Defender Joystick Options

[westwood68]

Hi All,

Apologies for bringing up what is probably a well tried subject for most by now....but in searching the forums I couldn't find a definitive answer to this one....

Assuming that the originals are unavailable over here in the UK (been searching for over 5 months now) and that the 2-Way Williams Reprostick from http://www.arcadeshop.de/ is no longer available (which is isn't), what options have other people resorted to?

I understand the requirements of a good 2-way action, small footprint to allow the correct placement of the reverse button and that nothing can reproduce the fell of the original but is there anything freely available that can get close enough to be acceptable?

Cheers

[happyfunball]

being in the same position you are, I chose to try out this joystick:

http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=365

you can carve out a corner to put the reverse button in the right spot. the throw is a little tighter than feels right for defender, but I was considering messing with the spring to loosen it up a bit.

edit: however, looking at the pac pro 4 way leaf switch joystick, that might be a better option.

[1500points]

any joystick that you can restrict to 2 way with short action throw is great for defender.
on my multi-Williams I actually have a wico 8way optical. it works adequately but the heavier resistance and farther throw definitely makes you work harder, compared to a real joust/defender/moon patrol style stick.

bang for the buck, you can't really beat the cheap ol zippy short shaft stick. and if you want to get fancy you can order a 30mm balltop for it.

the most important part of defender is good soft/quick/bouncy buttons for fire/thrust and reverse.

[westwood68]

Thanks for the pointers; that's all the info I need really & good point about the buttons...

[DHTech]

Sorry to hijack your thread, but I have a Defender question. I swear when I played defender as a kid there was a version that used the joystick left and right to change direction and trust, am I imagining this!

[1500points]

maybe you are thinking of Atari 2600 Defender?

the Chinese 19-1 board's defender has been recoded so that it works like that, not very efficient for the gliding reverse maneuvers required in defender or tagging mutants at close range.

one more ergonomic detail about defender.  you don't want the joystick to be too tall, on the real thing the movement is more of a palm, with the index finger wrapped around the balltop for quick adjustments.  and if the reverse button gets too far from the stick, it is hard to tag.  playing with a configuration that is out of spec will cause severe tendon soreness if you practice too much.

[RandyT]

being in the same position you are, I chose to try out this joystick:

http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=365

you can carve out a corner to put the reverse button in the right spot. the throw is a little tighter than feels right for defender, but I was considering messing with the spring to loosen it up a bit.

edit: however, looking at the pac pro 4 way leaf switch joystick, that might be a better option.

I'm not sure the Pac-Pro would be better for Defender.  The throw is longer, and the feel is a little tighter than the Leaf-Pro.

If there's interest, I can look at making a 2--way version of the Leaf-Pro.  I intended to do this a while back, but it fell off my radar.  With a 2-way resistrictor, and some switch tweaking, I suspect that this would be a great Defender stick (with the mod for the reverse button.)  A while back, someone (Kowal, I think) suggested that placing a spring in a vice, compressing it to the desired length and heating it with a torch, can be effective in shortening it.  If that works, you should be able to tune it to your desired centering tension.

[1500points]

I haven't ordered your products yet as I was just recently made aware of them, but they look great.

there was a UK supplier of repop Williams 2 way sticks but he since ran out of a source for some leaf parts (or some specific piece) and discontinued selling them.

There IS a huge interest for a good 2 way inexpensive stick for the Williams fans. it would sell great!

it would be really nice if the stick was similar to a Williams stick so you can make the height lower, the balltop 30mm, and the base narrow enough that you could saddle up a normal button to be 1.75 inch center to center on the vertical between stick and reverse button. 

[happyfunball]

I would buy the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of this. however I am only one person. but I'd probably buy two of them if it helps.

I was looking at the pac pro cause the description made it seem like you could tweak it more than the leaf pro. but if its tighter than the leaf pro probably not. that one feels too tight to me already, for defender.

being in the same position you are, I chose to try out this joystick:

http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=365

you can carve out a corner to put the reverse button in the right spot. the throw is a little tighter than feels right for defender, but I was considering messing with the spring to loosen it up a bit.

edit: however, looking at the pac pro 4 way leaf switch joystick, that might be a better option.

I'm not sure the Pac-Pro would be better for Defender.  The throw is longer, and the feel is a little tighter than the Leaf-Pro.

If there's interest, I can look at making a 2--way version of the Leaf-Pro.  I intended to do this a while back, but it fell off my radar.  With a 2-way resistrictor, and some switch tweaking, I suspect that this would be a great Defender stick (with the mod for the reverse button.)  A while back, someone (Kowal, I think) suggested that placing a spring in a vice, compressing it to the desired length and heating it with a torch, can be effective in shortening it.  If that works, you should be able to tune it to your desired centering tension.

[leapinlew]

I've built 2 bartops to play Defender. The first time I used a Super Joystick and the 2nd time I was lucky enough to get a NOS Defender stick. I really like the actual defender stick, but a super joystick carved to allow a close reverse button works well too. I never posted this project, but here it is near the end of it's build. It's about a year old.

[RandyT]

I would buy the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of this. however I am only one person. but I'd probably buy two of them if it helps.

Heh.  I won't hold you to it, but if anyone is interested, the Leaf Pro is now available in a 2-way version.  I think Defender fans will really like the results.

[matsadona]

I second that there is a big interest for a Defender 2-way joystick repro product. I would like to have two for a coctail project of mine.

[1500points]

Thank you!

I posted an ad on the "Williams Defender Players Unite" Facebook page for you.
And I will add a link to it on the control panel building page at the Robotron2084Guidebook

Cheers!

[RandyT]

Much obliged!

[happyfunball]

I hadn't realized these came in a 2 way now, I was planning to just rout out a slot to restrict it (and not connect the left and right leaf switches) but I'm going to order one of these to play with.
I'm just about ready to install my JROK multi Williams board in a cab so this will get used soon.

I would buy the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of this. however I am only one person. but I'd probably buy two of them if it helps.

Heh.  I won't hold you to it, but if anyone is interested, the Leaf Pro is now available in a 2-way version.  I think Defender fans will really like the results.

[RandyT]

I hadn't realized these came in a 2 way now, I was planning to just rout out a slot to restrict it (and not connect the left and right leaf switches) but I'm going to order one of these to play with.
I'm just about ready to install my JROK multi Williams board in a cab so this will get used soon.

Just finished the restrictor design and made some parts for inventory last night, so you're right on time .  For those wondering, the ball top is 33.5mm, only slightly larger than the original, and when installed in 3/4" wood, the top of the ball will sit only 1 3/4" above the panel surface.  Should be pretty darned close to the original.  Installation only requires a round hole, 1" diameter should be plenty.  To get a perfectly accurate placement of the reverse button, cutting off one corner of the base will be necessary.  But it will definitely fit after modification, as I have verified it with the original Defender panel I have here.

[tron84]

Heh.  I won't hold you to it, but if anyone is interested, the Leaf Pro is now available in a 2-way version.  I think Defender fans will really like the results.

Ohhh, thank you Randy for another Groovy product.  very nice!!!!
Besides Defender, this should Rock for Galaxian & Galaga also turned the other way. I have been waiting for a nice 2way joy. Randy delivers again.....
 

[RandyT]

Ohhh, thank you Randy for another Groovy product.  very nice!!!!
Besides Defender, this should Rock for Galaxian & Galaga also turned the other way. I have been waiting for a nice 2way joy. Randy delivers again.....
 

My pleasure.  I can't wait to hear what folks think of it.    Yes, it should be great for those kinds of games.  Playing Galaxian and Galaga, where immediate left and right movement can mean everything, just isn't the same with regular sticks.  The throw with a standard 8 or 4-way is too long, and the reset distance of microswitches can really throw you off.  This should take care of those issue rather nicely .

[1500points]

Question Randy.

How hard is it to find the microswitch buttons with the little tension bar instead of the physical spring, that can be taken apart and tuned up for better action?

the zippyy sticks have a wickedly crappy switch that has a spring and no lower contact point.
the x-arcade stick has switches that say x-gaming and they seem to be very good quality allowing tuning by adjusting the contact points which reduces the trigger pressure and makes it happen a millimeter or two sooner.

Can you direct a person to this type of microswitch? 

[RandyT]

Question Randy.

How hard is it to find the microswitch buttons with the little tension bar instead of the physical spring, that can be taken apart and tuned up for better action?

the zippyy sticks have a wickedly crappy switch that has a spring and no lower contact point.
the x-arcade stick has switches that say x-gaming and they seem to be very good quality allowing tuning by adjusting the contact points which reduces the trigger pressure and makes it happen a millimeter or two sooner.

A couple of things; a coil spring in a microswitch isn't inferior.  It's actually superior to a bent piece of flat metal.  Both serve the same function, but my experience tells me that the coil spring will outlast the other.  The other quibble is that these switches do have a contact point, but it is formed, rather than a plug of metal.  If you examine the interior section of the blade where the point is formed, you'll see that it has been silver plated.  This is really the same as silver plating a point, so the end result isn't much different.  It's just a different manufacturing process.  Silver, being a precious metal, won't be thickly deposited on any low cost switch.

X-gaming switches are usually regarded as being low quality, even though they may have a particular trait you find desirable.  That being said, X-gaming sells switches, so if they are the ones which work well for what you are trying to achieve, you already have your source   But in the context of this thread, being the best options for a Defender Joystick, I would say that no microswitch based stick falls into this category.  The leaf option is vastly superior where tweaking and fast actuation is desired.

Failing that, the Versa-Micro will do what you are looking for, without the need to fiddle with switch components, and can be special ordered with the levers if required. 

[1500points]

Cool.

Your comment about the desired trait is spot on. I didn't mean to imply the spring model was inferior, excuse my minimal experience with such things.

I have wico leaf sticks and very familiar with them but that isn't always realistic.  in the quest to tinker with stuff already in the parts pile.
I did figure out how to get a rolley leaf onto a zippy base today and i'd have to say it feels outstanding compared to my real Defender machine with original stick.

I jotted down the details of the experiment here- http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/defender/technical/zippyyleafconversion/