Do LED monitors really look this crappy with mame?

[8BitMonk]

For years I've read posts about how LED monitors were getting closer to actual arcade monitors, you could hardly tell the difference anymore, actual arcade monitors aren't worth the hassle to setup etc. I finally bought a good 27" LED mainly for pc gaming and decided to try experimenting with mame as well and I have to say I think it looks like crap. Maybe I'm spoiled (jaded?) because I've used an arcade monitor all these years or perhaps doing something wrong and not getting the most out it, but I'm unimpressed.

I've messed with the mame HSL settings, downloaded several sure-shot configurations from various sites. Also tried tinted glass. While some games look relatively good many look absolutely horrible and none really compare to my Betson Imperial 27" with an AVGA card.

Am I missing something?  Help convince me LED's are usable with mame.

[chopperthedog]

No convincing needed, they are what they are and have their place and use in some projects and certain situations. But in the end, viva la CRT!


good day.

[DaveMMR]

You could try a hardware solution - like this:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129344.0.html

[chopperthedog]

It's not just about adding scanlines. A panel with never be able to recreate the phosphor trails and vivid color shifting of a good ole CRT tube. Things like the star field in the background of galaga just doesn't have the same luster on lcd. All the early Williams games imo MUST be played on a crt. The color frame used in attract mode on robotron is mesmerizing amongst many other clever uses of shifting colors used throughout other Williams games  that can only be appreciated on a nice bright cga CRT.


good day.

[michelevit]

Those CRTs are getting hard to come by. I think the problem is most scrap yards offer $ for them so its easy for see a haul there. Everytime I drop off my beer cans I see a pallet of CRTs and even pallets of Dell towers. The goofy thing is I wasn't able to purchase them from the recycler. There must be some law in effect.

[RandyT]

I hate to say this, but the best chance of emulating a CRT is going to be the 4k displays, a pantload of graphic horsepower and custom code.  Someone will do it as a "lark", the prices will comes down, and it will be the norm.  You just need to hoard CRTS until then 

[8BitMonk]

You could try a hardware solution - like this:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129344.0.html

I forgot to mention that I have a mini SLG (the original not the 2x) as well and wasn't happy with the results. It's better than without but still nowhere near the experience of an actual arcade monitor. I'm with Randy on hoarding, hopefully my Betson doesn't crap out anytime soon. I'm thinking an LCD like this http://na.suzohapp.com/all_catalogs/monitors/49-2861-20 might be a good alternative as you could supposedly pair it with an AVGA.

I'm surprised I see so many new cab designs with LCD or LED in the 16:9 aspect ratio when they're so clearly inferior for classic games. Granted they look great for modern PC games but why would I want to play those on my cab except for maybe a couple fighting games. For mame and classic arcade games I don't see how anyone who's seen both side-by-side could make the argument against a true arcade monitor.

[yotsuya]

I'm surprised I see so many new cab designs with LCD or LED in the 16:9 aspect ratio when they're so clearly inferior for classic games. Granted they look great for modern PC games but why would I want to play those on my cab except for maybe a couple fighting games. For mame and classic arcade games I don't see how anyone who's seen both side-by-side could make the argument against a true arcade monitor.

I just think most builders use what's on hand or easy to find. I'm with you, though. CRT FTW.

[ChanceKJ]

Yes yes yes, and in your day you all had to walk 15 miles to school when the horse "broke down".  In winter. With 5 feet of snow. Up hill, BOTH ways.

...in rubber boots.


Actually this brings up an interesting question. I had been toying with going to a pawn shop or equivalent and finding an old 14-17" CRT for my PacMan plug and play bartop project.  Is it worth spending $20 to buy an old little colour TV for a project like this and just strip it of the case? are those small TV's "good enough" for something like this?

[Paul Olson]

You could try a hardware solution - like this:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129344.0.html

I forgot to mention that I have a mini SLG (the original not the 2x) as well and wasn't happy with the results. It's better than without but still nowhere near the experience of an actual arcade monitor. I'm with Randy on hoarding, hopefully my Betson doesn't crap out anytime soon. I'm thinking an LCD like this http://na.suzohapp.com/all_catalogs/monitors/49-2861-20 might be a good alternative as you could supposedly pair it with an AVGA.

I'm surprised I see so many new cab designs with LCD or LED in the 16:9 aspect ratio when they're so clearly inferior for classic games. Granted they look great for modern PC games but why would I want to play those on my cab except for maybe a couple fighting games. For mame and classic arcade games I don't see how anyone who's seen both side-by-side could make the argument against a true arcade monitor.

I used an arcade monitor for about 8 years. It looked good, but it was a pain to mess with. I always wanted to use the bezel artwork in MAME, but it looked terrible on the low res monitor. Now I use an LCD TV, and I like it. Most games look great if you take the time to tweak them with hlsl. The last time I tried vectors, they weren't working right with hlsl, but that is still being worked on.

I have owned around 50 arcade games in the last 6 years. I can play a game out in the gameroom, then play it on MAME, and it really isn't a big difference even if I haven't taken the time with the shaders. A game that is displayed too big is worse for me than the sharpness of the LCD. I try to get the actual game screen to be the original size, then fill the rest of the TV up with artwork.

This is a DK layout I was working on a couple of years ago. I would guess most people would have to look at that pretty hard to realize that is on an LCD.

[Warborg]

You could try a hardware solution - like this:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,129344.0.html

I forgot to mention that I have a mini SLG (the original not the 2x) as well and wasn't happy with the results. It's better than without but still nowhere near the experience of an actual arcade monitor. I'm with Randy on hoarding, hopefully my Betson doesn't crap out anytime soon. I'm thinking an LCD like this http://na.suzohapp.com/all_catalogs/monitors/49-2861-20 might be a good alternative as you could supposedly pair it with an AVGA.

I'm surprised I see so many new cab designs with LCD or LED in the 16:9 aspect ratio when they're so clearly inferior for classic games. Granted they look great for modern PC games but why would I want to play those on my cab except for maybe a couple fighting games. For mame and classic arcade games I don't see how anyone who's seen both side-by-side could make the argument against a true arcade monitor.

I'm not sure about "clearly inferior", I'm pretty sure this particular 'argument' is very subjective.  Certainly CRTs are much more authentic for classic games, and if you are judging purely on authenticity I suppose you could say it's inferior...  But it really is in the eye of the beholder as to what looks "better", not to mention other criteria in the decision to use an LCD or a CRT.  Right now my cab has a 22" Viewsonic Professional PC CRT in it, so while still not "authentic" doesn't look half bad.  I've been thinking about rebuilding it into a pedestal with an LCD hanging on the wall in front of it...  I'm not overly concerned with authenticity as much as just having the old gameplay, and I really don't mind some filtering/enhancement depending on the game either (heck, if I were worried about authenticity I'd need to be in a crowded room with the din of all the games and music so loud I could barely hear myself think...    ).

[Kier]

I think its like this: To the purist, An LCD will never be the same. Never.

To anyone else who doesnt remember the old days, the LCD seems better, clearer, sharper, etc.

My kids prefer the look when playing Frogger on MAME, but prefer the real joystick of our Frogger cabinet.

[keilmillerjr]

I think its like this: To the purist, An LCD will never be the same. Never.

To anyone else who doesnt remember the old days, the LCD seems better, clearer, sharper, etc.

My kids prefer the look when playing Frogger on MAME, but prefer the real joystick of our Frogger cabinet.

My 27" aluminum iMac has one of the most brilliant LCD displays I've seen. It tops my hd LCD tv by far. However, I really enjoyed the screen on my old CRT G3 iMacs. I think the contrast was better. Colors seemed to mesh too. Maybe it's just me. CRT's are good. With that being said, I went with a large LCD for my project. I wanted something new, and new large crt's are expensive in comparison. I think coupled with the minislg, it will due just fine, but will not truly be authentic. Depends what your goals are. A multiple game mame machine isn't authentic anyways. If I was building a replica machine, it would definitely be a CRT.

[Warborg]

I think its like this: To the purist, An LCD will never be the same. Never.

To anyone else who doesnt remember the old days, the LCD seems better, clearer, sharper, etc.

My kids prefer the look when playing Frogger on MAME, but prefer the real joystick of our Frogger cabinet.

I'm not a purist, but I am quite old enough to remember "the old days"...    I still remember playing Asteroids, Pac-Man and Galaxian when they were new and hot...

[8BitMonk]

@Warbog: I agree about that it can be subjective, I probably should've said 'clearly inferior in my mind'. My unscientific and completely subjective opinion is that the difference is so dramatic that if you did side-by-side comparisons with the average person off the street nine out of ten of them would pick the arcade monitor as having markedly better display quality.

@Kier: I don't think it's about nostalgia or remembering them a certain way, just plain old visual quality. I'm not a 'purist' perse, I don't care if it looks exactly like the original, only that it looks great.

I tend to disregard comments by those who haven't setup both types and seen side-by-side comparisons since you really need to have seen a multitude of games setup correctly on both types of displays to make an informed judgement.

@Paul Olsen: Given you have a good base of experience to draw from I'm surprised you find the LED/LCD's so close in quality having seen many side-by-side comparisons. I just don't see it in my testing. With HSL settings tweaked I get alright results with some vertical games like DK and Galaga but can't get other games like Street Fighter to look even halfway decent. Having to tweak HSL settings on a per-game basis is also as much (or perhaps even more) of a hassle as setting up an arcade monitor.

So to the point of getting the best mame display results on an LCD/LED, does anyone else have any tips/tricks/HLSL settings to share?

Here's what I've personally tried:
Original Mini SLG
Tinted Glass
HLSL setting tweaks - 4 different 'best' versions scrounged online

[BadMouth]

http://youtu.be/YNFDkIZZRjI?t=50s

jump to 50 seconds in

[lcmgadgets]

Although my white elephant, when in the distant future it is finally finished, will have 2 LCD monitors, I agree with 'viva la CRT!' I have 4reasons for going LCD: Weight, size, availability, & weight. I'm going to have a rotating monitor & a LCD marquee, & that'll b enuf weight for me. It's too bad, too. There's a big 'ol CRT monitor (I think it's 20.5") collecting dust under my work table downstairs, a remnant from my early cab plans. I should find a home for it where it would b used, but...I'd miss it! 

[BadMouth]

With HSL settings tweaked I get alright results with some vertical games like DK and Galaga but can't get other games like Street Fighter to look even halfway decent. Having to tweak HSL settings on a per-game basis is also as much (or perhaps even more) of a hassle as setting up an arcade monitor.

I have the opposite problem: Street Fighter looks pretty good, but I can't get the older games to look right. 
I think it has a lot to do with using a larger monitor.

My settings for Street Fighter are attached to this post if you'd like to try them: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,135430.msg1400957.html#msg1400957

I ended up going the crazy route of making a different HLSL setup for each resolution.  I still have a few left to do.
I tried to come up with mathematical formulas for the perfect settings, but in the end trying to get the LCD screen to match close up pictures that I had take of real machines yielded the best results.  I will share them when I'm done, but they make look different on a smaller screen with a different resolution.  I also need to make a mask that makes the curvature around the edges look smooth.  Those jaggy edges bug me.

I don't pretend that it looks like the original CRT, but it looks better than the LCD without HLSL.

My main gripe with LCD is the lack of a pixel accurate light gun.

[adder]

something like the pic below is what id like to see being done on lcd's
it must be possible, as u are looking at it using your lcd screen right now
ps. and there isnt even horizontal scanlines and it still looks great

[pbj]

You know, I read the other day that CRT light guns will actually work on LCDs if you can get them to display the signal in the native resolution (480i).

I'm extremely skeptical of this claim but have no way of testing it.

[DaveMMR]

I'm of the "Viva la CRT" camp as well. I have my arcade monitor sitting in my parent's basement, waiting for a new home in a freshly built cabinet. This is partially why I abandoned a full-size slim.  I'd rather stand in front of a CRT than an LCD, even if I am saving space, and save the LCD for a bartop.

When it comes to classic consoles, however, I'm all about "go CRT or don't bother." I tried hooking up an NES, et. al. to a new LCD and it looked horrid. This is original hardware so there's no emulator tweaks to use. Besides that - I can find old TVs at yard sales, thrift stores and sometimes just sitting curbside with a sign that says "it works!" so there's little excuse not to use one for old consoles.

[ZeroPoint]

@ Paul Olson

Thanks for reminding me. That DK with the artwork looks like the real deal. Just forgot to tell you two years ago. 

New version for 0.152  available here:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,113151.msg1413508.html#msg1413508

My choice for a lcd-monitor is the Eizo fg2421. This is probably the best crt-like LCD around right now, and hlsl looks really amazing on this monitor.

[Warborg]

@Warbog: I agree about that it can be subjective, I probably should've said 'clearly inferior in my mind'. My unscientific and completely subjective opinion is that the difference is so dramatic that if you did side-by-side comparisons with the average person off the street nine out of ten of them would pick the arcade monitor as having markedly better display quality.

I understand, although I'm still not sure about "better" as opposed to "different"...  But then again, CRT did certainly have a quality to it that is hard to replicate on other types of displays.  I guess my personal view is maybe that LCD isn't "better" or anything, just that I'm willing to accept it with some tweaks (and at times don't mind setting up some additional filtering/blending/etc.) for some of the other conveniences it affords such as weight, energy consumption/heat output, and space savings...  Oh and cost vs. size...

Living in an apartment, building a smaller pedestal and sticking a flat panel on the wall in front of it is certainly a plus when you are trying to make the most out of the space you've got...

[RandyT]

You know, I read the other day that CRT light guns will actually work on LCDs if you can get them to display the signal in the native resolution (480i).

I'm extremely skeptical of this claim but have no way of testing it.

No need to test.  CRT lightguns rely on the scanning of the electron beam gun in a CRT, and use timing to figure out the location of that single point of light.  LCD's don't work even remotely similar, so it's not possible.

[Warborg]

I'm of the "Viva la CRT" camp as well. I have my arcade monitor sitting in my parent's basement, waiting for a new home in a freshly built cabinet. This is partially why I abandoned a full-size slim.  I'd rather stand in front of a CRT than an LCD, even if I am saving space, and save the LCD for a bartop.

When it comes to classic consoles, however, I'm all about "go CRT or don't bother." I tried hooking up an NES, et. al. to a new LCD and it looked horrid. This is original hardware so there's no emulator tweaks to use. Besides that - I can find old TVs at yard sales, thrift stores and sometimes just sitting curbside with a sign that says "it works!" so there's little excuse not to use one for old consoles.

I still have some of the older consoles sitting around, but at this point I'm not even really bothering trying to hook them to the LCD...  I already have an HTPC hooked to the TV, so at this point I'm just going to focus on setting up emus on it...  Going to try to cover Genesis, SNES, PSX, PS2, GC/Wii, some arcade, and even use ScummVM w/wiimote to play some of those awesome old point-and-clicks... 

[Paul Olson]

@ Paul Olson

Thanks for reminding me. That DK with the artwork looks like the real deal. Just forgot to tell you two years ago. 

New version for 0.152  available here:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,113151.msg1413508.html#msg1413508

My choice for a lcd-monitor is the Eizo fg2421. This is probably the best crt-like LCD around right now, and hlsl looks really amazing on this monitor.

Thank you! I tried to search for that thread for way to long before posting in this one, but I couldn't find it. Thanks for updating to the new version, I haven't messed with this much in the last 2 years.

Once I am done getting all of my controllers wired, and outputs working, then I am going to get back to the software. Hopefully that will be soon. I really need to work on Space Harrier. It definitely doesn't look great without any shader  tweaks.

I agree that the hlsl stuff can be as or more difficult that getting the right resolutions on an arcade monitor. It is still early in the development though, so it will probably get easier over time (since people like ZeroPoint are figuring out all of the hard stuff). There will be a lot of variations to handle though. The same shaders used on a 20" LCD are going to look completely different on a 50".

[BadMouth]

You know, I read the other day that CRT light guns will actually work on LCDs if you can get them to display the signal in the native resolution (480i).

I'm extremely skeptical of this claim but have no way of testing it.

No need to test.  CRT lightguns rely on the scanning of the electron beam gun in a CRT, and use timing to figure out the location of that single point of light.  LCD's don't work even remotely similar, so it's not possible.

I think he was just seeing if he could get anyone to waste their time trying it. 

Kinda made me wonder if an LCD could be made that drew the picture in the same order to simulate a CRT though.
It's not feasible with current protocols, but I wonder if it's technically possible.

[8BitMonk]

What about the Multi-Sync LCD I mentioned earlier in the thread:

http://na.suzohapp.com/all_catalogs/monitors/49-2861-20

Anyone have any experience with these paired with an AVGA?

[paigeoliver]

What about the Multi-Sync LCD I mentioned earlier in the thread:

http://na.suzohapp.com/all_catalogs/monitors/49-2861-20

Anyone have any experience with these paired with an AVGA?

There would be no reason to pair one of those with an arcadevga. As it is an LCD it is just going to stretch whatever you toss at it to its native resolution anyway. You might as well just send it a 1360x768 signal in the first place.

[8BitMonk]

For some reason I thought since it's listed as a multi-sync monitor it would do the lower refresh rates and resolutions. I guess it's just a standard LCD then?

[RandyT]

Kinda made me wonder if an LCD could be made that drew the picture in the same order to simulate a CRT though.
It's not feasible with current protocols, but I wonder if it's technically possible.

It's not technically possible.  LCD's are ultimately limited by the speed in which the crystals can change orientation in the suspension medium.  Even if you could coax an LCD into this behavior, you would need one with a refresh rate of (FPS x the number of physical pixels on the screen) x 2.  For a 1920x1080 screen at 60hz, this would mean that the screen refresh rate would need to be 248.8mhz.  Well beyond the common 120hz refresh rates and 6ms response times of LCD panels.

The only reason this works with a CRT is that only a single dot of light is ever on the screen at any given moment in time.  Only the lightgun can sense the exact moment when that single dot passes in front of it's sensor, while persistence of vision, coupled with a small amount of phosphor persistence, allows humans to see a complete image. 

[RandyT]

something like the pic below is what id like to see being done on lcd's
it must be possible, as u are looking at it using your lcd screen right now

The problem is that you are showing a magnified section of the screen.  That image of 1/4 of the screen has a resolution of 1024x768, and still doesn't capture all of the detail of the original.  So to effectively represent a full screen at that same quality, you would need a monitor with a native resolution of ~2048x1536, which is still higher than "Full HD", and then have the complex algorithms, computing and graphics horsepower to effectively duplicate it.  That's why I indicated that the 4k displays, with those same computing requirements, would have the best chance of doing this accurately.