLOV, where the reaction has been overwhelmingly negative (with comments like "If you can't compete and have to resort to bitching because you have a competitor, I don't want your product. ").  None of that does ANY good to him or others who might be invested in distributing his product. I completely understand why he might have felt "blindsided", but he also said he expected it to happen. Ok, so it's happened. Get over it and get on with it. Tell me the merits of your product. Don't worry about what the other guy is doing.

I have seen the Howler. I've stated many times that it's a good product. Like others have said in this thread, let the product speak for itself. I respect anyone who can do what he has done. That's why I hate to see the negative effects those threads have caused. Honestly, if you're buying Andy's product, you're probably already buying the buttons and other pieces that go with it. If you're a DIYer/tinkerer, the Howler is probably what you want. It's pretty clear to see. Each one caters to a specific market/buyer.

Lets hypothetically say you are Happ during the 1980s and you are bringing a new arcade controller board to a tradeshow.  I managed to sneak into your booth and make a few notes, call my development team and bring a similar product to market, exactly at the same time as Happ brings its board with exactly the same features.  I go on Coinslot magazine and tell everyone how I got the idea.  Business is business, right?  Somehow I do not think I would get away with it.  Probably against an outfit called David, but not a outfit called Goliath.


Your deliberations please.

[AndyWarne]

Just a couple of points:

Firstly, I am hesitant to post further on this thread which was essentially a "new product announcement" thread but the OP did imply earlier that he had "not heard anything" so this seems to be an exception to the accepted rule that other suppliers should not post on this type of thread.
 
The Howler does not contain any functionality which has not been provided by our products for 5 years or more. Look at it this way: We have been producing boards which use LEDBlinky and have input capability for keyboard, game controller etc, then someone comes along with another board which uses the SAME software and has the SAME input capabilities. Who is copying who here? I was first made aware of the Howler by someone who emailed me and basically said "Look at this, someone is copying your boards".

Just to point out an issue raised above, our board and accessories are designed such that nobody has to crimp 0.1in pins. Our LEDs come with plug-in wiring attached and we supply packs of pre-crimped wires and header housings they plug into, for people who wish to use alternative LEDs. There is a product differentiator here, rather than go down the "manually wired" route I decided to focus on a modular plug-in approach. Again, nothing new for us, all of the wiring harnesses we have had in stock long-term as they are the same as on our existing products.

In fact I will state here and now that I dont have any intention of producing a board which has screw terminals for LED connections as I believe the number of connections required is too great to use this method. So the Howler will always have the market for people who prefer a screw-connection LED board.

[RandyT]

Actually, we had an open source contribution that can make the existing miniArcade run as an LED blinky compatible controller with some very slight tweaks but we decided not to push that as a feature since it didn't enhance the existing hardware landscape for the hobby.  I appreciate Andy and Randy's honesty because the rules the full time vendors play by are now very clear.

I'm not sure you understand my position.  From my perspective, where one can move something forward in a meaningful way, or offer an option which might fill an otherwise unfilled void, then it's good to have those options.  Ark asked above where my clones were of a couple of existing products, and my answer would be along the same line of reasoning as yours.  Simply splitting an already very small market share, without offering anything more in the way of value or capability, leaves less capital for other innovators to continue to do what they do, and usually not much in the way of reward for the effort involved in doing so.  It's also not much fun.  I always try to push forward, or at least diagonally, instead of directly to the side.

I have no horse in this particular race, nor am I likely to.  No interest, and the reasons are not relevant.  Just attempting to bring light to some things which aren't considered (or really cared about) by most, even though some of them can affect their options.  I agree that it sucks for Josh, and as I stated earlier, I know first hand what he's going through.  I also know first hand that, if his overall implementation is better, or in any way more capable, word will get out to that effect and he won't have any concerns.  The rub is that it can take some time for that to happen, if this ends up being the case.

Lets hypothetically say you are Happ during the 1980s and you are bringing a new arcade controller board to a tradeshow.  I managed to sneak into your booth and make a few notes, call my development team and bring a similar product to market, exactly at the same time as Happ brings its board with exactly the same features.  I go on Coinslot magazine and tell everyone how I got the idea.  Business is business, right?  Somehow I do not think I would get away with it.  Probably against an outfit called David, but not a outfit called Goliath.


Your deliberations please.

Ethically, it would be off the charts smarmy, but it's not really an apt comparison.  It would be more like HAPP taking out a full page ad in a trade mag, describing the details of a joystick they want to have produced and looking for pre-orders, having not procured any sort of IP protection (assuming it was even eligible for any) prior to doing so.  IANAL, but I seem to recall "publishing" a design being an act of placing into the public domain.  Copyrights are different beasts, and probably not applicable to a joystick design.  This is why these funding sites are extraordinarily bad, without IP protection (again, if eligible) in place beforehand.   They pretty much provide would-be competitors enough information to duplicate, or even render obsolete, a potential product before the first one is ever shipped.   You can bet that a lot of companies monitor those sites for pending IP violations, as well as a means to get a "heads-up" for anything which might cut into their market share.  It probably plays a role in the Chinese R&D world as well.  Unfortunately, it's a rough world (and getting rougher.)

[SavannahLion]

http://www.oshwa.org/definition/

The whole discussion about IP from Josh's position is a bit of a wash here. 

[ark_ader]

Just a couple of points:

Firstly, I am hesitant to post further on this thread which was essentially a "new product announcement" thread but the OP did imply earlier that he had "not heard anything" so this seems to be an exception to the accepted rule that other suppliers should not post on this type of thread.
 
The Howler does not contain any functionality which has not been provided by our products for 5 years or more. Look at it this way: We have been producing boards which use LEDBlinky and have input capability for keyboard, game controller etc, then someone comes along with another board which uses the SAME software and has the SAME input capabilities. Who is copying who here? I was first made aware of the Howler by someone who emailed me and basically said "Look at this, someone is copying your boards".

Bryan, our board and accessories are designed such that nobody has to crimp 0.1in pins. Our LEDs come with plug-in wiring attached and we supply packs of pre-crimped wires and header housings they plug into, for people who wish to use alternative LEDs. There is a product differentiator here, rather than go down the "manually wired" route I decided to focus on a modular plug-in approach. Again, nothing new for us, all of the wiring harnesses we have had in stock long-term as they are the same as on our existing products.

In fact I will state here and now that I dont have any intention of producing a board which has screw terminals for LED connections as I believe the number of connections required is too great to use this method. So the Howler will always have the market for people who prefer a screw-connection LED board.

I don't blame you for being hesitant.

Laying out all of your plans as a Kickstarter has benefits in terms of finance but it means you open yourself up to competition and thats exactly what I have done. I make no apologies for producing a competing product. Thats how business works. Competition brings innovation and benefits the customer. This decision was made easier by your stated intention to release all the IP into the public domain. 

That's a doosy.  Question I have is:  Is the IP for the Howler design, currently in the public domain?

Your product is not a new product.  It is Josh's product, which you are bring out to market.  You are describing it  like a modern day story of a guy walking with a chocolate bar towards a guy with an open jar of peanut butter and they collide.  Presto a new product!

The problem Andy is I champion your products to my friends and clients.  Excellent customer service and innovated products.  Hearing all of this is very disappointing and rather sad. I hope you pull your product from the market and let the Howler get some business.  Do you honestly really need this product so badly?

Unfortunately, it's a rough world (and getting rougher.)

Agreed Randy, but that is why EU Directive 2001/29/EC is in place, to protect companies that are based in the EU, and its trading partners, large and small.

[ark_ader]

http://www.oshwa.org/definition/

The whole discussion about IP from Josh's position is a bit of a wash here. 

Yes just like how Linux is protected. You can use whatever you want, but you have to show where the original work came from, in the documentation.  You can sell products too, but you have to show where the work or idea came from.  Its like me copying and compiling Linux and calling it my own software, and company called Bluehat. I have to show tracibility.

I'm sure there are contingencies in this OSHWA definition for such issues, as there has been with open source in the past.

[AndyWarne]

The problem Andy is I champion your products to my friends and clients.  Excellent customer service and innovated products.  Hearing all of this is very disappointing and rather sad.

Thanks for the compliment but I really dont understand why this is "disappointing". As I have said, I see someone bringing out a product which replicates the functions and uses the same software (LEDBlinky) as our long-established products. I have not gone onto a forum and banged-on about this, I have reacted in a business-like way.

[AndyWarne]

I can remember the days of the outrageously priced J-PACs and "clearly you've wired it wrong" tech support.  I'm glad to hear he's changed on that front, though.

I was going to let this go but its praying on my mind. The price of J-PACs has never changed since we launched it.

I wonder if you could PM me your email address so I can check what I actually said as I would never intend to reply to a support question in such a way.

[DarakuTenshi]

I can remember the days of the outrageously priced J-PACs and "clearly you've wired it wrong" tech support.  I'm glad to hear he's changed on that front, though.

I was going to let this go but its praying on my mind. The price of J-PACs has never changed since we launched it.

I wonder if you could PM me your email address so I can check what I actually said as I would never intend to reply to a support question in such a way.

My experience with Andy has been nothing but excellence! I've been dealing with him now for over a decade and the customer support he has provided has been the best I've ever seen. Honestly, I don't know how he does it... he has got to have a lot on his plate than to deal with the business end of everything while he also takes care of the customer service.

[sharpfork]

Thanks for the compliment but I really dont understand why this is "disappointing"...  I have reacted in a business-like way.

I feel the same way, have been a big supporter of Andy's and am disappointed.  My dissapointment is based in the culture and definition of OSHW: http://freedomdefined.org/OSHW#Open_Source_Hardware_.28OSHW.29_Statement_of_Principles_1.0 
Josh released his product under this definition and the ultimarc product is clearly

4. Derived Works
The license shall allow modifications and derived works, and shall allow them to be distributed under the same terms as the license of the original work. The license shall allow for the manufacture, sale, distribution, and use of products created from the design files, the design files themselves, and derivatives thereof.

but is lacking

6. Attribution
The license may require derived documents, and copyright notices associated with devices, to provide attribution to the licensors when distributing design files, manufactured products, and/or derivatives thereof. The license may require that this information be accessible to the end-user using the device normally, but shall not specify a specific format of display...

Josh has no requirements for attribution in combining the functionality of commercial products that are closed source into what was a unique form factor with enhancements.  According to the principles of OSHW, Andy does have a requirement to provide Attribution.  This is true even if the OSHW specs were derived from the kickstarter pages instead of formal OSHW design files.

It can be argued that Andy made design improvements that warrant the release of a  derivative.  If the market gets exposure to the Howler compared to the ubiquitous I-Pac brand, the market will decide.

I again want to thank all involved for the frank discussion and to the mods for letting this tread play out (and not deleting this thread like happened previously).

[ChanceKJ]

Can't help but feel that this has some relevance...



Especially parts 3 and 4. (Start around 00:14:20 if you want to skip the movie/music bit, but that's worth a watch too)


As a consumer, I welcome choice.

As an educated consumer (and you pretty much have to be in this hobby) I will chose what product works best for my application. Do I chose a board from an overseas vendor that I've dealt with in the past? Do I chose one that was designed pretty much 15 minuets away from my front door?  None of that really matters to me in my case, I'm the consumer and I will buy what's best (based on features) for my project. Case in point: I had planned on an ipac for my first build, but switched to a Lono2 at the zero hour because I felt that it was better for my application. Did that stop me from still buying my trackball, LED boards, and four joysticks from Ultimarc, nope. The diversification of product offerings kept my money flowing to PA, GGG, and Ultimarc. Partly because I have choice.

Do these products both encourage people to join the hobby? Yes, to some degree they do. That's good for us all.

[yotsuya]

I again want to thank all involved for the frank discussion and to the mods for letting this tread play out (and not deleting this thread like happened previously).

Agreed. The difference between this thread and that one was that this one has stayed civil and on topic. 

[spoot]

Claiming combining two already existing boards that were on the market for years is ripping sumone off is silly IMHO.  It's like saying Samsung owed Apple $1billion for "rounded corners".

[pbj]

I can remember the days of the outrageously priced J-PACs and "clearly you've wired it wrong" tech support.  I'm glad to hear he's changed on that front, though.

I was going to let this go but its praying on my mind. The price of J-PACs has never changed since we launched it.

I wonder if you could PM me your email address so I can check what I actually said as I would never intend to reply to a support question in such a way.

Well, I distinctly remembering those things dropping in price ~$20 right after Groovy Game Gear started selling the EcoWhiz, but perhaps you were simply getting them into American distributor hands and it was just the "cost to get it to pbj" dropped.  Or maybe I was delighted there was finally some competition.   

[Generic Eric]

Claiming combining two already existing boards that were on the market for years is ripping sumone off is silly IMHO.  It's like saying Samsung owed Apple $1billion for "rounded corners".

eleventy!1!!

The hardware side of this hobby is totally about miniaturizing and stuffing things in small holes and minimizing overheating whilst illuminating buttons. 

Frankly it is a wonder it took so long for someone to bring this to market.  Watching from the sidelines I would have bet that the vendors have had this in the waiting. Furthermore, I don't see this any different than the console manufacturers waiting to see whom among them is releasing the next gen first.

Did you not already know I wanted the smallest, cheapest pcb that could give me all the inputs? 

I also want a board, that I can load mame on whenever it is updated along with all of the aforementioned  inputs and a built in craftymech slg.  Preferably one that can output for arcade monitor, rca, svideo, rgb, vga, dvi, hdmi.

[SavannahLion]

Thanks for the compliment but I really dont understand why this is "disappointing"...  I have reacted in a business-like way.

I feel the same way, have been a big supporter of Andy's and am disappointed.  My dissapointment is based in the culture and definition of OSHW: http://freedomdefined.org/OSHW#Open_Source_Hardware_.28OSHW.29_Statement_of_Principles_1.0 
Josh released his product under this definition and the ultimarc product is clearly

4. Derived Works
The license shall allow modifications and derived works, and shall allow them to be distributed under the same terms as the license of the original work. The license shall allow for the manufacture, sale, distribution, and use of products created from the design files, the design files themselves, and derivatives thereof.

but is lacking

6. Attribution
The license may require derived documents, and copyright notices associated with devices, to provide attribution to the licensors when distributing design files, manufactured products, and/or derivatives thereof. The license may require that this information be accessible to the end-user using the device normally, but shall not specify a specific format of display...

Josh has no requirements for attribution in combining the functionality of commercial products that are closed source into what was a unique form factor with enhancements.  According to the principles of OSHW, Andy does have a requirement to provide Attribution.  This is true even if the OSHW specs were derived from the kickstarter pages instead of formal OSHW design files.

It can be argued that Andy made design improvements that warrant the release of a  derivative.  If the market gets exposure to the Howler compared to the ubiquitous I-Pac brand, the market will decide.

I again want to thank all involved for the frank discussion and to the mods for letting this tread play out (and not deleting this thread like happened previously).

This is directed to you and Ark. As of my last two postings, Josh has NOT complied with OSHW, specifically #1 which is to have all of that documentation easily available. You can't reasonably hit on Andy for points 4 and 6 from OSHW when Josh hasn't even released the source as I had asked in my very first post and as required for OSHW.

#4 can't apply because there are no design files.

In addition, in #6 the keyword is may not shall. Josh never specified or complied with OSHW so it would be unreasonable to assume that attribution is a requirement when it is clearly optional by the designer. If the designer never specifies what is expected but makes it clear he is using OSHW, what is expected?

[AndyWarne]

http://freedomdefined.org/OSHW#Open_Source_Hardware_.28OSHW.29_Statement_of_Principles_1.0 
Josh released his product under this definition and the ultimarc product is clearly

4. Derived Works
The license shall allow modifications and derived works, and shall allow them to be distributed under the same terms as the license of the original work. The license shall allow for the manufacture, sale, distribution, and use of products created from the design files, the design files themselves, and derivatives thereof.

Whoa hold on.

You seem to be suggesting I have used design IP from the Howler.

I think it should be pretty clear I didnt. I used no IP from it at all. In fact it appears that no IP has ever been released.

Did I look at the Howler specs? Yes

Did he look at the specs of our boards? Yes. We know this as he stated on his website that he looked at what was available on the market. He stated there was no board available which handles control input and LED output (not strictly true as our U-HID has always done that). He then assumed that just because there was no such board available at the time, that there would never be another such board available. That was many months ago. Things move on...

Just one last point for the record. On the (closed) Hyperspin thread, it was stated that I:

"bashed my product on their site. It also really bothers me that they deleted my post on their forum"

I did nothing of the kind. I dont have any admin rights over this forum and I have not mentioned the Howler once on our website.

[engg100]

I will be releasing the firmware and hardware source in the next week or so. I honestly have been SUPER busy programming, testing and shipping out all of the Howler boards (and dealing with a monster of a toddler and a full time job). I also want to clean up the code a bit so I am not flamed out by the programmers...

Also to clarify, Andy DO NOT use any IP from the Howler at all. Since the IP has yet to be released and he obviously has the skills to do all of this himself.

Enough with the flame war already, I was only upset because this device came out at the exact same time as the Howler with nearly the exact same specs without my knowledge but as Andy said, "Business is Business" and having multiple offerings out there is good for the community. Also, removing my original post from Andy's thread was what started it all but lets just let it go and continue on with the hobby.

If I wanted to make money from this I would not have made it open source (I actually had to take out a significant loan in order to build up an inventory of boards), I did it because whenever I show my friends my system they are in awe and we sit there for hours and play all the classic games from when we were kids and forget about all the bills we have to pay, kids we have to take care of, and wives we have to please...

Thanks,

Josh

[yotsuya]

I will be releasing the firmware and hardware source in the next week or so. I honestly have been SUPER busy programming, testing and shipping out all of the Howler boards (and dealing with a monster of a toddler and a full time job). I also want to clean up the code a bit so I am not flamed out by the programmers...

Also to clarify, Andy DO NOT use any IP from the Howler at all. Since the IP has yet to be released and he obviously has the skills to do all of this himself.

Enough with the flame war already, I was only upset because this device came out at the exact same time as the Howler with nearly the exact same specs without my knowledge but as Andy said, "Business is Business" and having multiple offerings out there is good for the community. Also, removing my original post from Andy's thread was what started it all but lets just let it go and continue on with the hobby.

If I wanted to make money from this I would not have made it open source (I actually had to take out a significant loan in order to build up an inventory of boards), I did it because whenever I show my friends my system they are in awe and we sit there for hours and play all the classic games from when we were kids and forget about all the bills we have to pay, kids we have to take care of, and wives we have to please...

Thanks,

Josh

Well said, Josh! Good luck with the product. 

[yotsuya]

Oh, and to get this thread back on topic, I'm curious about the accelerometer functionality. Do you need to wire something in for that?

[engg100]

@yotsuya: No wiring at all, the accelerometer is on the howler board. By default it is mapped to the X, Y, Z rotation for Joystick 1 but it can be changed using the Howler Config program to trigger a joystick button press or keyboard button when any of the accelerometer axes go within a programmable range. If you watch my youtube video I show how it works by mapping the X axis to keyboard button "Z" and am able to add nudge capabilities to Epic Pinball using Dosbox!!!

[Vigo]

I did like the accelerometer, although I would think that there would be more advantage to allowing the accelerometer to be detached from the board, so you could integrate it into special made controls. Besides nudge, do you have some other ideas of uses?

[zanna5910]

Oh, and to get this thread back on topic, I'm curious about the accelerometer functionality. Do you need to wire something in for that?

yotsuyas gonna yotsuya

[rablack97]

I will be releasing the firmware and hardware source in the next week or so. I honestly have been SUPER busy programming, testing and shipping out all of the Howler boards (and dealing with a monster of a toddler and a full time job). I also want to clean up the code a bit so I am not flamed out by the programmers...

Also to clarify, Andy DO NOT use any IP from the Howler at all. Since the IP has yet to be released and he obviously has the skills to do all of this himself.

Enough with the flame war already, I was only upset because this device came out at the exact same time as the Howler with nearly the exact same specs without my knowledge but as Andy said, "Business is Business" and having multiple offerings out there is good for the community. Also, removing my original post from Andy's thread was what started it all but lets just let it go and continue on with the hobby.

If I wanted to make money from this I would not have made it open source (I actually had to take out a significant loan in order to build up an inventory of boards), I did it because whenever I show my friends my system they are in awe and we sit there for hours and play all the classic games from when we were kids and forget about all the bills we have to pay, kids we have to take care of, and wives we have to please...

Thanks,

Josh

 

See that's the attitude that will bring you more buyers.....take one on the jaw and fight through it, it's only round 1 man, give your prod a change to mature and grow in the market.

Got a big project coming up, soon as funding hits, i'm down for a 2 plyr setup 

[yotsuya]

Oh, and to get this thread back on topic, I'm curious about the accelerometer functionality. Do you need to wire something in for that?


yotsuyas gonna yotsuya

Uh, sure thing, bro. 

I'm curious along the same lines as Vigo. Do you see any other potential uses?

[SavannahLion]

Oh, and to get this thread back on topic, I'm curious about the accelerometer functionality. Do you need to wire something in for that?


yotsuyas gonna yotsuya

Uh, sure thing, bro. 

I'm curious along the same lines as Vigo. Do you see any other potential uses?

Of course, not knowing the granularity of the accelerometer,  it's hard to say. But...
Anything Wii related...
A substitute for sitdown controls eg Hang-On. Might allow for a much smaller and more flexible setup in that regards?
Replace the reloader mechanism in some shooters. I can't recall which one but there is one where reloading involves "snapping" the gun instead of shooting offscreen. That always struck me as lame especially if the contacts inside are worn.

[ark_ader]

The problem Andy is I champion your products to my friends and clients.  Excellent customer service and innovated products.  Hearing all of this is very disappointing and rather sad.

Thanks for the compliment but I really dont understand why this is "disappointing". As I have said, I see someone bringing out a product which replicates the functions and uses the same software (LEDBlinky) as our long-established products. I have not gone onto a forum and banged-on about this, I have reacted in a business-like way.

I am not going to beat a dead horse here and this will be my final comment on this subject.

Andy, you knew that this open sourced project was in the works.  You admitted looking at the available documents and brought a very similar product to market. That alone is unethical and quite naughty.  Yes you have both existing controllers, as well as several innovative products that this community embraces with gratitude.  I would also go so far to say (especially being on a BYOAC board of all places which promotes your products) that this community is not only a testbed for ideas, but a contributor to your company's success.  Innovation is the sticking point.  IDEAS make this hobby become reality.

You could of easily have waited a month before bringing your competing product to market.  That is being greedy.  That is why I am disappointed, and that is why I will not be buying your products or referring others from now on.  Randy will get my business.  It is down to ethics and good business methods, regardless what the other supposedly "manufacturers" say on the topic.  I am sure that I am not alone in this thinking.

Kudos to engg100 for his comments, even after the fact.

[keilmillerjr]

^^^^ that was my only complaint as well. Releasing a similar product at the same exact time seemed like it was a dig towards the howler, who has been posting it's information and timeline publicly.

[AndyWarne]

^^^^ that was my only complaint as well. Releasing a similar product at the same exact time seemed like it was a dig towards the howler, who has been posting it's information and timeline publicly.

The Howler timeline said it was being released in March. I always planned end April for my board. I had fully expected the Howler to be released at least a month before this.

[wirenut]

I for one do not think Andy should have to explain himself at all for his business practices.  The Howler is being sold by one of his main competitors (Paradise).  Allowing them to have an extra month to build market share is unacceptable in a business perspective.  Remember that whomever goes to Paradise to buy the Howler will most likely pick up buttons, sticks, ect... 

However, I do selfishly wonder if this kind of competition will discourage "backyard" innovation.  Andy always had the ability to combine the boards, but it took the Howler to get him to do it.

I just want to say that I have bought from both Paradise and Ultimarc and they are both really great.

[pbj]

^^^^ that was my only complaint as well. Releasing a similar product at the same exact time seemed like it was a dig towards the howler, who has been posting it's information and timeline publicly.

The Howler timeline said it was being released in March. I always planned end April for my board. I had fully expected the Howler to be released at least a month before this.

At 1am your time, you are still crapping on a thread about a competing product and still attempting to defend your actions.

When you find yourself in a hole - quit digging.

 

[ChanceKJ]

  Well if this thread is going off the rails again i might as well actively chime in...

...That alone is unethical and quite naughty....  ...You could of easily have waited a month before bringing your competing product to market.  That is being greedy....

I completely disagree. I'm truly sorry, but those are some of the dumbest comments i've seen all day month.  This is business.  Your mentality on this is weak.

When you commit to developing a product that you intend to not only sell, but potentially to make open source (especially with crowd funding) then you commit to a couple other things: 

1. That someone is going to copy your product.
2. They may crush you in sales/design/features/etc,etc,

If you can't commit to those facts, you don't go into business. That is a loss.

Unethical? No.  If Andy came here to Calgary, broke into Josh's place, smashed/destroyed all his Howler research and prototypes, then released his own board, that is "unethical". Urinating on the chard remains would be "naughty". If you have the means to come to market with a competitive product and take a solid chunk of said market you do it because thats just how it's done.  Waiting to release a product so potential sales can go to the other guys? Pffft no. This is business, not a preschool class trip to a petting zoo. And "Greedy" is for Wall Street cheats or CEO's that show up to a government bailout hearing in a private jet.

I have nothing against Josh. He knows the risks involved in releasing a product. He's wrist deep in it. If he can make his money back from any loan or out of pocket expenses, and at least break even then he's survived. If he takes it further and sees other products that need to exist, (be they similar or unique) then make money off them he's doing good.   

I've been a business owner that was open mouth curb stomped by a larger competitor.  I've had products of mine literally ripped from me in the middle of the design phase by a client, only for them to take it to a competitor that had no qualms trying to complete my work. I learned from that and it made me stronger in business.  This situation is not that. 

Like I said. This is business. None of it is personal.

Disagree with me all you want, thats your opinion. I encourage it.


/EndRant

[pbj]

Unethical? No.  If Andy came here to Calgary, broke into Josh's place, smashed/destroyed all his Howler research and prototypes, then released his own board, that is "unethical."

No, that's "illegal."  Is English your second language?

[ChanceKJ]

 

Only to "Bad English". 

[Dawgz Rule]

Unethical?  Naughty?  That is absurd.

I worked in publishing for a number of years and when we were aware that our competition was releasing a product, we would release a competitive product.  It was typical to match specs such that if the competitor was releasing a four color, hard cover text, we would do the same.  If possible, we would also try to release it prior to them.  Yes, we would research as much as we could (legally) to get the product to market.  That is not unethical or naughty.  If we copied the content of the book it would be an entirely different story.  An idea is not IP nor is making a competitive product, theft, copying, or a derivative product. 

It is the free market system.   The same goes on in Pharma where I currently work and I think you would be hard pressed to find any industry that doesn't do the same.  Cars???  Yes.  Console games???  Yes.

We would never think of calling the competitor and saying, "Hey, we were thinking about releasing a competitive product....Are you OK with that?"  That simply isn't how the free market works.

To suggest that Andy did anything that was even remotely wrong or unethical is about as stupid as it gets.   By all means, if you are "disappointed", you have the right to choose to discontinue doing business with Andy.  Again, that is how the free market works.  On the other hand, I will continue to do business with Andy based on my positive experiences.  He is a stand up guy and I am amazed at how much he is willing to do for his customers and the community as a whole.

[chopperthedog]

The richhead users always come out in force.


good day.

[rablack97]

Way i see it.

If your contributing to the community out of the love of the hobby.  Money nor morals matter as you wouldn't care who cloned copied anything.  In fact you embrace alternate attempts to duplicate your work to see it grow and appreciate the interest in your innocation.

If this wasn't about the love for the hobby and about competition and money.  Howler should of never been put on kickstarter.  You get private funding, you patent it, and you release it.  It's been said a few times here, kickstarter is the impatient way to get funding, and it exposes your innovations to the public.  You let microsoft kickstart a new console, do you think sony or apple won't counter it with a competing product?

If the the innovation is non-threatening to established businesses, some just write it off, as Randy stated, he has no interest in pursuing a competitive board due to the small market niche for such a product.  His bread and butter products will sustain his market share.

The idea to combine LED and Encoder functionality is sorta unique, but not a ground breaking idea, its not like Andy stole Colonel Sanders KFC recipe.  To Andy's point Josh had to of scoured his products for specs as well.

I know this is the bid dogs should of let the smaller dog have his moment, but when you come out advertising like josh did and raise close to 40,000 cash, build a website, t-shirts, and start a small company name.  Do you guys think this would raise a brow to the competition.

Had he started small, sold to the locals and kept it low key, then maybe this would of turned out different, I mean he also partnered with PA, so he was placing himself in the big dog market with the intent to make money, not just contribute for the love of the hobby.

Will this stifle innovation, doubtful, those for instance like the Onds, Knievels, Degenatrons, who show what they want people to enjoy and run with it.  I think this is just a lesson learned to be careful exposing your ideas if your intent is capital gain.

People release free stuff, plans, ideas on here all the time, all the forum asked is that you give a kind shout-out.  In this case, nobody asked permission for either side.  Josh didn't ask to use Randy and Andy's innovations for his project and Andy didnt ask Josh to duplicate his project.  So technically its a wash, Andy will probably lose cool points, but he does offer good products, and to say you refuse to buy a good product due to a minor foul is just plain stupid.

In summary this is all about leaving the little guy alone so he can make money, both are wrong here and no one more than the other.  Buy from who want based on the value of the product not by business practices.

I mean shoot, Bill gates borrowed windows ideas from Apple, but i'm sure every soul on here is still buying window right...no real difference here.

 End of

[yotsuya]

This from the man who has the best, cheapest hobbyist trackball/spinner encoder out there. Well said, Rodney! 

[Generic Eric]

This from the man who has the best, cheapest hobbyist trackball/spinner encoder out there. Well said, Rodney! 

rablack97 did?  I'll have to look for a link. 

[yotsuya]

This from the man who has the best, cheapest hobbyist trackball/spinner encoder out there. Well said, Rodney! 

rablack97 did?  I'll have to look for a link.

It was a nominee for the 2013 BYOACs.

[lilshawn]

There is no need for drama. Business is business. if you start getting all wrapped up about it, things will start going downhill because people are spiteful. (aww man this guy or that guy, get a load of them! screw this guy) Flattery is the sincerest form of copying...or something like that. people have options...and that is good...for all those involved. if we didn't have options, there would be a monopoly and nobody likes that. competition forces producers to make better products, provide better services, provide something different. if you like the something different, you choose them.  Monopoly causes (makes? chooses to?) companies to be lazy and provide only the bare minimum needed to sustain. "good enough"  is good enough. People who have to deal with monopolies know... (gas companies, power companies, part suppliers, the list goes on) they have no reason to keep you. you HAVE to come to them.

also:

[8BitMonk]

I'd rather have a vendor who plans ahead, thinks about the competition and evolves in real time than someone flying by the seat of their pants. A business owner who waits an extra month for their competitions release dates wouldn't be around long. I don't see anything Andy did as unethical, it was what any good business owner would have done. Good business decisions are what keeps him able to survive and support the community.

I Kickstarted the Howler board and just got mine yesterday, excited to use it! I've also bought a bunch of stuff from Andy over the years and will continue to do so.

[Generic Eric]

I Kickstarted the Howler board and just got mine yesterday

[pbj]

It is truly amazing how many titans of industry we have been blessed with at BYOAC

[Generic Eric]

It is truly amazing how many titans of industry we have been blessed with at BYOAC

Oscar Controls

[Crazy Cooter]

LOL.  People should think a little harder about who should be the one that's pissed off in this thread.

Here's the scenario you need to consider:
I'm mounting boards I bought from Andy and only find 7 of the 8 screws I need. Then the idea hits me... A single board.  So I advertise on the Internet I want to combine two existing boards and a market is shown to exist to make this economically feasible.  All of this is online and fully public including pricing, potential customer feedback, etc.  The entire business plan is on the net.  The company that makes the two original boards determines they can work within those margins and combines their own stuff.

I'm not knocking the work it took to bring the Howler to market, in fact, I might even buy one based on the price comparison alone BUT to tell Andy that he needed to call a competitor to tell them he was combining two of his own product designs is as ludicrous as telling him he needs to coordinate the launch of said device to allow market share to the other product.

[sarcasm] Of course I do realize this bridge has never been crossed before and that's why our options are: a sole source keyboard encoder vs mapping keyboard ghosting, a sole source game pad encoder vs hacking game pads, a sole source led controller, 1980 buttons and joys, rusty old spinners.... [/sarcasm]

Now can someone put a table together comparing these two products?  What exactly are the differences?  We're beyond page one without a list specs here guys.

--edit: added info below--
This is from me reading some stuff online so it may not be 100% accurate (and since the Howler is new it's documentation is still incomplete/hard to find) but here goes:

HOWLER: MSRP $99
Emulates- Keyboard?
Inputs- 48?
LED channels- 96
Colors- RGB
Brightness Levels- 255
Software- Open Source
Terminals- Screws
Interface- USB x.x?
key mapping- Programmable
4-player support- ?
Other- Accelerometer (This is a great idea)
Power Supply (wall wart?)
USB Cable
Disadvantages- ?

I-PAC ULTIMATE: MSRP $99
Emulates- Keyboard, Mouse, Game Controller and Power/Volume Control
Inputs- 48
LED channels- 96
Colors- RGB
Brightness Levels- 256
Software- Proprietary
Terminals- Pins
Interface- USB 2.0
key mapping- Programmable (MAME is default)
4-player support- with $19 expansion card
Other- Shift function for buttons
Power Cable included (from PC = 4-pin?)
USB Cable included
Microswitch harness (32 inputs included, add'l harness is needed for other 16)
Ground harness included (assumed to be 32)
Disadvantages- Trackball / Spinner not supported in 4-player configuration

I think the accelerometer is a big plus for the Howler.  More info on this please.

[NLS]

I woke up (if it gets approved) this fossil thread, for two reasons.

1) I am the guy that first notified Andy of the Hawler.

2) To update on how things are 3 years after this whole semi-civilized flame war. (I was a backer and have unit since back then)

---
So here is what I want to "contribute" to bring this up to date (plus my personal view).

1) Months after Hawler was out of Kickstarter and then sold (?) from Josh's own site, the whole thing seemed (and still looks) pretty much dead. The device got a couple of firmware and software updates (last update to bring shift functionality - this for Cooter's comparison above). I have emailed Josh more than once (a few months after this thread) and NEVER got a reply. Seems he abandoned the whole thing (including supporting existing units), which definitely takes a thumbs down from me. Maybe he sees this post and actually replies something.

2) AFAIK nothing ever got "open sourced" after all. Another thumbs down.

3) If this was indeed an open source project, then the whole "he stole my idea" thing was pointless. Josh got more than enough money for the original design in Kickstarter, plus some sales afterwards I presume. So if this was to be an open source project he is already covered. There is no "stealing" in open source.

4) Some (inc. Andy) pointed, but I will too, since some people don't realize it, that Andy HAD those things waaaaaaaaaaay before Hawler. Hawler was merely a "merge". Yes interesting and useful and yes it wasn't done before in THIS extend, but the functionality was there already. I would say Josh copied from Andy (and anything else out there). Which is also OK, since he didn't copy actual hardware design, just the idea.

5) When I first informed Andy, he told me he had something like that on the drawing board (not sure why he didn't mention this here), but wasn't sure there was a point to bring it to the market, but since Hawler seemed to raise interest, he would (what became i-PAC Ultimate). I don't see something wrong with that.

6) Ultimarc (@AndyWarne) and GGG (#RandyT) are still here. Wolfware, hardly (unless proven otherwirse - definitely never got real customer support a few months after release though and that doesn't change).

7) I am still not fully covered by what is out in the market. I would love an i-PAC Ultimate 2 with more analog and digital inputs. Some complex 2 player designs and many 4 player designs are not covered by a single board.

To sum up. Seems time has cleared things up. Seems Josh's project was a shooting star. Hope he is OK, but he definitely didn't really stand up to his product after all.

(can't see user profiles to verify more what I saying)

[lilshawn]

a pie in the sky dream of easy money... but once the chips hit the table, found out this was going to be more work than he'd planned on.

hopefully it was a lesson learned.

[HaRuMaN]

I had a howler and while it worked it was pretty great.  But after a month it stopped working.   

[n3wt0n]

I have a Howler and it does what it is supposed to do. I had some issues when I first set it up but Josh responded to emails fairly and quickly and helped me out. That being said I don't think that there is any more support for this product (unless Josh is around and says otherwise). It's unfortunate that things went down the way they did because I still like using my Howler. I don't regret my decision made back in the day because when I made my purchase it was the only option but without any type of support I couldn't bring myself to purchase another one. I actually don't even know if they are still available for sale - Paradise doesn't seem to have it on their website and the links to the shop on the official product page are dead.

I had a howler and while it worked it was pretty great.  But after a month it stopped working.   

Haruman, I am curious to know what happened to your Howler? Did it burn up or did it just stop working?

[HaRuMaN]

Just stopped, no idea why. No obvious damage

Sent from my SPH-L710T using Tapatalk

[armi0024]

Ok, I'm sorry but I'm going to chime in. 
I get along with Andy, don't know if anyone get's along with Randy

I don't think Josh thought this was easy money at all, he worked really hard to pull this off then felt like it was swept out from under him at the launch.  I know from conversations he was working through the optimization but became very disengaged when the Ultimarc release happened, right or wrong this was not mal-intent.

I do think we walk a fine line.   It is true, Randy and Andy are still here, but basically selling the same stuff they were 10 years ago except when someone else does something like the howler.   So how do you balance this, encourage innovation.  This market is much more territorial than most of the customers realize, and that's a shame.

I do wish more people like Josh would push things, but I'm not sure about the answer.  I think ressurecting this thread is going to little more than open old wounds, but, hey what's done is done

[ChanceKJ]

.

[NLS]

Ok, I'm sorry but I'm going to chime in. 
I get along with Andy, don't know if anyone get's along with Randy

How about Josh?

I don't think Josh thought this was easy money at all, he worked really hard to pull this off then felt like it was swept out from under him at the launch.  I know from conversations he was working through the optimization but became very disengaged when the Ultimarc release happened, right or wrong this was not mal-intent.

I think he felt his idea was cool, then realized that in the Real World (TM) nobody would just say "wow cool man, take a nice big chunk of the market".
Nothing happened to him "at the launch". At launch he was actually alone and free to make his offer irresistible. Apart from a coupld of mediocre sw/fw updates, nothing else.
If he was disengaged because he faced the free market, it was wrong any way you see it. I don't say (and don't believe) he planned for a "grab n' run", but well this is what happened in the end.
Few months (not even a full year) of support for the first customers and then Mr. Invisible.

I do think we walk a fine line.   It is true, Randy and Andy are still here, but basically selling the same stuff they were 10 years ago except when someone else does something like the howler.   So how do you balance this, encourage innovation.  This market is much more territorial than most of the customers realize, and that's a shame.

I agree with what you say. Since they are part of an oligopoly, they make the rules.
They don't even compete each other.
Would love more innovation in the field.
Then again they deal with a market that comes from the 80ies, so nobody actually pushes them to advance the market.
I remember when I told Andy about a cool extra feature one of his signature product could have, he told me he had plans for that and designed and sent to his manufacturing (Chinese) partner to make some test units but they didn't come and he would ask again... well suffice to say, he finally posted SOMETHING in his site about that extra feature maybe more than a year later.
Indeed they don't feel any push, so they just work with what they have. I don't like it either.
I don't see how it would change. Not with business rookies like Josh "buhuhu that man stole my toy".

I do wish more people like Josh would push things, but I'm not sure about the answer.  I think ressurecting this thread is going to little more than open old wounds, but, hey what's done is done

Agreed. I just wanted to bring this up to date.

[ark_ader]

Thanks for reminding me why I don't buy from ultimarc and point my customers, clients and friends to ggg.com for arcade parts.

[pbj]

"Hawler."

Ok, bro, thanks.

 

[NLS]

Thanks for reminding me why I don't buy from ultimarc and point my customers, clients and friends to ggg.com for arcade parts.

I don't really get why you said that, but whatever. Your choice.

"Hawler."

Ok, bro, thanks.

 

Explain?
Ah because I mistyped the name.
Yeah cool bro.

https://giphy.com/gifs/southparkgifs-l0HlU16I1lIsgVmTu

[rackoon]

I have built 6 cabs over the last 11 years. I have used both
GGG and Ultimarc many times and man the customer service it top notch with both. Emails with questions are always responded to super fast. I also think the prices are fair for the market. It has been a real pleasure watching all the products coming to market over the years.  I would just feel like a backstabber trying to save a buck and not giving them my patronage. 

If a new brand hit the market, it is going to have to do something special that the others cant. For example I love the custom JLF led sticks from paradise and they are the only ones I know have these, wicked fast for fighting games.