Atari Yolk 14 tooth gear Repoductions

[SammyWI]

RandyT: Out of curiosity have you done any 3d printing with some of the newer materials like nylon or PET?  I have pretty much moved on from ABS to these two materials.  PET in particular has some nice properties including very low shrinkage which is great for parts that want to warp.

[RandyT]

No, I haven't.  But I probably will at some point.  Nylon can be a little problematic, due to the fact that it absorbs moisture so readily, which can cause "popping" at the nozzle.  And then the much higher extrude temperatures.  I will probably give PET a go before nylon, but the crystalline nature of the material makes me wonder whether it would be too brittle.  I was able to take a large chunk of the ABS gear I had to cut from the hub, and flatten it without it breaking.  Not sure if PET would be able to do the same thing.  What have your experiences with this material been like for durability?

[SammyWI]

The PET I use is T-Glase from Taulman.  I've found it to be stronger than ABS with better layer bonding.  Brittleness is harder to say because ABS will come apart at the layers long before PET will.  For pure raw material ABS is probably less brittle than PET but once printed PET has been stronger and more durable than ABS for me.  PET is pretty much my go to material now and I wish I had it when I first started 3d printing. 

Nylon can be hard to work with.  I have dried mine out in the oven and later I bought a cheap food dehydrator - then store in a bag with desiccant (crystal cat litter).  I use an all metal hotend now that can hit the higher nylon temps safely.  Getting nylon to stick to the bed is lots of fun too.  I use Garolite CE and it sticks too well sometimes!  But a benefit is that nylon on Garolite doesn't require a heated bed.  Nylon's flexibility can be good or bad.  I find it mostly bad because I usually want rigid parts.

[34k]

I have 25-30 games so far this weekend and the gear is performing flawlessly so far.
While I had the yoke apart I performed a full service on it.

• brand new 5k pots for horizontal and vertical
• a full clean on all gears
• Nyogel applied to all meshing and moving parts
• new switches for triggers and thumb buttons

So this thing is pretty close to as good as it gets.

Play with the new gear is as smooth as butter. Tracking and accuracy feels spot on and tight.
I will pull the version C with the gear on the original hub and see if there are any signs of stress. Next I will put in the fully printed version B and see how that one does and report back when I have some more play time in.

[Slippyblade]

Play with the new gear is as smooth as butter. Tracking and accuracy feels spot on and tight.
I will pull the version C with the gear on the original hub and see if there are any signs of stress. Next I will put in the fully printed version B and see how that one does and report back when I have some more play time in.

I love watching the development of this stuff.  I honestly see the wide adoption of 3D printing as a society changer.  Sure cost is prohibitive right now, but look at where photo quality printing was 30 yrs ago compared to today.  Heck, with some printers anymore is cheaper to toss the whole thing and buy a new model than to replace the cartridges.  Can you imagine...  I need a part - I go online and download a printfile and fire up the 'ole 3D printer and poof, new part.

[TheShanMan]

I'm tempted to get the version that allows you to use the original metal insert since that would be closer to original, but I'm curious what, if anything, distinguishes the other version from the ones being sold on ebay and klov?

Do these need to be blue BTW? White would be more original.

Randy, I'd love to hear your thoughts on these two questions.

[RandyT]

I'm tempted to get the version that allows you to use the original metal insert since that would be closer to original, but I'm curious what, if anything, distinguishes the other version from the ones being sold on ebay and klov?

Do these need to be blue BTW? White would be more original.

Randy, I'd love to hear your thoughts on these two questions.

No, they don't need to be blue.  I could have made them in white, but blue was already in the machine.  Distinguishing characteristics...they're blue! .  Seriously, it's hard to extol the virtues of such a mundane part.  I have no reason to believe that the ones you mentioned have any issues, so there's not much point in making comparisons.  So long as it works well, holds up and doesn't mess up the gear it's running against, a gear is a gear is gear is a....  But these will be less costly and, as you mentioned, take the unique approach of using the original hub.  And, if folks are already ordering other items, they will be able to add them to the order if they need one.  Making it also gave me a chance to examine the viability of producing similar hard-to-find parts in this manner, and it was a good part to test.

[Xiaou2]

 Wont fail in 20 yrs?  So you are willing to give a 20 yr replacement warranty on them?  Great news.

 10hrs on something that is a substandard part?   I dont know.   I always think to myself... if Im going to do something, I should go big, push the limits, do the best that I can accomplish.  If Im doing something for others, I want them to have the best.  If Im building something like a wheelchair ramp... I build it strong enough to support an elephant.  Id feel embarrassed to cut corners, and put out parts I even suspected were not up to par.

 I also am wondering why someone who does not seem to have arcade interests, is selling arcade products?    What classic games lover doesnt like Star Wars?  And one with both good income, as well as technical know-how... doesnt have or have built a Star Wars controller?

 Seems quite odd to me. 

 Hopefully we will get some venders who have passion for Classics,  who take pride in what they make, dont cut corners, and actually have a clue about what the collectors and classic cab makers actually need, want, and desire.

 

[SavannahLion]

Wont fail in 20 yrs?  So you are willing to give a 20 yr replacement warranty on them?  Great news.

 10hrs on something that is a substandard part?   I dont know.   I always think to myself... if Im going to do something, I should go big, push the limits, do the best that I can accomplish.  If Im doing something for others, I want them to have the best.  If Im building something like a wheelchair ramp... I build it strong enough to support an elephant.  Id feel embarrassed to cut corners, and put out parts I even suspected were not up to par.

 I also am wondering why someone who does not seem to have arcade interests, is selling arcade products?    What classic games lover doesnt like Star Wars?  And one with both good income, as well as technical know-how... doesnt have or have built a Star Wars controller?

 Seems quite odd to me. 

 Hopefully we will get some venders who have passion for Classics,  who take pride in what they make, dont cut corners, and actually have a clue about what the collectors and classic cab makers actually need, want, and desire.

All this over a prototype? A first run?

[TheShanMan]

I'm tempted to get the version that allows you to use the original metal insert since that would be closer to original, but I'm curious what, if anything, distinguishes the other version from the ones being sold on ebay and klov?

Do these need to be blue BTW? White would be more original.

Randy, I'd love to hear your thoughts on these two questions.

No, they don't need to be blue.  I could have made them in white, but blue was already in the machine.  Distinguishing characteristics...they're blue! .  Seriously, it's hard to extol the virtues of such a mundane part.  I have no reason to believe that the ones you mentioned have any issues, so there's not much point in making comparisons.  So long as it works well, holds up and doesn't mess up the gear it's running against, a gear is a gear is gear is a....  But these will be less costly and, as you mentioned, take the unique approach of using the original hub.  And, if folks are already ordering other items, they will be able to add them to the order if they need one.  Making it also gave me a chance to examine the viability of producing similar hard-to-find parts in this manner, and it was a good part to test.

Thanks! I look forward to seeing these go up for sale. I figured there wouldn't be any known substantial difference between these and the others but thought perhaps you were trying to one up the others. That said, the teeth only variant is pretty nice and, assuming you don't mind me requesting white, I'll consider getting one. It's great that you are going down this road. I think there is plenty of room for 3D printed part repro's and they will only get better as the printer technology improves.

I can't remember if you ever post on the klov forums, but when these are ready, you might want to post there, as I think you ought to do for any repro item you make.

I see Xiaou2 is still up to the same old tricks that he was up to around 5 years ago when I was more active on these boards. Some things never change.

[RandyT]

I always think to myself... if Im going to do something, I should go big, push the limits, do the best that I can accomplish.

I've seen your work, Steve.  It may be the best you can accomplish, so I won't be unkind and comment any further.  But If you feel so strongly about it, maybe you should try doing something other than trying to tell others what they should do.

As for my "passions", I started building arcade control panels for my consoles and computers in the late 70's, and have been doing it ever since, pushing the envelope as I go.  If you want to judge my accomplishments based on a simple gear, be my guest.  I always consider the source.

[ark_ader]

Wont fail in 20 yrs?  So you are willing to give a 20 yr replacement warranty on them?  Great news.

 10hrs on something that is a substandard part?   I dont know.   I always think to myself... if Im going to do something, I should go big, push the limits, do the best that I can accomplish.  If Im doing something for others, I want them to have the best.  If Im building something like a wheelchair ramp... I build it strong enough to support an elephant.  Id feel embarrassed to cut corners, and put out parts I even suspected were not up to par.

 I also am wondering why someone who does not seem to have arcade interests, is selling arcade products?    What classic games lover doesnt like Star Wars?  And one with both good income, as well as technical know-how... doesnt have or have built a Star Wars controller?

 Seems quite odd to me. 

 Hopefully we will get some venders who have passion for Classics,  who take pride in what they make, dont cut corners, and actually have a clue about what the collectors and classic cab makers actually need, want, and desire.

All this over a prototype? A first run?

X2 gotta X2.

[RandyT]

Thanks! I look forward to seeing these go up for sale. I figured there wouldn't be any known substantial difference between these and the others but thought perhaps you were trying to one up the others. That said, the teeth only variant is pretty nice and, assuming you don't mind me requesting white, I'll consider getting one. It's great that you are going down this road. I think there is plenty of room for 3D printed part repro's and they will only get better as the printer technology improves.

I can't remember if you ever post on the klov forums, but when these are ready, you might want to post there, as I think you ought to do for any repro item you make.

I'll probably produce these in white when the time comes.  I'm still tweaking the model for aesthetics and getting rid of the "raft", which makes the finish look like it does and creates manual labor.  As SavannahLion noted, these are first run prototypes, and I wanted to make sure they worked well before spending a lot of time cleaning up the model.  I usually let the KLOV folks find me.  I'm not a regular contributor there, so I don't feel right posting when I have something new to offer.

[brandon]

Wont fail in 20 yrs?  So you are willing to give a 20 yr replacement warranty on them?  Great news.

 10hrs on something that is a substandard part?   I dont know.   I always think to myself... if Im going to do something, I should go big, push the limits, do the best that I can accomplish.  If Im doing something for others, I want them to have the best.  If Im building something like a wheelchair ramp... I build it strong enough to support an elephant.  Id feel embarrassed to cut corners, and put out parts I even suspected were not up to par.

 I also am wondering why someone who does not seem to have arcade interests, is selling arcade products?    What classic games lover doesnt like Star Wars?  And one with both good income, as well as technical know-how... doesnt have or have built a Star Wars controller?

 Seems quite odd to me. 

 Hopefully we will get some venders who have passion for Classics,  who take pride in what they make, dont cut corners, and actually have a clue about what the collectors and classic cab makers actually need, want, and desire.

 

Cmon!  seriously?  Get over yourself, man.  You can't have passion in classic arcade games unless you have a boner for Star Wars yokes?  seriously?  That's the most asinine thing I've ever heard.  And you're going to compare a tiny gear that has to handle the "massive" strain of moving a whipper inside of a potentiometer to building a wheel chair ramp? Geeezus..  yeah, Randy is just out to swindle us all 5 bucks at a time with 3d printer gears. lol  If you had any idea how much of an asshat you look like right now.. You obviously have some beef with Randy that goes WAY beyond this or otherwise you're just a pessimist who likes to poo-poo on everything just for the sake of being cynical.

[opt2not]

I have 25-30 games so far this weekend and the gear is performing flawlessly so far.

Hey that's $7.50 made in credits. At close to half of the part cost, if I were an Op I'd say a $20 gear to get a great game working flawlessly is worth it. I'm confident at 60 games played it'll probably feel the same, if not better worked in.

I don't personally own a SW yoke, but I do love the game, I just wouldn't sully my memories with the MAME version. It's got to be on a real vector monitor.
That, and I just couldn't get the timing right to pick a yoke up that goes on the market (which are few and far between).
But I like seeing option like this made available to people in this hobby.

Randy, just 3D print a mold and press the gears to shut X2 up. Heh, I don't know what I'm talking about, I just like reading the X2/Randy continued romance.

[brandon]

I have 25-30 games so far this weekend and the gear is performing flawlessly so far.

Hey that's $7.50 made in credits. At close to half of the part cost, if I were an Op I'd say a $20 gear to get a great game working flawlessly is worth it. I'm confident at 60 games played it'll probably feel the same, if not better worked in.

I don't personally own a SW yoke, but I do love the game, I just wouldn't sully my memories with the MAME version. It's got to be on a real vector monitor.
That, and I just couldn't get the timing right to pick a yoke up that goes on the market (which are few and far between).
But I like seeing option like this made available to people in this hobby.

Randy, just 3D print a mold and press the gears to shut X2 up. Heh, I don't know what I'm talking about, I just like reading the X2/Randy continued romance.

The only way to settle this is for 34k to do a head to head review of RandyT's gear vs the one X2 is manufacturing... 

[34k]

The only way to settle this is for 34k to do a head to head review of RandyT's gear vs the one X2 is manufacturing... 

Sure, I'd be happy to test whatever he sends my way.

I usually let the KLOV folks find me.  I'm not a regular contributor there, so I don't feel right posting when I have something new to offer.

Honestly, I wouldn't hesitate if I were you. Us KLOV'rs can be tools just like some of the contributors over here, but everyone is still looking for workable replacement parts.

I have the other gear installed in my Star Wars but it has been snowy and cold here for the last couple days so I do not have many games with the new gear yet. I am having a couple of friends coming by the arcade tomorrow which looks like a beautiful day and I can promise that Star Wars will get some serious action.

If there are any Denver area people interested in coming by tomorrow, please send me a PM.

Another thought is that this 14 tooth gear is also used in Paperboy. Due to the design of the handle bar controllers giving plays more leverage for... enthusiastic play than the SW yoke, it might be a good high-stress machine to test these in. I do not know of any locals with a Paperboy though.

[Generic Eric]

I feel my inquiry got overlooked for a poor reference to Kayne West and a poorly worded inquiry on cost.  Capitalist have to capitalize and consumers have to consume.

I am interested in how much it would cost to make a gear.  What I would prefer to have answered though is:

How much will a set of replacement gears for an Atari Yoke would cost? I acknowledge that this thread is for the 14 tooth gear. So its probably more practical to ask: "How much will this 14 tooth gear will cost?"

On a side note.  My yoke is dismantled, but I seem to recall physical stops, rubber pieces that should prevent extra stress on the gears.

[34k]

On a side note.  My yoke is dismantled, but I seem to recall physical stops, rubber pieces that should prevent extra stress the gears.

This is true, there are stops. If they rotated forever, you would hit the limit on the pots as well.
My theory is that the shock of hitting the stops could create stress over time.

[Xiaou2]

That is the problem with small lot + slow production time.

 If it takes an hour for a 3d printer to make that gear..  thats something like:

 1) Setup, calibrate, & Program  machine - 15min?  (labor$ + Priming material waste$)
 2) Electricity cost    ?
 3) Material Cost      ?
 4) Take part(s) out, file/de-burr, sand, inspect / test..  (Labor$)
 5) Reject & Remake  or  Box up and ship out.  (Failure expenses$, shipping materials expenses$, labor$)
 6) Paperwork & Website work.  Order tracking.  Taxes, forms, emails, printouts, ...etc.   (Labor$)

 Id guess he couldnt sell them for less than $20 using his current method, and you add shipping to that, and your looking at +$25  for a gear thats of low quality & questionable durability.

 This is why I say, its value is of a $5.00 part,  "to me".   Its not that he can actually sell than for $5.

 If you feel comfortable paying that much, for that level of quality, and for an uncertainly of its longevity...  feel free to ignore the quips, and get them while they are hot off the glorified glue gun.

[lilshawn]

alright, let's contact an injection moulding company and just mould our own.

couldn't cost more than a couple thousand bucks to set up. then each one is peanuts right?

how many you want? 20000? gotta make enough to make it cheap.

/sarcasm

[RandyT]

Google doesn't seem to have a guano translation filter, so I'll just forge ahead.  Here's the new design in white ABS;



These are pretty much straight from the machine.  I had to change the design a bit, in order to accommodate a raft-less print.  So I must concede one point to Steve; I won't be able to offer them for $5 each.  Due to the changes, I will need to charge $6 each.

"Glue-Gun" indeed 

[SammyWI]

Those look pretty nice.  Sorry if I missed this earlier but how will these be secured to the shaft without a collar and set screw (grub screw)?  Also what layer height are you using?

[lilshawn]

it appears these will press onto the original collar. He did some preliminary testing with pressing them on to the original collar and he basically had to break them to get them back off again. Shouldn't be an issue at all with them falling off or anything.

[Slippyblade]

I'd give a toe off my left foot for one of those "glorified glue guns".  My brother-in-law works in a R&D fab and he routinely prints replacement plastic parts for his project car.  SOO jealous.

[Generic Eric]

I'd give a toe off my left foot for one of those "glorified glue guns".  My brother-in-law works in a R&D fab and he routinely prints replacement plastic parts for his project car.  SOO jealous.

Win-Win.  Then you could print a prosthetic toe.

[SammyWI]

it appears these will press onto the original collar. He did some preliminary testing with pressing them on to the original collar and he basically had to break them to get them back off again. Shouldn't be an issue at all with them falling off or anything.

That makes sense.  It's only transmitting position to a pot so torque requirements are low.

[sharpfork]

2 things:
1.  I'm double sad that I couldn't make it to your place with craftymech to check this all out in person 34k.

2. I think Randy summed it up perfectly here:

anyone who thinks I spent 10 hours of what little free time I have on this because I think "I'mma gunna gets rich offa suckerz by selling "junk" gears for $5 each (or two for $8) to the tiny group of folks who need them"" should probably seek some professional assistance.  I did it because there seemed to be some interest in me giving it a go, and cultivating a reliable source. 

[34k]

I'm double sad that I couldn't make it to your place with craftymech to check this all out in person 34k.

Ha! It was a good time, and near perfect weather. We'll do it again soon. Crafty still needs to make some adjustments and give it another round on the monitors.

As far as an update, many games were played on the fully printed version and I would say it feels pretty much identical to the gear only version. I only had one concern with the fully printed one. The set screw was causing some stress on the gear, turning the blue material white. I haven't pulled it yet since I was hoping to get some more games in but then the weather went all snowy on us again. They are talking mid fifties on Wednesday so I'll get a few games in and then pull the gear and do another round of pictures.

Note that when I pulled the half printed one and cleaned all of the lube off, there were no signs of stress anywhere on it.

I know you've done the white ones now, but I actually really like the blue.

[RandyT]

As far as an update, many games were played on the fully printed version and I would say it feels pretty much identical to the gear only version. I only had one concern with the fully printed one. The set screw was causing some stress on the gear, turning the blue material white.

Not surprising.  The screw was probably tightened a bit too much.  It really only needs to be just snug for it to work properly, thanks to the "D" shaft of the pot.

I know you've done the white ones now, but I actually really like the blue.

I did the last test in white, based on a request above.  I'll probably offer them in either color, as I have quite a bit of the blue filament on hand.

[34k]

I will be happy to continue to provide updates in the future, but I have somewhere between 40-50 games on each of Randy's gears. I pulled and photographed them again.

You can see the slight discoloration I was talking about on the fully printed gear. I was very ginger about the set screw only finger tip snugging it down as I did anticipate that it could be a problem without a threaded insert or anything. I don't think it is a problem since I would much more highly recommend the half-printed version anyway. That's the one that I put back in my yoke.

Attached photos are in the same order as before and I added a broken factory one because it was on the bench next to me.
A: Fully 3D printed from a different vendor
B: Randy's fully printed version
C: Randy's half-printed version
D: Repro of the original (from them that shall not be named)
E: Original broken gear

[RandyT]

The fully printed one is definitely getting stress from the set screw.  I wasn't kind to this part when I made it, attempting to thread the screw into it directly, before deciding to use a tap.  Could have introduced some "slop" and made the hole too loose and/or compromised the structure.  Either of these would allow the set screw to act like a lever.

Honestly, the way the fully printed one is done here, was not my preferred approach.  As I mentioned to Chad, I think the better approach would be to make the collar portion to be in  the same "D" shape as the shaft, which would better distribute the forces to the collar, rather than directly onto the section around the set screw.  Unfortunately, I don't have one of the pots here to use as a reference/gauge.  The size of the set screw was probably too large as well, reducing the size of the plastic area, but it's all I had on the shelf.

If I can get one of the pots in here, or determine whether it is an industry standard shape so a substitute could be employed, I'll give the fully printed version another go.  I still think the replacement gear on the original hub is the best approach, but it may not be an option for some.  Thanks for the photo documentation! It's very helpful.

[TheShanMan]

I usually let the KLOV folks find me.  I'm not a regular contributor there, so I don't feel right posting when I have something new to offer.

Honestly, I wouldn't hesitate if I were you. Us KLOV'rs can be tools just like some of the contributors over here, but everyone is still looking for workable replacement parts.

I wouldn't hesitate either. The other guy who started 3D printing some of these gears wasn't a klov'er at first (I think a friend posted for him) but subsequently joined klov to post about his stuff. I don't think anyone had any issues with that. If you limit your posts to reproduction parts and don't bump your threads I think you'll be fine. I don't come to these forums much anymore so if I didn't happen to stumble across this thread I'd have never known probably. In that case, I would've been glad to see you post a product announcement for this over there.

Any ETA on putting these in your web store?