Train simulator controller project

[shinyknight]

Hi all

I started this crazy project, so I can play my various train simulators (Microsoft Train sim and Train Simulator 2014), using something that has a real lever and buttons, instead than a keyboard.

So far, I have started using a Xbox360 wired controller, as logic board; I had one already, so this save me the purchase of the logic board for the controller. I am not sure what I can do with it, but it is a start...if it won't work;I will probably consider to buy one of these PCB where you can hook up multiple buttons and controls, or even one of these small micro controllers, like the Arduino.

Anyway; so far I have an idea of how I would like to make the controller, but I lack the experience I know that TS2014 uses an Xbox controller, so the idea is to just replace the controls and wire it up like an arcade stick, but I have also the pots to place.

I was thinking to remove the triggers and directional pots, and just extend the wires so I can place them directly on my controller; in this way there should be no real issue.

One of the problems thou is related to the pots: I have 2 linear 10K Ohm that I would like to use as throttle and brake, but the controls are digital and not analog....from what I can tell; they are more like a multiple position switch than a linear potentiometer, altho I have seen controls made for train simulator, like the rail driver controller (http://www.raildriver.com/products/raildriver.php), which uses lever and not switch.

I hope that you can give me some guidance on this project; seems that nobody ever made such thing; I am getting info going between flight simulator sites (section pit sim), and few other forums, but the replies are scarce, which makes me think that either whoever makes these controls keeps the "secrets" well hidden, or there is not really interest for such controllers, to even justify the waste of time in making one (altho they sell a lot of rail drivers controllers...which is not cheap BTW).

I have already the material; started to experiment with the Xbox controller PCB, so I don't need a step by step guide to make the controller; just some of your wisdom, since this is my first attempt at a custom controller (I made some arcade joystick out of other joystick boards, and few Atari joystick, but that's all).

Thanks in advance for any help you could give me...I believe that someone must have been making a lever control for a train simulator...it makes me cry in sadness thinking about the good time spent playing Densha de go on the Dreamcast, with that wonderful controller shaped as a train control

[ark_ader]

I'm not a train simulator fan, but I do like trains.  So I looked at the rail driver controller and it reminds me of those Japanese train games.  The rail driver reminded me of the steel battalion controller. 

http://bulk2.destructoid.com/ul/229691-review-steel-battalion-heavy-armor/SBcontroller-620x.jpg

It appears that a windows 7 x64 driver (sorry) is available.  Would it not be easier to mod the SB controller for your project?

[PL1]

Welcome aboard, Shinyknight.

The good news is that TS2014 does not appear to be limited to just XBox360 controllers since this guy is using a Saitek X52 controller throttle.

Since most of us aren't familiar with train simulator software/control requirements/where to find the manuals:

- Do the simulators have controller setup menus where you can assign/bind specific buttons or keystrokes?

- How many buttons and analog axes do you want/need and what functions will they perform?

- Are you planning to fab levers from scratch or adapt flight sim throttle quadrants?

If your 360 controller board doesn't work out, you might be able to adapt the KADESTICK linked in my sig to your controller or a U-HID from Ultimarc.


Scott

[shinyknight]

You guys rock Thanks for the quick reply!

Ark, I never knew that such control exist...this makes my day since I was planning also to make a sim pit for MWO  and other similar games Altho that's a near future project; I need first to find a place where to put the pit and try to not get kicked out from the house by my wife.

The control sadly can't be used for my purpose because it is massive; and has only one throttle; while the game requires at least 2, plus the hat to control the camera view (which this controller has); I may find one on Ebay maybe and give a try, but mod that one looks kinda an overkill for the control that I have in mind. I may have an use for it thou....thanks!

PL1: thanks for the link; I have a saitek and I will try it right now! The problem thou seems to be the same that I have: the throttle itself is not used; you use the buttons. I may live with it for the time being, but the fun of a train controller is the levers Kinda like you can play a flight sim just with a joypad and thumb sticks, but with a HOTAS is a totally different experience

For some reason, many games assign digital controls to something that should be drivable by analog...it really makes me angry sometimes; what's the deal in not supporting analog? Most if not all the controls in real life are analog after all; planes still use cables for their rudder Anyway; is not like anyone can hear me so it won't really change anything to express my frustration.

MSTS is driven mainly by keyboard; so anything that can assign keystroke (like the I-pac PCB and similar), can be used to make a control for it; not sure if is possible to translate that in a potentiometer logic; otherwise is a matter of getting a rotary switch with so many positions as the ones that the throttle can have; and basically have a switch on a handle I guess.

For TS2014 the things are different, since it accept controls from keyboards but won't recognize other controllers...for some reason it will see only the Xbox 360 controller, making impossible the usual operation of assign controls on the joystick. It would not even see the Saitek when I tried; but I didn't use a profile; the Saitek software send commands as keystroke I guess, fooling whatever application to believe that it is done via keyboard. A clever approach, altho I didn't try it with many games.

So to answer your first question: MSTS does have the capability to map controls, while TS2014 do not see anything but the keyboard and the xbox controller, so it has to be fooled.

I've attached the mapping of the controller from the TS2014 manual; as you can see; they mapped the trigger as simple button (the 2 triggers control the axis related to the throttle and brake decrease, while the LB and RB control the increase); so it is not a linear increase via analog, but a digital step up or down....a waste of an analog resource if you ask me

The Idea that I have is to use 2 analog controls, for throttle and brake (which is a natural choice I think; these would be the 2 analog axis; then I would use a 3 way selector (probably either a rotary switch or one of these switch that you find on the electric guitar to swap pickups) for the selector that pick which direction is the train going (neutral, forward or reverse). Then I would add probably at least 7-8 more buttons for the basic controls, like horn, bell, open/close door, lights , wipers, alarm reset, emergency brake. Is purely accessory to have buttons that change views and such; I can do it with the keyboard.

I was hoping to find something that I can adapt, but so far the only thing that is close to a lever quadrant is the throttle quadrant from saitek, with 3 lever; was not able to find one open so I can see the internals and how it is wired; so I opted for a total build from scratch.
I have cut some wood, to use as handle; got 2 long shaft linear potentiometer (10K), and got a little cable metal band (the ones with screw that you usually put on PVC lines to hold the pipe in place...you find plenty in your old car probably ), which will lock on the shaft and on the pipe. Everything is hooked up to a U shaped metal bracket, one for each lever. I will take a photo as soon as I put it together. I tried to look for an assembly with the lever and potentiometer in place, but there were none on the market (unless youg o on the industrial stores, the ones that sell parts for heavy machinery and industrial panels....the price were prohibitive ).

Since I am not versed in electronics, I thought that is easier to use the Xbox controller as basis, and solder the buttons on it; I will also disconnect the pots on it and replace 2 of them with the ones that I built; but then I realized that the software do not make use of the analog line for the throttle and brake; so I just sat and started to curse in all the languages that I know >_< Got stuck, started to search around and found this forum.

Hope that the situation is clearer; tried to explain to the best of my capabilities English is not my main language.

Thanks again!

[PL1]

MSTS is driven mainly by keyboard; so anything that can assign keystroke (like the I-pac PCB and similar), can be used to make a control for it; not sure if is possible to translate that in a potentiometer logic; otherwise is a matter of getting a rotary switch with so many positions as the ones that the throttle can have; and basically have a switch on a handle I guess.

Another possibility to consider is an optical encoder circuit like a mouse or trackball, but the encoder wheel (behind the smaller gear) would need to be driven by gears like this Road Blasters Steering yoke. (back view)



As long as the travel of the lever provides a few more transitions than the range of settings, it could be an easier way to translate lever movement to discrete up/down steps.

The KADE has a firmware that might be useful for this (with a slight modification) and I think Jon has been working on getting it to handle raw optical inputs.

For TS2014 the things are different, since it accept controls from keyboards but won't recognize other controllers...for some reason it will see only the Xbox 360 controller, making impossible the usual operation of assign controls on the joystick. It would not even see the Saitek when I tried; but I didn't use a profile; the Saitek software send commands as keystroke I guess, fooling whatever application to believe that it is done via keyboard. A clever approach, altho I didn't try it with many games.

So to answer your first question: MSTS does have the capability to map controls, while TS2014 do not see anything but the keyboard and the xbox controller, so it has to be fooled.

You may want to look at JoyToKey (Joy2Key?) or Xpadder to translate gamepad button presses into keystrokes.

There are many posts around here on the subject.

I have cut some wood, to use as handle; got 2 long shaft linear potentiometer (10K), and got a little cable metal band (the ones with screw that you usually put on PVC lines to hold the pipe in place...you find plenty in your old car probably ), which will lock on the shaft and on the pipe. Everything is hooked up to a U shaped metal bracket, one for each lever.

Sounds like two Lunar Lander Thrusters.   




Scott

[shinyknight]

Wow, that's interesting....never imagined to see that technique applied to a controller other than a mouse

The issue thou, is that you still need to assign it....if it is not seen as button press signal (which is done by the mapping software on the USB chip on the device, the one that does translation of the actions into HID codes), the program will simply ignore it. That's a great solution if I could assign the mouse to either axis of the train (acc or brake), but it accept only keyboard input sadly.

The KAde looks really interesting; the HW is not different from an Arduino (uses the same Atmel Mega chip), but the software seems able to map anything natively, independently from the application that runs below...maybe it could fool the simulator to believe that the analog input received by the pots is in fact a key press; with a specific repeat and delay rate....gotta check into this a bit more.

Giving a try now to joy2key And yes....I would love to put my hands on one of those thruster controls I was even looking at abandoned factories, to grab those handles from discarded electric panels

[PL1]

The issue thou, is that you still need to assign it....if it is not seen as button press signal (which is done by the mapping software on the USB chip on the device, the one that does translation of the actions into HID codes), the program will simply ignore it. That's a great solution if I could assign the mouse to either axis of the train (acc or brake), but it accept only keyboard input sadly.

Sorry, wasn't clear on this earlier.

I think Jon might be able to modify the KADE firmware so that it would output one keystroke per optical transition instead of moving the mouse cursor one pixel.

What say you, Jon?  Is it theoretically possible?

I would love to put my hands on one of those thruster controls I was even looking at abandoned factories, to grab those handles from discarded electric panels

Dezbaz fabbed that controller from scratch as documented in his outstanding Converting Asteroids to Lunar Lander thread on KLOV.   


Scott

[sharpfork]

modify the KADE firmware so that it would output one keystroke per optical transition instead of moving the mouse cursor one pixel

I bet $25 Degenatrons could do that in his sleep.

[degenatrons]

The issue thou, is that you still need to assign it....if it is not seen as button press signal (which is done by the mapping software on the USB chip on the device, the one that does translation of the actions into HID codes), the program will simply ignore it. That's a great solution if I could assign the mouse to either axis of the train (acc or brake), but it accept only keyboard input sadly.

Sorry, wasn't clear on this earlier.

I think Jon might be able to modify the KADE firmware so that it would output one keystroke per optical transition instead of moving the mouse cursor one pixel.

What say you, Jon?  Is it theoretically possible?

I would love to put my hands on one of those thruster controls I was even looking at abandoned factories, to grab those handles from discarded electric panels

Dezbaz fabbed that controller from scratch as documented in his outstanding Converting Asteroids to Lunar Lander thread on KLOV.   


Scott

Hey Scott,  sure it's possible.  I've done this already with analog signals for a composite version of KADE which we're calling KADE multiHID (supports simultaneous emulation of keyboard+mouse+joystick).
Looking at the optical encoding part now, to bring in native support for Trackballs and Spinners.   Could also read in PS/2 from legacy devices if that would be useful.
Will post more info when I make progress.

Jon

[PL1]

Thanks for the confirmation, Jon.

I'm guessing that for his application, he'd want gears, an encoder wheel and an Atari steering optic PCB, but I'm just spitballing on those parts.

Are you interested in this approach, Shinyknight?


Scott

[shinyknight]

Thanks for looking into this!

I am interested in making a controller; so if the solution is viable I could consider it

The concern is only on the parts; from what I understand, I need basically a new board and a optical assembly, plus the wheels?

Which means that I can't use either the pots that I have already, nor the xbox PCB that I am planning to use. But if I can have a better controller that works with both MSTS and TS2014 I may consider it

so far I just stuck the lever into the potentiometer and fixed it to the u shaped metal bracket; altho work just took any single bit of time, so I didn't even hoot it up to the controller yet, to see what happens O_o In the next few days I will hop back on the project; so I can collect more data to give you more info on what I notice.