Old games play better with old switches and buttons...

[chopperthedog]

Back in the day I was never consciously aware of the difference between a leaf (that came stock with a cab) or a micro-switch (that an operator installed later on). Over the last 6 months I've struggled to find a good specimen of a cab in the wild that may still have had leaf buttons. Through an ad on klov I scored a bag of some old leaf switches and various colored buttons for 15 bucks shipped.



My first experiment was adding a leaf to my DK cab that recently got the arcadeSD board and a sanyo ezv20 back in it. After a couple games a galaga and tweaking of the leaf that it became clear. I finally get it.... I finally get what the "flutter" of the button is.



Ever since getting my other horizontal cab up and running I found that I really didn't power on the computer anymore in my jrok defender cabaret and have been de-mame'ing it. In the process of removing the ipac and adding 2 9pin molex connectors inline with the jamma harness to the control panel, I also decided to add leafs and old buttons.



Compared to the standard button profile the older buttons clearly have a higher plunger and when the leaf switches are tuned just right things really start to not click .

But this got me thinkin', over the last 14 months of paying attention to this site and other peoples builds I haven't seen anyone go old school with leaf buttons. I've even scrolled through numerous pages of the control panel database thread and did not see one leaf switch. All the folk with the fancy military spec wiring and pretty 3 color led's loaded with micro-switches have no idea what you're missing. The ultimarc goldleafs that were in my panel before can't even come close to the awesomeness of the old leaf switches and buttons.


good day.

[yotsuya]

I've used Rollie Leaf Switches as well as RandyT's Leafs and have been happy with the feel from both.

But I know what you mean. Real leafs are the best, especially with the twitch-shooting type games..

[ark_ader]

If anyone can find NOS leaf switches that doesn't break the bank, please let me know.

[tron84]

I try to use leaf switches when I can. There is nothing like them, like yotsuya said the old ones are the best for the twitch shooters. They are just fast & smooth.
But I used some for my pac man rehab of the joystick. I tried the rehab the original leafs but they were so shot. But it is just a mobile og pac man joystick/ 4way games controller I made. I just love leaf switches.

[404]

Same thing when i got my ms pac cabaret. I started just banging on the player buttons and started to realize, without even playing a game, this was really how those old games were intended to feel.  It's really night and day.

solid deal on the buttons bundle too.

[Generic Eric]

Are you sure this isn't some sort of placebo effect?

Is it the feeling/sound of the click?  Or do they have a faster response time?

[yotsuya]

Are you sure this isn't some sort of placebo effect?

Is it the feeling/sound of the click?  Or do they have a faster response time?

*** Cue Xioux (and the Banshees)2 chiming in on button fatigue***

There is a noticeable difference, mainly because you don't have to wait for a "reset" of the button to activate it again.

[Generic Eric]

 

Are you sure this isn't some sort of placebo effect?

Is it the feeling/sound of the click?  Or do they have a faster response time?

*** Cue Xioux (and the Banshees)2 chiming in on button fatigue***

There is a noticeable difference, mainly because you don't have to wait for a "reset" of the button to activate it again.

 

I just want to know more.  Especially if I have to go questing for the switchs like I did for the Star Wars Yoke.

[RandyT]

Are you sure this isn't some sort of placebo effect?

Is it the feeling/sound of the click?  Or do they have a faster response time?

No, it's not a placebo effect.  There are very real, physical differences in the way the two types of switches function.  Microswitches have a "bump" in the travel  of the switch, due to the way they are designed.  Resistance increases as the "bump" is approached, at which time the internal arm slams the contacts together under spring tension.  When this happens, the resistance disappears instantly. Then, when you wish to activate the microswitch again, it must be allowed to return to the "pre-bump" section of the travel, thereby resetting this mechanism.  This is usually referred to as the "reset distance".  While these effects are not serious with a very low-actuation force microswitch, like the ones we offer as standard with our buttons, they are quite noticeable on higher force microswitches.

Leaf switches have neither the bump, nor the reset distance requirement, and the resistance is much more uniform throughout the travel of the button plunger.  The reduction in noise is primarily a side benefit.

[chopperthedog]

solid deal on the buttons bundle too.

I troll the buy/sell forum on klov via tapatalk almost every half hour daily.



I even scored this populated defender panel for 45 bucks shipped 5min after it was posted. Did it all from the phone and had him paid in 2 minutes while at a gig waiting for the opener to finish. But being able to analyze the panel is what got me interested in seeing what the old buttons are all about. Obviously the panel above has not been harmed and remains intact. The me of 6 years ago would have thought these buttons need to go and also sawed the edges off.... 

Are you sure this isn't some sort of placebo effect?

Absolutely not, Randy nailed it above. Yes there are options to add a leaf switch to a happ style button, but the higher plunger profile on the old buttons also adds to the experience. I've learned that if you're bottoming out an old leaf button, you're doing it wrong and wasting energy. And yotsuya nailed it with the word "twitch". You kinda rest your finger on the button and find that sweet spot with little twitches. I feel like I'm getting 4 shots off now in the time I would have only fired off 2 having to bottom out the button and reacting to the reset length.


good day.

[RandyT]

I've learned that if you're bottoming out an old leaf button, you're doing it wrong and wasting energy.

Not only that, but at that point, the switches are taking a real beating due to being over flexed.  This, IMHO, was one of the shortcomings of the original button design, and the reason leaf switches got such a bad rap for always requiring adjustment and replacement.  While the long throw might be desirable to some, it's very hard on the switches, and was something which I corrected when designing the CLASSX buttons.  The throw isn't as long, but the switches will go a lot longer between maintenance requirements.

[pbj]

Personally, I like the click.  I don't think I've ever had a cherry switch go bad.  You hear that click and know for sure something was supposed to have happened.  If the clicking is so loud it annoys you then the game is too quiet.

Leaf switches have been nothing but trouble.  The industry resolved this issue 25 years ago.

 

[RandyT]

Leaf switches have been nothing but trouble.  The industry resolved this issue 25 years ago.

See my last post.  It wasn't the switches as much as it was the implementation.  The industry resolved it, but it was unfortunately at the expense of performance.

[yotsuya]

That's why I love using my Pac-Pro. I can definitely tell the difference in moving in games without having to wait for a click.

[Xiaou2]

Good Post Chopperthedog.


 Yes, its not just the fact that Micros have that extra force needed to overcome at each press...  but the actual bottoming out, that really effects the Feel & performance.

 A Leafswitch is like lightly bouncing on a Trampoline..  or a diving board.

 A Microswitch, is like using a hammer to drive nails into a board.


 Which one feels better?  Which one will get your limbs tired quicker?


 So long as you know that you do not have to bottom out a leaf,  (its actually made to be difficult to do so..)  then you will experience the gentle & fun floating trampoline effect.   Energy put in, is returned fairly equally. Its liquid smooth... and with a light flutter.. its lighting fast, with almost zero effort or fatigue.

  The other thing to note, is that while the leaf can be activated within a hairs worth of movement...  its not like a mouse-trap, or loaded gun.  Meaning.. you can actually rest your fingers on the buttons with confidence and comfort.. and they will not accidentally activate.    You actually have to press them past a certain depth,  which initially requires a bit of force.. but once in that depth... it takes very little force to remain in that depth.

 Unfortunately, some newly designed Leafs are way too light to depress...  so you can not actually rest your fingers on the buttons, with any weight at all.   It causes you to spend more energy trying to maintain a feather-light hover position.. which strains the muscles, and again, causes quicker fatigue.


 The best way to solve the Leafs over-bend  syndrome, is to either make a dual support leaf..., 

or

 under the leaf, add an additional round spring  or  absorbing foam , near the leafs max travel position. 


 ---

 All that being said..   This also depends on what kind of games you want to play.

 If your playing a fighting game... its more critical to have positive confirmation, without any accidental diagonals.  As such, Micros are the better choice for this application.  The extra spring tension helps keep you from accidental presses.. helps confirm a press from the smash,  and the short throw creates a fast reset that you more precisely feel.  Gushy springboard play would hamper fighter combinations a bit too much...


 But for a game like Galaga.. where its nonstop firing.. you would be a fool not to have a Leaf.   The difference is night to day...  Lamborghini to School Bus...

 And a game like Robotron?   A leaf stick is the only way you can really play that game properly, period.
It gives the fastest response times,  which is a crucial factor in surviving into the games deeper levels.


---

 The hybrids may work better than traditional Micros for fighters, as they are modeled more after the micro style sticks and buttons.      This would give you benefits on the fighter style games.. but they just dont do the other styles of games well at all.   The very games that were designed for Leafs... and the very reason people would Want leafs for their cabs and arcade restorations / clones.

[PL1]

Has anyone tried pinball flipper leafs like these from VirtuaPin?




Scott

[RandyT]

  The other thing to note, is that while the leaf can be activated within a hairs worth of movement...  its not like a mouse-trap, or loaded gun.  Meaning.. you can actually rest your fingers on the buttons with confidence and comfort.. and they will not accidentally activate.    You actually have to press them past a certain depth,  which initially requires a bit of force.. but once in that depth... it takes very little force to remain in that depth.

 Unfortunately, some newly designed Leafs are way too light to depress...  so you can not actually rest your fingers on the buttons, with any weight at all.   It causes you to spend more energy trying to maintain a feather-light hover position.. which strains the muscles, and again, causes quicker fatigue.

Steve, I really don't know what you base your conclusions upon, but I have an original Defender panel sitting next to me, and you absolutely cannot "rest your fingers on the buttons" without them activating.  In fact, the force one can place upon them before the switch closes is less than that of the CLASSX buttons with leaf switches (although they can be made as light if desired).  If anything, there is more stress when using those original buttons, as the plunger sits higher, causing one to need to hold their hand in a more stressful position to avoid activating them.  Perhaps this is not the case with whatever panels or buttons you based your conclusion upon, but it certainly doesn't fall in line with your blanket statement.  Which leads me to another point about the old design;  Those button bodies are of a fixed length, and the switches are not attached in a permanent relative position to them, rather separate parts.  This leads to requiring spacers for the switches or cut-outs in the underside of the panel, in order to get the desired relative distance between the plunger and the switch, depending upon actual panel thickness.  This, in turn, led to operators and manufacturers all having very different ideas as to what that distance should be, with the worst culprits usually being the operators who were only concerned with getting the machine working again.  When they got it wrong, that's where the problems came in....it also led to buttons of the same style having a different feel on different machines.

I'm not sure why, but you seem to make the assumption that these kinds of things are never studied, nor understood, by those investing $15k and over a year of time into giving these kinds of switches a better chance than they were given before.  But I can assure you that it was not done in a vacuum of information and research.  While I can't speak for whatever other "newly designed Leafs" to which you may have been referring, the CLASSX button with True-Leaf switches can be adjusted for any "feel" you like, obviously other than the long throw past actuation, which would result in the same type of damage inherent to the old designs.  The upper leaf can be adjusted to provide more resistance, and the lower leaf can be adjusted for the desired amount of throw before the contacts close.  And if that doesn't provide enough resistance to suit your taste, stretching the plunger spring a bit will add more.   Like the old adage goes; If it hurts, you're not doing it right.