Author Topic: Flicker on Sony Trinitron (Read 9918 times)

loungelizard · « **on:** March 31, 2014, 05:53:14 pm »

Hi all,

After a lot of fiddling with powerstrip soft15k and the Nvidia drivers, I still can't get rid of the flickering lines running vertically up edges.

Does anyone here have a ballpark area of why it is doing this???

I'm running from the VGA to a converter going into the TV via the yellow video RCA.

Any/all help would be greatly appreciated.

rCadeGaming · « **Reply #1 on:** April 01, 2014, 06:36:26 pm »

What kind of converter is it? A yellow video RCA jack is composite. VGA to composite converters are generally garbage. They usually scale the video to 480i so it can be encoded, ruining any native resolutions being output by the PC.

You'll need a quality VGA to component transcoder and a standard definition TV with component inputs to get an arcade monitor-quality picture from a TV.

So here for recommendations on transcoders:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121491.msg1392896.html#msg1392896

Also:

Quote from: rCadeGaming on October 09, 2013, 10:42:37 am

Soft15kHz is really not the best option anymore.

First of all, it's silly to use a real CRT and not use GroovyMAME, and that works hand in hand with CRT_Emudriver. GM can generate resolutions on the fly to keep everything native res (and native refresh, very important), saving you a lot of work; and it has a lot of other important features for native res even if you don't use the auto-generation.

Even if not using GM, tweaking your resolutions in Soft15kHz requires editing the text modelines by hand (super tedious), or using Powerstrip. Powerstrip was not really designed for this application, it's very cumbersome, and does not even fit on the screen in lower resolutions. CRT_Emudriver includes ArcadeOSD, which was purposely designed for this, is just as powerful if not more so, more flexible, and much easier to use.

Making the change only takes a couple of minutes once you have the right graphics card (which can be dirt cheap). I started with Soft15kHz, and resisted making the change because I had some GeForce cards on hand (only compatible with Soft15kHz). When I finally switched over to CRT_Emudriver, I was really kicking myself for not doing it sooner.

loungelizard · « **Reply #2 on:** April 03, 2014, 02:59:31 pm »

Hi,

Thanks for the reply, the exact transcoder/converter is this:

http://www.jammaboards.com/store/vga-pc-to-tv-ntsc-pal-commercial-video-converter-unit-av3500.html

It took me ages to find the right sized telly to go in my machine, so not going to be changing it,

http://fr.tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2rr1o4x&s=8#.Uz2yiSgwY5w

I don't have RGB on the telly, just S-video and the yellow composite, I have scart at the back, I tried to make a scart to vga with a wake up from the PC connector, but failed.

Is it really necessary to pay that price for a transcoder to not give me that horrible flicker?? Or is there a way to get a good image on my existing TV.

Thanks in advance

rCadeGaming · « **Reply #3 on:** April 09, 2014, 11:46:16 am »

Judging from the specs, that converter will neither accept nor output native arcade resolutions (224p-256p). Unfortunately, we have yet to find a good option that can transcode these resolutions to composite or s-video. The current situation is that you won't be able to get away from 480i and its flicker without upgrading to a standard def TV with component inputs (or RGB SCART), or an arcade monitor.

I've recently been talking with Calamity (CRT_Emudriver/GroovyMAME creator) about making a solution to allow native res from MAME through composite or s-video. Do you have any soldering experience? Would you like to try out a circuit I have in mind?

loungelizard · « **Reply #4 on:** April 10, 2014, 01:14:10 pm »

Hello,

I do have soldering experience, yes. chuck the diagram over and I'll have a look, I have some bits and bobs around the house and anything missing ebay is my friend.

As for the Trinitron, I do have SCART inputs. Could I just get a SCART to VGA from the monitor out on the converter?

I was thinking of trying another converter with the SCART VGA idea.

rCadeGaming · « **Reply #5 on:** April 11, 2014, 05:59:19 pm »

Does the SCART input accept RGB? I think most TV's with a SCART input do, but SCART can also carry composite and s-video, so you might want to check.

Anyhow, if the TV does have an RGB SCART input, don't bother with any transcoding/converting. VGA carries RGB and SCART carries RGB, you just need to combine sync and provide switching voltages.

http://www.geocities.ws/podernixie/htpc/cables-en.html

If in fact it's not an RGB SCART input, let me know if you're still interested in the RGB to composite schematic.

loungelizard · « **Reply #6 on:** April 12, 2014, 03:50:14 am »

I have a cable that I made to try that but the sync was out hence the fail (just flicks vertically), I'll follow the guide and let you know.

The model is "Sony Trinitron KV-25FX30B" In theory I should be able to go directly from the graphics card to the telly then.

I have all the manuals for it, I'll have a look through them to see if it is RGB compatible.

"Question, do I have to connect the dotted RGB wires on pins 6-7 and 8 ?

rCadeGaming · « **Reply #7 on:** April 12, 2014, 03:18:43 pm »

Those are the ground lines for red, green, and blue. A lot of inputs and outputs actually have all the grounds (VGA pins 5, 6, 7, 8 & 10) tied together anyhow, but providing separate grounding wires shouldn't hurt.

loungelizard · « **Reply #8 on:** April 12, 2014, 03:32:24 pm »

Can't wait to see if it works. I found the pinout for the scart plug of my TV in the service manual and it mentions the RGB placements as on the diagram so all should be good.

I'll connect them up as soon as I get the 1k resistors delivered (3-4 days from the UK).

rCadeGaming · « **Reply #9 on:** April 13, 2014, 07:15:23 pm »

Cool. Let me know how it goes.

loungelizard · « **Reply #10 on:** April 14, 2014, 12:16:16 pm »

Was looking at your schematic, and isn't 75ohm video cable a little overkill for the size of the solder wells and general space on a 15 pin D-sub ? It's basically coax.

Do you have any links to cheap Multichannel 75 ohm Video Coaxial Cable, or should they be separate channels ie one coax per colour?

rCadeGaming · « **Reply #11 on:** April 14, 2014, 05:07:31 pm »

It isn't that big if it's multi-wire, maybe try using the cable from a quality VGA cable.

loungelizard · « **Reply #12 on:** April 19, 2014, 07:36:54 am »

Small update, nearly got all the ingredients, just missing the VGA connector.

Meanwhile, the cable that I failed on the first time was from this forum:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=77370.0

Any idea why it didn't work in comparison to your schematic? other than the syncs not being in the same place at all.

rCadeGaming · « **Reply #13 on:** April 19, 2014, 09:34:18 am »

The biggest problem is that the schematic there is calling VGA pin 13 composite sync, which is wrong. Pin 13 is horizontal sync, pin 14 is vertical. Sometimes you can tell the graphics card to output composite sync on the horizontal sync line via software, but this only works with some graphics cards and not others. I hope there is some explanation of that in the thread somewhere. I didn't read all 12 pages. It's sorely outdated anyhow, as it recommends Soft15kHz.

In any case, even if a graphics is able to output composite sync, you have to adjust every single modeline you make to specify this, which is an unnecessary PITA. Combining the outgoing sync signals physically avoids the problem.

What graphics card are you using? To be sure it will work, I would spend a few dollars on eBay and get something compatible with CRT_Emudriver.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Asus-ATI-Radeon-HD-4350-512MB-Video-Card-DVI-HDMI-SILENT-EAH4350-DI-512MD2-/121319482477?pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item1c3f34646d

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ASUS-EAH4350-SILENT-DI-512MD2-LP-RADEON-HD-4350-512MB-Low-Profile-PCIe-VGA-/251505911554?pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item3a8eeba702

loungelizard · « **Reply #14 on:** April 20, 2014, 07:33:59 am »

I have two (PCIe), the one installed is nvidia 7300 bought to use with soft15khz

and an asus 9400 GT

I presume neither are compatible.

I'm running 7 at the mo, but might reinstall tinyXP or a streamlined version of XP.

rCadeGaming · « **Reply #15 on:** April 20, 2014, 12:58:55 pm »

Nope, those aren't compatible. The one you PM'ed me about should be excellent though.

GroovyMAME is transitioning to Windows 7 right now. Not sure if all the bugs are totally ironed out yet, but it will get there. If you do want to switch to Windows XP it will be a sure thing. I mean normal XP though, I'm not sure tinyXP is recommend. I use an n-lited XP 64, works great. Definitely use a 64-bit build if you have a multi-core processor.

loungelizard · « **Reply #16 on:** April 20, 2014, 02:02:14 pm »

Started bidding on one

I'm running Mame and Mala. No problems with performance speed is great with 2 CPU's, just the flicker as in my original post.

Whilst waiting for the version for 7, the cable mod should still work without using crt-emu driver and groovymame right?

rCadeGaming · « **Reply #17 on:** April 20, 2014, 02:05:55 pm »

That depends on whether your setup with the nVidia and Soft15kHz is working correctly. For one thing, I'm not sure that Soft15kHz works with Windows 7.

loungelizard · « **Reply #18 on:** April 20, 2014, 02:14:00 pm »

possibly why I had trouble

Is it imperative to run at 15k with the cable then?

rCadeGaming · « **Reply #19 on:** April 20, 2014, 02:28:23 pm »

It doesn't matter what kind of connection you use. A standard definition won't display any signal that doesn't have a horizontal scan rate of around 15kHz. This is fine for use with MAME, as 90% of the games in it are designed for 15kHz tubes.

You're on the right track. The TV sounds good, you're making the cable, you're bidding on a great graphics card; just put all of it together with XP and CRT_Emudriver and see how it works. I just wouldn't put any time into an intermediate solution using Soft15kHz.

Also, it's not that GroovyMAME isn't functional in Windows 7 right now, I just think XP will be more of a sure thing to make sure everything's working. I'd try 7 after confirming that everything's good on the hardware side.

loungelizard · « **Reply #20 on:** April 20, 2014, 03:12:31 pm »

I don't have a preference for 7, I installed it by accident really, knowing that it is better to use XP.

I have a keyboard hack control pannel, a trackball and a spinner made from an old ball USB mouse. Hope all that works with XP.

OnlÚ annoying thing with XP is that it only sees 2Gb of ram, or is 64bit different in that respect. I have 4Gb in the machine.

rCadeGaming · « **Reply #21 on:** April 20, 2014, 03:17:48 pm »

I can't recall off-hand if this is consistent with what I've seen before, but after a quick Google search this is what Wikipedia has to say about it:

"The primary benefit of moving to 64-bit is the increase in the maximum allocatable random access memory (RAM). Windows XP 32-bit is limited to a total of 4 gigabytes. Although the theoretical memory limit of a 64-bit computer is about 16 exabytes (16 billion gigabytes), Windows XP x64 is limited to 128 GB of physical memory and 16 terabytes of virtual memory."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP_Professional_x64_Edition

Might want to double check that.

loungelizard · « **Reply #22 on:** April 20, 2014, 04:08:54 pm »

Think I might get another Sata drive so that I don't have to start a fresh. Then if all is good, I'll scrap the 7 installation.

I have the PC wired into the machine with the HD light linked to one of the coin-door lights, gives a faulty light effect and another for the marquee, If I reinstall it will be with a monitor at the side, can't be bothered to rip all that out.

Just out of curiosity, why is the 4350 the better option out of all the others on the CRT-Emudriver page?

http://mame.3feetunder.com/windows-ati-crt-emudriver/

rCadeGaming · « **Reply #23 on:** April 21, 2014, 06:21:52 pm »

It doesn't have a minimum dot clock restriction, and, along with the 9250 and X300-600, has been proven to be the most flexible. It's also cheap, common, and fanless. It should be powerful enough for any MAME use, as it's mostly dependent on the cpu. If you wanted something more powerful for use with other graphics-card dependent games or emulators, an HD4890 is your best bet, but those are much more expensive.

loungelizard · « **Reply #24 on:** April 22, 2014, 10:57:36 am »

Hi all,

My machine is purely for arcade roms using mame so no need for the extra oompf on the GPU side, like you said it is mostly CPU based power that is needed.

just finalising a purchase of a "Saphire ATI Radeon HD4350 512MB" for 20€ (result), waiting on one more part for the cable then it will be the moment of truth. after a quick XP install.

BTW, If anyone reading has made this cable with this kind of setup they are welcome to hijack the thread, all input is welcome.

adder · « **Reply #25 on:** April 22, 2014, 11:29:15 am »

Quote from: loungelizard

BTW, If anyone reading has made this cable with this kind of setup they are welcome to hijack the thread, all input is welcome.

a vga to rgb scart cable? yes i made one and is working ok
i did the method of connecting vga pin 13 to scart pin 20, in which case i had to set my ATI gfx under windows xp to output composite sync (this isnt hard to do, you just have to run the free program available called 'winmodelines', and then you will see a checkbox to enable csync (composite sync). you choose that option, apply, reboot, and then your windows registry is changed permanently so your ati card is now always outputting in composite sync mode (note. you can instead set your ati gfx card to output composite sync by using ati catalyst control centre, but personally i didnt want to install that and also microsoft framework 2.0, so i chose the small light simple winmodelines program).
i since read that there is another method to make the vga to scart cable which is, instead you can connect both pins 13 and 14 from vga to scart pin 20. then you dont have to set your windows setup to output composite sync. i havnt tried making a cable like this though, so am unsure if there is anything else which needs to be done, such as add additional components to the cable such as diodes). for my original cable i dont have any diodes, the only component being used is a 100ohm resistor as explained here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=77370.0

loungelizard · « **Reply #26 on:** April 22, 2014, 12:00:30 pm »

Thats the cable I made and failed on, I just used the converter after that on the composite, which gives the horrible flicker in the first post.

any chance of a couple of second video of your result, maybe using super pang as on my vid for comparison between composite through a converter and your results?

adder · « **Reply #27 on:** April 22, 2014, 01:39:29 pm »

hello sorry i was very slow to watch your video in your first post
it looks like from your video you are experiencing 'dot crawl'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_crawl
i think the only solution is to not use composite video
i uploaded a video to show how the image from a vga to rgb scart cable looks on my crt tv, the video is quite short because i have very poor upload speed at the moment:
(note: i recommend clicking on the Download button, not the Watch button, as watching it online on their player i notice the video quality is poor and playback is not so smooth)

loungelizard · « **Reply #28 on:** April 22, 2014, 01:42:45 pm »

Nice vid, thats exactly what I hope to achieve.

Yeah, not using composite is the way forward.

What is your setup, GPU, etc... ?

adder · « **Reply #29 on:** April 22, 2014, 01:53:28 pm »

to be honest my setup is not great at the moment so i am in the process of switching to groovymame
i have a P4 3.4ghz with 2gb of ram, it is 64bit capable which helps, but soon i will update to something like a core2duo 3.33ghz (dell optiplex is a good option, as drivers are available for windows xp 64bit)
if you want to keep up with mame, its approaching time to forget about pentium4 processors, and pentium dual core. avoid amd. these days i would recommend a higher end core2duo processor, which are not so expensive nowadays. if you can afford i3, i5, i7 processor, great. and running 64bit mame is important now (the 32bit users are now becoming left behind).
i am using a minipac and use real arcade joystick and buttons which i have put in a wooden box so it is like a portable arcade control panel

i am using and have a few spare crt tv's, i like around 20" size so this is all i keep. all are rgb scart (i am in uk europe).
my problem is i am reasonably happy with how everything is but i need to eliminate some input lag (which i get if using regular mame or others like mameuifx)
my recommendations are to use one of the ati video cards recommended on the crt emudriver page (currently i have ati x300.. very cheap on ebay and no fan, so quiet.. plus i am mostly interested in eighties games so dont care about 3d or gfx intensive games)
i would recommend groovymame although it can be tricky to use for new people (like me) so be prepared to read as much information as you can etc
i recommend a 64bit operating system so you can use 64bit mame. (im using windowsxp 64bit)
i recommend (if possible) to use vga to rgb scart if you can (if that is not possible then there are other options of course, but this is out of my area of knowledge. as you probably already realised, rCadeGaming is the man to help with that stuff)
i would not recommend composite video, or svideo. i dont recommend interlace either (but of course sometimes it is necessary for eg. windows desktop etc). it is not worth wasting time with lower video methods such as composite. even if you are happy for a while, it wont be long before you look at other peoples setups and realise that you are unsatisfied with yours and want something more, so it is best to aim straight for the top, and have some fun and adventures on the way

loungelizard · « **Reply #30 on:** April 22, 2014, 03:30:22 pm »

OK, here we go:

I bought the original cab for 50€ with everything inside (old parts)except a game cartridge. needless to say, it was all ripped out and put in a box in the cellar.

New parts config:
CPU - Intel Pentium G630 Sandy Bridge 2x 2.7GHz LGA 1155 - runs really well, no swlowdown on any games (mame, not tested with anything else)
Mobo - DH67VR - 64bit window 7 installed but will revert back to 64bit XP for the GPU change and cable build.
Fan - coolermaster 212 (big mamma jamma)
Screen - sony Trinitron kv-25fx30b - (25" JUST fits in a 56cm cab)
RAM - 2x 2Gb Ripjaw

Hacked controllers - PC MAC USB 12 Buttons Game pad (they are cheap on ebay but work well)
Buttons and sticks - 2 x BALLTOP JOYSTICKS & 20 ARCADE BUTTONS KIT - (going to ditch the two green buttons on the main panel)
Spinner - Hacked USB ball mouse

Trackball as mouse and buttons on the left and right for mouse clicks. (I hate having to open the machine for doing "PC" stuff, kills the charm).
Hacked keyboard to a homemade control panel for all non arcade functions.

Coindoor is the original with reconfigured mechs (for any coins), also wired into the spare buttons, so actually gives credits, there is also a credit button on the cpanel for testing/my lazy kids purposes. check the vid of my simulated "dodgy bulb" (HDD activity) mod :

Composite was OK until I noticed the "dot crawl", now it just annoys me too much, thats why I'm going to put my faith in rCadeGaming's knowledge.

Not tried groovymame yet, but will do when I reinstall.

Had to trawl through ebay to find the parts I bought. pheow !!!

*** End of saga ***

adder · « **Reply #31 on:** April 22, 2014, 06:00:33 pm »

cool, i seem to paint everything black also

ps. i like the hdd light feature, nice

loungelizard · « **Reply #32 on:** April 23, 2014, 12:03:37 pm »

Yeah, black seems to be the easiest base colour.

It looked cool all in white with the undercoat, seemed a shame to cover it with black but hey, I like the chrome and black combo

Still no VGA connector in the post today GRRR, did pay for the graphics card and a 500gb HDD for XP though.

loungelizard · « **Reply #33 on:** May 03, 2014, 03:15:59 pm »

ok, cable is made, graphics card is installed, HDD is waiting in the wings to have 64bit XP installed.

I found this walkthrough on the net, any good? : http://pastebin.com/cpbAZamc

Also, do I have to use groovymame with crt_emudriver?

What else should I know before doing it?? going t ground zero tomorrow, don't want to kill my telly..

adder · « **Reply #34 on:** May 03, 2014, 03:22:34 pm »

i would recommend groovymame and crt_emudriver yes as it is the best solution for your needs
i havnt set up groovymame myself yet (but plan too eventually

) so cant offer a great deal of advice
there is another guide here but i have not tried it:
http://forum.arcadeotaku.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=24216
there is also some help here by Calamity in the first post of this thread:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,135823.0.html
i would recommend taking it one step at a time and if you get stuck ask questions in the groovymame sub-forum here on byoac

loungelizard · « **Reply #35 on:** May 03, 2014, 03:40:02 pm »

Probably a stupid question, can I still use mala with GM ??

Yeltsew7 · « **Reply #36 on:** May 03, 2014, 04:17:24 pm »

I am wondering this too. So far, MaLa hasn't worked with GM, but I don't have CRT_emudriver installed, as I am just on my laptop for testing for now, until I get my TV all set up.

rCadeGaming · « **Reply #37 on:** May 03, 2014, 04:19:04 pm »

No idea on mala, but I would listen to Jadder's advice. A better question is why would you want to not use GM?

loungelizard · « **Reply #38 on:** May 03, 2014, 04:31:42 pm »

I'm definitely going to set it all up, like I said the HDD is all ready to put XP on, I'll keep my W7 installation as a back up system, I'm just wondering in advance..

If GM has decent front end then I can use it stand-alone and mod the look.
If not then it should be ok to point mala to the GM exe or whatever drives the game instead of mame32 or 64.

Might play around in a sandbox version on parallels first then go live with CRT_emudriver.

Me thinks that rome will not be built in a day.

Just read the beginning of this thread - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=113817.0 - I'm hoping that I don't have to configure every game individually, my actual setup kicks ass for that, everything works, I just hate the flicker. It's less on PAL than NTSC but the refresh rate is lower, sacrifices, sacrifices....

rCadeGaming · « **Reply #39 on:** May 03, 2014, 06:52:00 pm »

CRT_Emudriver/GroovyMAME seems to be coming along nicely for Windows 7 now if you want to stick with that.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,138903.0.html

GroovyMAME doesn't really have a front-end, it works like normal command-line MAME. You'll want to use it with a front-end the way you would with vanilla MAME.

loungelizard · « **Reply #40 on:** May 04, 2014, 04:03:15 am »

no Beta on the site for 7, or am I being incredibly lazy and noobish?

Yeltsew7 · « **Reply #41 on:** May 04, 2014, 09:06:10 am »

You have to PM Calamity for the drivers.

rCadeGaming · « **Reply #42 on:** May 04, 2014, 09:31:51 am »

There's a link to them in the thread I just linked to in my last post here.

Calamity · « **Reply #43 on:** May 05, 2014, 02:51:35 am »

Quote from: rCadeGaming on May 04, 2014, 09:31:51 am

There's a link to them in the thread I just linked to in my last post here.

Not really, it's a link to a GroovyMAME build.

rCadeGaming · « **Reply #44 on:** May 05, 2014, 08:51:09 am »

Well, that's the latest GM build for Windows 7, you'll need that. Do you need a different CRT_Emudriver build? Idk, I haven't been following the Windows 7 developments too closely.


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