Daisy Chaining Wiring Question

[PacManess]

Hiya,
I am new to this site and to this whole building my own Arcade controls thing, but I'm going to give it a go.
I purchased an IPAC (The 4 player version) on EBay, and I'm going to be first building the control panel for my MAME unit.
I plan on somehow having 3 or 4 sticks (2 8-ways and 2 4-ways...maybe just 1 4-way)...and that leads me to my question (finally!).
I have read that the best way to connect things like this is to daisy-chain them together. So I'm wondering: What is the best way to do this? As far as I can see, there are a few choices:
1. I daisy-chain them where the wires come together...for example, if I have 3 sticks, I run a wire from stick A all the way to the board. Then, I run a wire from stick B and splice it into the main wire from stick A. So on and so forth and blahdey blah...
2. I connect the ends of all the wires straight into the IPAC. So I'd run the up direction wires from all the sticks right into the IPAC.

See, I've never done much wire work and stuff before tackling this, so any help would be GREATLY appreciated. If I go with idea 1, do I just strip out a small place on the wires and twist the incoming wires directly to it? Or do I solder it? Do I even need to solder at all to the IPAC board? Oy, so many questions.

Once again, thanks for any help.

nsb

[PacManess]

I just thought about something that may be a better solution for me...
Does anyone know if the Omni Stick Prodigy is any good? That's the one that flips between 4 way to 8 way with the literal "flick of a switch". Also, Ultimarc is making a stick that can do the same thing, except instead of flipping a switch, you pull the stick and rotate it twice or something. I don't know, that sounds scary. Although I KNOW from reading that Ultimarc makes quality parts. Does anyone know anything about any of this? Or about my daisy chaining question? Thanks again.

nsb

[Tiger-Heli]

Good questions.

Regarding daisy-chaining.  You only daisy chain grounds and sticks that will have the same function.  (For example, a 4-way and an 8-way could be daisy-chained to the same inputs, but not two 8-ways, or Player 2's stick would be controlling Character 1).

See http://www.dameon.net/BBBB/mynotes.html#cherrysw
For more info.  For grounds, the easiest thing is to insert a bare wire into the I-PAC gnd terminal, run it to the closest switch, cut it and crimp a Quick Disconnect on that wire and another length of wire (two wires in same disconnect), run the free length to the next nearest switch, and repeat.

See, I've never done much wire work and stuff before tackling this, so any help would be GREATLY appreciated. If I go with idea 1, do I just strip out a small place on the wires and twist the incoming wires directly to it? Or do I solder it? Do I even need to solder at all to the IPAC board? Oy, so many questions.

No soldering to the I-PAC board, put bare wires into the screw terminals and tighten them down.  Soldering is better than twisting, but not really required.  Best is to do the connections at the Quick Disconnects as mentioned above.

Does anyone know if the Omni Stick Prodigy is any good?

From what I've heard, it's excellent.  It has a very short throw, which is better for Pac-Man and most arcade games, but will feel different at first if you are used to Happ sticks.

Also, Ultimarc is making a stick that can do the same thing, except instead of flipping a switch, you pull the stick and rotate it twice or something. I don't know, that sounds scary.

Sounds scary to me as well.  And currently out-of-stock (since it was introduced) AFAICT.  Kev Steele (www.retroblast.com) is doing a review of these sticks and many others, depending on your timetable and how impatient you are.

[MinerAl]

Daisy chaining:  The way to save yourself some wire is to go from I-PAC to stick to stick.  It is less crowded at the I-PAC too.  Wire up the closest joystick normally, then wire each switch on the second joystick from the corresponding switch on the first one (you can daisy the grounds normally).

4/8 switching joysticks:  The old switch-from-the-bottom T-Stick is great.  I have no experience with the Omni or the pull-up-and-twist T-Stick.

[soslo]

t-taps are your friend - they make daisy-chaining a dream:

[PacManess]

Thanks for all of your help everybody. I'm leaning towards the Switching Joysticks I think...and I also think I am going to do my best to keep my Control Panel soldering free. Of course, best laid plans and all that.
I do have one question though...how do those Wire Tap Clips work? I mean, you know...how do you use them?
Thanks again for your help everybody!

nsb

[soslo]

the above taps (I call them t-taps, but technically they are pass-through or something like that) have holes for 2 wires to go in parallel to each other. One wire will pass straight through, and the other is a one sided hole that only allows the end of the wire to go in. This is for the wire that is "piggybacking" to the main wire which is passing through.

Put both wires in their grooves, and use a pair of pliers to clamp down on the metal clip in the middle of the tap. It sounds confusing, but when you have one in your hand, it is very straightfoward.

These taps are my favorite item when it comes to wiring. sometimes I am feeling lazy and I use them as butt connectors too.

[Tiger-Heli]

the above taps (I call them t-taps, but technically they are pass-through or something like that) have holes for 2 wires to go in parallel to each other. One wire will pass straight through, and the other is a one sided hole that only allows the end of the wire to go in. This is for the wire that is "piggybacking" to the main wire which is passing through.

Put both wires in their grooves, and use a pair of pliers to clamp down on the metal clip in the middle of the tap. It sounds confusing, but when you have one in your hand, it is very straightfoward.

These taps are my favorite item when it comes to wiring. sometimes I am feeling lazy and I use them as butt connectors too.

I've used T-Taps before (for automotive applications, and the auto parts place is probably the best place to buy them).

They're simple to use, but I don't recommend them, for the following reasons:

You have to be careful about the wire size you are using with them.  Too thick and they won't break through the insulation, Too thin and the "loose" (non-through) wire can slip out.

Another drawback is if you ever have to remove them, you now have a gap in the wire's insulation.  (Which electrical tape will repair.)

On top of this, while they are quick to install, the method above has no additional work (You have to crimp a terminal end on the wires anyway, you're just crimping the terminal over two wires instead of one.)

Don't mistake me, they work, but they are not a solution I would personally recommend.

[soslo]

You have to be careful about the wire size you are using with them.  Too thick and they won't break through the insulation, Too thin and the "loose" (non-through) wire can slip out.

To be fair, you have to check the size of most electrical connectors...

Another drawback is if you ever have to remove them, you now have a gap in the wire's insulation.  (Which electrical tape will repair.)

No biggie

On top of this, while they are quick to install, the method above has no additional work (You have to crimp a terminal end on the wires anyway, you're just crimping the terminal over two wires instead of one.)

Well, stripping/crimping the extra wire is probably extra work since the tap only requires one crimp instead of two strips, and two crimps.

Don't mistake me, they work, but they are not a solution I would personally recommend.

I agree with this for things that you will be taking apart, but if you are putting wires together for the long haul, then a tap will provide a safer connection since connectors have a tendancy to pull off of the wire if yanked on. I've never had a tap seperate on me.

It's all a matter of preference. The taps are much more expensive that other connectors (about 25 cents a piece), so cost may be an issue.

At any rate - I'm not trying to start a wiring war - just chime in once again about the taps.

Here is a diagram of how the taps would work on the ground wire with an IPAC.

[Tiger-Heli]

You have to be careful about the wire size you are using with them.  Too thick and they won't break through the insulation, Too thin and the "loose" (non-through) wire can slip out.

To be fair, you have to check the size of most electrical connectors...

Yes, but it's more critical with these.  Example - I am using 22 gauge wire with the T-Taps.  If the wire has very thick insulation, the T-Tap might not pierce it, so I need to split the insulation before placing the tap over the wire.  And if I do this on the "free-end" wire, there is a chance the wire might pull through.  OTOH, I am using 18-22 gauge crimp connects.  The insulation is stripped from the wire, so no chance of it causing problems.  If the wire is too thin, I can double or triple it over and then crimp it.  If the wire is too thick, I could leave a few strands out of the connector (or cut them from it) but this is not recommended.

Well, stripping/crimping the extra wire is probably extra work since the tap only requires one crimp instead of two strips, and two crimps.

I'm not going to get into an argument about time to strip one extra wire.  Crimp time would be the same.  My point was that you have to crimp a terminal end on the button wire anyway.  My method means you just crimp this on two wires instead of one.  Also, the fewer wire breaks/crimps/conections in a circuit, the less potential problems, places to troubleshoot, etc.

At any rate - I'm not trying to start a wiring war - just chime in once again about the taps.

Me either, if someone wants to use them, go ahead.  I just don't think they're the "Be all and end all."

[PacManess]

Wow, thanks for all of the information guys! I think this is the route I'm going to go with my CP (of course, nothing is written in stone, OR Lexan...)

1. I think I'm going to use the switchable 4/8 Way sticks at GroovyGameGear.com (the Omni-Stik). They are a little more costly than other sticks, but after doing some research I haven't found anything bad about them. Also, if they DO decide to go with the classic "Pac" look for the next run of these sticks, that would be doubley great. So, instead of having to daisy-chain 1 4-way stick to an 8-way doohickey, I'll be able to have 1 player 1 stick and 1 player 2 stick. It SOUNDS like a great idea.

2. I think I am going to try to Daisy Chain with the Crimp Quick Disconnects. I'm really actually happy that it doesn't look like ANY soldering will be needed for my Control Panel. This is a good thing. I have the manual dexterity of a 600 pound Canadian Pro Wrestler, so any small finese type work that I can avoid will be helpful.
So, if I understand the Daisy Chaining method correctly...I will run a free wire from one of the Ground ports on the IPAC. I will run this to the first button/joystick ground switch, and I will crimp it into a Quick Disco plug. I will also crimp in a second wire. This second wire will run to the NEXT switch, and I will then repeat the process. Does that sound about right to you all? Good lord, the last thing I need to is to not ground things correctly and have my entire house go up in flames...all because I wanted to play a little Donkey Kong (but, you know, the risk is SO worth it!).

3. Um, this isn't really related to Daisy Chaining, but I thought I would design the layout by doing this: first, buying all the parts I need (2 Joysticks, buttons for Player 1 start and Player 2 start, Coin button, Screenshot button, Escape button, and six player buttons for each player. I know that's a buttload of buttons, but with only 2 sticks on the board, I want to make sure I have enough buttons to go around). Then, I will get some cardboard or some poster board or something. I will think of a good shape, then sit the board down with all the crudola on top of it. I can play with some layouts, then, once I have what I want, I've got a spiffy template. At least, that's how I WANT it to go.

4. As far as decorating the CP goes, I was thinking of painting the bad boy first, then using a combination of 80's stickers and all that new trendy 80's crap from like your local Hot Topic to decorate the CP. Of course, if I were to go THAT route, I might almost be better served to make a happy control panel layout graphic in Photoshop, then take it to Kinko's and have them give it print love. THEN, I could laminate or something over top of it to give it that nice protected look. Oy vey, so much to consider.

Thanks for reading my ramblings and answering all of my questions. Good times. As far as hobby boards go, this is the most helpful group of people I've ever seen. Good times once again. It is making this task a little less...well...daunting I suppose.

[Tiger-Heli]

>1. I think I'm going to use the switchable 4/8 Way >sticks at GroovyGameGear.com (the Omni-Stik). It >SOUNDS like a great idea.

Agreed

>2. I think I am going to try to Daisy Chain with the Crimp Quick Disconnects. . . Does that sound about right to you all?

Sounds right.

> Good lord, the last thing I need to is to not ground >things correctly and have my entire house go up in >flames...all because I wanted to play a little Donkey >Kong (but, you know, the risk is SO worth it!).

That was almost exactly one of the members tag lines on here :-)

>3. I know that's a buttload of buttons, but with only 2 sticks on the board, I want to make sure I have enough buttons to go around).

Actually, that's above right, maybe a tad below the average.  Be sure to mock it up in cardboard and be sure the feel is what you want before you get to cutting wood.

Can't help you with the decorating stuff, but post back if you have more questions and let us know how it goes.

[grafixmonkey]

Just a note, I've used the "T-taps" before too, and they are awesome.  And, despite my best efforts to carefully lay out my ground loop (and I'm an electrical circuits nutter,) I still made mistakes doing the two-wires-in-one-disconnect method and had to strip off little sections of insulation in the middle of the wire and solder extra pieces of ground loop to the stripped section because I didn't have any t-taps.  It was also kind of difficult to get the ends of two wires to go into the quick disconnects for crimping.  They always wanted to come untwisted at just the wrong moment, and sometimes both wires together were too big for the disconnect while one fit fine (I had two gauges of wire to work with), and sometimes I had a situation with as many as four wires coming together to splice in the same place, so I had to get a second kind of crimp-on connector that was made for this situation.  (bought a box of 100, used two.)

I also don't think you'd really have trouble with the t-taps not piercing your insulation, as long as you have the same gauge of wires as t-taps.  The thickness of the insulation on the wire has nothing to do with what gauge it is, and a certain gauge wire guarantees that the metal part is at least a certain diameter, and the t-taps I've seen would not be able to clamp fully down on a wire and not hit the contacts unless the gauge of the wire was too small for the tap.  The tap has a knife with a slot in the middle that is smaller than the width of the metal part of the wire, and the knife/slot goes all the way through it doesn't just poke in a little bit, so the wire ends up going completely through that slot.  I think what most likely happened to Tiger-Heli is he thought his wire was a certain gauge because of the thickness of the whole wire, but the thick insulation (auto wire prolly has thicker insulation on it than other wire) made him think he had 16 gauge when he really had 18 or 20.

[slycrel]

In reply to #3...

  I'm planning on doing this also.  Just waiting for the buttons to arrive then I can start.  I think that this is a good way to go so that you can get a reasonable feel of what you like and not waste a ton of wood doing it multiple times.  =)  Good luck, let us know how it goes.

[eightbit]

 Personally I don't like the taps, never had good luck with them. They also cost significantly more than the crimp on ends.

If you don't have a crimper, get one. Its worth the $10 to get a good crimp on your connections.

[PacManess]

Eightbit,
Where can I get a crimper? I was just sitting here thinking of where I could get one, and you said that. Weird huh? Weeeiiiiiiiiird.
Seriously though, I was going to spend the 10 bucks on a Solder Gun ANYWAY, so 10 bucks for a crimper instead would be gravy. Indeed, gravy.

Is this something my local Wal-Mart would have, or would I need to go to a really for real hardware store?

Thanks for any info on this, that and the other.

[tmasman]

Eightbit,
Where can I get a crimper?...
Is this something my local Wal-Mart would have, or would I need to go to a really for real hardware store?

Walmart should have it in the tools section.
Peale was offering them for a little while too, you might PM him & see if he's still got one.

[eightbit]

Eightbit,
Where can I get a crimper? I was just sitting here thinking of where I could get one, and you said that. Weird huh? Weeeiiiiiiiiird.

Most places should have them. Home depot, Walmart, auto parts stores. If they have a better one for a couple dollars more, buy it. You probably don't need a $60 one, though they are nice and worth it if you were doing a lot of crimping.