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Author Topic: VP glass lock down plate with "english" simulation  (Read 1839 times)

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clok

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VP glass lock down plate with "english" simulation
« on: February 14, 2014, 11:56:18 am »
a few years ago (2-5?) when the Homemade Visual Pinball tables where starting to get some attention I remember a a company that was going to make  the Glass lock down (large silver plate on plunger end) with some sensors etc.. so when you shoved on it, it simulated "english" for the VP simulators. They had it on the webpage and a list price of $200 or something like that. I have been out of this area for so long and have plans to build a table.. I was jut wondering if this do dad ever made it? I see there are alot of new things to simulate stuff since I last looked so maybe its was rendered obsolete  and never came out?

PL1

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Re: VP glass lock down plate with "english" simulation
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2014, 12:40:52 pm »
Not sure about the company that you're referring to, but I remember someone on VPForums.org making a spring-centered one with microswitches.

One huge advance in nudging is analog nudging with the VirtuaPin Digital Plunger Kit v2.

From what I've read, it's much better than the Nanotech Mot-Ion kit and fixes some issues that some people encountered in the v1 kit.


Scott
« Last Edit: February 14, 2014, 12:53:31 pm by PL1 »

MTPPC

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Re: VP glass lock down plate with "english" simulation
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2014, 03:30:31 pm »
I like the microsoft freestyle sidewinder pro solution. It is very natural and works great. I originally used buttons but found them too easy.
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Xiaou2

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Re: VP glass lock down plate with "english" simulation
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2014, 07:10:33 pm »
 I just watched a video clip of the Virtuapin plunger... where the guy states is can recreate plunger bumping...  Upon doing a bump, there was like a 1.5 to 2 second delay before the ball took off.

 That kind of delay is totally unacceptable in Pinball,  where things happen, and need to happen, in split seconds.

 I do not know if the  "table tilt / level sensor"  is any better than in response, but I suspect not.

 I think you may in fact be better off using an analog pot hack.

 And even with all of this considered.. I do not think that the table sensors even react properly anyways.
This could be both to do with the way the software works.. as well as the hardware.

 I believe there is a real misunderstanding of the physics of bumping and sliding, as well as tilt mechanics, in Pinball / Virtual Pinball.

 For one thing... nobody actually Tilts a machine at an angle while playing.  The tilt bob will register that.. however, the bob on modern machines is more to do with bumping & even sliding.  Too much movement, will cause it to swing... and if that movement continues at length.. that swing will cause the bob to hit the sensor edge.  In most cases, ts more of an accumulative thing, rather than an instant thing.

 Bumping / Tapping  - Is what is done most to control the ball in a game.  NOTHING to do with table tilt / level !!!    In fact, if that heavy steel ball is headed right down the center of the field, a good hard tap wont even do anything to move that ball.. to change its vector.

 Its like the magic trick, where you pull the tablecloth fast enough.. and the dishes are still in place.  Except a tablecloth has a lot more friction, and angle deformity.. which makes it difficult.  However, a pinball is very weighty.. and that mass in amplified by its spin and moving vector.   Its also over a slippery smooth surface...  so trying to slide the table left or right a little.. just wont effect the ball much if at all.

 The only kinds of slides that do work... are Extreme ones.  Such as where the person moves the machine like 3 inches or more... in a very rapid and violent moment.   The problem with this, is that it will typically set off the tilt sensor, if its calibrated properly.

 When does bumping work and why???

 Bumping really only works, when the ball is touching Something that Fixed to the table.  For example..  if your ball is balanced on a vertical post... and you tap the table in a vector towards the backglass.. it will cause the post to transmit that energy into the ball... so the ball will then be bumped in that same vector.

 Similarly, if the ball is touching a rail, post, or slingslot rubber... it can also be bumped in a horizontal vector.  This is useful, for example, if you do not want the ball to end up in a certain spot.. a spot or vector, where the ball is more likely to drain or do something erratic and uncontrollable.  And or to better direct the ball to set up better shots.   Other uses are when the ball is on the post about to enter the side drain.. you can bump it horizontally.. causing it to bounce out of the lane before it fully enters it.

 But remember... this all has nothing to do with table level... which some seemingly mistake as Tilt.  Its to do with a tables position in 3d space, sliding in any x / y vector  (not z)  +  the balls contact with something on that table.   

 Also, its to do with vibrational energy.  Meaning.. for example, the difference between a Grenade -vs- forceful set of firehoses.   A grenades force is instant, and powerful.  It will vaporize, destroy, & tear  flesh targets instantly, rather than move them great distances.  The firehoses, while powerful..  is more diluted.  Move accumulative in nature..  and while enough of them focused on a target could tear things apart.. a human would mostly just be pushed around.

 With tapping / bumping.. the energy is more focused.  Sharp.  Quick.   It means that the sensors have to be very accurate and the data processing much be equally quick.  Even a quarter second delay, and or losses of represented forces... by as little as 20%, would create a very poor response... and a virtual experience that would never work properly.

 You certainly dont want to have to compensate for delay, by bumping 1/2 sec early in a game.  Pinball is too fast and erratic for that kind of play.

 As such, I imagine you would need military / Nasa  level technology, for the correct precision.. as well as high bandwidth communication..  maybe fiber-op with dedicated controller card.

 And probably some very custom programming.. to allow high bandwidth sensor packet transmission data exchanges... and high level math / physics calculations.   Such as use of a separate cpu core(s), video card processor chip..etc.

 And even with all of that.. you wont Feel the ball rolling on the table, the difference between a rubber bumper, or a rail.  A plastic ramp, a spinner, a magnet save multivector force effect, pop bumper, and sling shot - vs - upkicker.  Each element has different mechanical feel, that transmits into your hands.. via vibration of the playfield and cabinet.

 Pinball is very Tactile.  And without that Tactile feel.. it makes it nearly impossible to feel like your playing a real machine, as well as causing issues with players timing and level of control.  Much like a cats whiskers, or bugs feelers.

 For a fun experiment ... play a game of Pinball with like three pairs of gloves on.  Such as:  A pair of thick rubber dishwashing gloves,  then a mildly bulky winter glove set, all tucked inside a oven mitt.   See how different your games feel and react in comparison to bare hands.   Then with bare hands, close your eyes... and have a friend tell you when to flip, by gently tapping your arms or shoulders.  Without visuals to distract.. concentrate on what you actually FEEL happening.   Then to extend that.. use some industrial ear protectors, or noise canceling headphones.  Repeat this + blind tests.


 



Slippyblade

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Re: VP glass lock down plate with "english" simulation
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2014, 07:29:23 pm »
Yep.  And since we can't get it absolutely freaking perfect in every possible way, why bother doing anything at all.  Right?  Cause that's what you are saying.  And you've said it over and over again.  We get it.  You can't stand virtual pinball cause you are some sorta nudge-god.

Malenko

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Re: VP glass lock down plate with "english" simulation
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2014, 08:29:11 pm »
Yep.  And since we can't get it absolutely freaking perfect in every possible way, why bother doing anything at all.  Right?  Cause that's what you are saying.  And you've said it over and over again.  We get it.  You can't stand virtual pinball cause you are some sorta nudge-god.

He nudges with his toes. True story.
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MTPPC

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Re: VP glass lock down plate with "english" simulation
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2014, 09:45:43 pm »
blah blah blah
Have you played a VP simulator with a MS sidewinder freestyle pro providing the nudge input? It is very immediate and works quite nicely.

The one thing I wonder is why you feel it necessary to provide WOT replies on a topic that you are mostly unopen to accepting its value. IOW, why do you care so much about how bad it is if it will never be good enough for you? It almost seems as if you are arguing with yourself on building a simulator.
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yotsuya

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Re: VP glass lock down plate with "english" simulation
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2014, 10:07:09 pm »
Yep.  And since we can't get it absolutely freaking perfect in every possible way, why bother doing anything at all.  Right?  Cause that's what you are saying.  And you've said it over and over again.  We get it.  You can't stand virtual pinball cause you are some sorta nudge-god.

Rep for you, Slippy.
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yotsuya

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Re: VP glass lock down plate with "english" simulation
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2014, 10:11:05 pm »
Quote
 For a fun experiment ... play a game of Pinball with like three pairs of gloves on. 

We got different ideas of what is fun, bro. :cheers:
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

Xiaou2

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Re: VP glass lock down plate with "english" simulation
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2014, 12:37:13 pm »
Yep.  And since we can't get it absolutely freaking perfect in every possible way, why bother doing anything at all.  Right?  Cause that's what you are saying.  And you've said it over and over again.  We get it.  You can't stand virtual pinball cause you are some sorta nudge-god.

 This has nothing to do with perfection.  Its just the basics.

Quote
IOW, why do you care so much about how bad it is if it will never be good enough for you?

 Ive said this before...  That Ive played the Sims on pc, and they are somewhat enjoyable... In their very limited ways..
Any improvement, is a good thing.

 However, I also said, that Id NEVER blow a ton of cash on a dedicated virtual machine.  As why would I spend +$1500... when I could easily pick up a Real machine that would play 1000x better, and was 1000x more challenging and fun.. for the same amount of money???


 

Malenko

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Re: VP glass lock down plate with "english" simulation
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2014, 12:48:10 pm »
However, I also said, that Id NEVER blow a ton of cash on a dedicated virtual machine.  As why would I spend +$1500... when I could easily pick up a Real machine that would play 1000x better, and was 1000x more challenging and fun.. for the same amount of money???

The disconnect here is while you don't agree that the value of the virtual pinball table justifies the cost; others do.
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clok

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Re: VP glass lock down plate with "english" simulation
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2014, 01:27:59 pm »
This was built into the glass lockdown.. it was a small limitation, most of us have our palms resting on it.. but some players do not. it was all micro switchs.. with springs i believe.. you pushed hard, spring gave enough the switch was activated.. fairly simple, it came with a plunger also. Again, this was about 2-5 years ago (sorry so vague) I just know it was right when people where starting to do VP table at home with LCD's (2 years seems more correct). I suspect it never came out. I'm sure it was here I read about it way back. they had a product page some specs and "coming soon".  it appears there are other options now. Only asked as it was nostalgia, not wanting it, wondering if it came out and worked..  As I am kinda going whole hog on my mini home arcade I was leaning towards making a VP table.. Would love the real thing ( and have owned a few which i sold, REGRET!) but I don't have room.. simple as that.. one machine that can play a few good enough to have fun, or one that you can master.. and get bored of.. I know I got bored of mine after awhile. again thanks for input.

  
 

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