Need your help: Street Fighter II Pedestal Round 2: Feedback from builder

[kaneda]

So I asked for the buttons to be closer together, the 3-4 player joysticks not to be angled, and to lose the 5th stick.  Here's what I got.

Let me explain a few things and if you still want to do these modifications we will...

1.  The reason that all 4 player control panels built today and as far back as over 20 years ago is because angling the outer players gives the two inner player more shoulder room.  If you make all player's controls straight across it will require a larger than 48"W panel (most likely 54" at least) to fit everything and give all players the same space to play as the angled 48" panels.  We have built 100's of 4 player player angled panels and have not had 1 complaint on the playability and function.

2.  If you want the player 3/4 controls moved up to the extreme top of the panel like in this picture you sent it will cause player 3/4 to have to reach up and over player 1 and 2's controls making play uncomfortable for all players.  The owner of the cabinet "Pierce's Arcade" complained of this after we built this machine with these controls this far up (although he also made this request and later regretted it)


3.  The reason the street fighter's buttons were so close together is because of the space limitation problem Capcom had with the normal 19" monitored or 25" monitored cabinets.  They had to fit 6 buttons in the space normally allotted for 2 buttons on these classic cabinets.   Normal button spacing for us and most arcade machines back in the good ol days were at 1.5" center to center from one button to the next.  This is the most comfortable layout for ADULTS hands to play at and how we and many other cabinet manufacturers today build their machines for Adults.   

4.  The majority of players playing these Street fighter cabinets back in the day were children with smaller hands.  Cramming all 6 buttons next to each other at less than this 1.5" C-C spacing will be uncomfortable for all ADULT players and will feel very cramped.

To rebuild this control panel will take weeks, I have about 30 custom orders going on right now that have a Christmas Deadline.

I just finished your new paint on your new control panel box and we had planned on finishing your machine up by Friday.

This will push this finish time back by about 2-3 weeks by the time I have new artwork mocked up, approved again by you and shipped to us.  Then we will need to rebuild an entire new control panel box (wide enough for 4 straight player controls) and a whole new control panel and rewire everything.


Your choice, just let me know and we'll make it happen.

Thanks much,

[JDFan]

Since they already have the panel build and you are not sure if you actually need the changes ( since you are just now changing your mind on what you wanted due to feedback and critiques from the various forums) I would suggest asking them how much it would cost to get a second CP created in the future with the changes (If you take delivery as is and decide that the changes are needed to make gameplay feel right) - Since recreating the CP at this point is going to also require reprinting the artwork to adjust the layout to match the new positions of the sticks. They may be willing to agree to make a second CP after the holidays for a small fee to cover the materials and artwork printing since they will not be in a rush to finish other projects at that time and you may find that it works fine for you with the current layout and do not need the adjustments made - so wouldn't hurt to see if they would be willing to send the finished machine on Friday (since they say that is when it will be shipped) and let you play it for awhile and decide if you do need the changes and then once you decide exactly what needs changing have them remake a new CP box that fixes those things and ship it to you for a small fee that covers their costs and you can then moves the components over to the new CP.

Figure that may be the best option at this point since you get the machine and can play test it to see if you really need the changes and know you can get it fixed if needed at a price you already know - and they get paid for the machine and can move on to the other projects and not have your machine taking up space while it waits for a new CP to be made when they find the time. Then after playing on the machine for awhile you will be in a better position to know just what changes are needed and can have them remake the CP with those changes incorporated if needed. 

[Nephasth]

[yotsuya]

Yeah, stop worring about it. You wanted feedback, you got feedback, but ultimately, you and your friends are the judge of your product. Take delivery, play it, and see how it feels.

I'm not sure why he thinks you need a new straight panel. You can still angle off the corners, but orient the sticks parallel with the monitor.

Oh, and this line cracks me up; "The majority of players playing these Street fighter cabinets back in the day were children with smaller hands."

Based on what I recall, the majority of players playing those Street Fighter cabinets back in the day were older teens and young adults.

[HaRuMaN]

At a minimum, I'd ask for a new piece of plexi.  Looks like they screwed through the top of the plexi (look at all the dimples in the picture).  Completely unnecessary, and it looks like poo.  The buttons are enough to hold the plexi on.

[BadMouth]

1.  The reason that all 4 player control panels built today and as far back as over 20 years ago is because angling the outer players gives the two inner player more shoulder room.  If you make all player's controls straight across it will require a larger than 48"W panel (most likely 54" at least) to fit everything and give all players the same space to play as the angled 48" panels.  We have built 100's of 4 player player angled panels and have not had 1 complaint on the playability and function.

They don't understand what is meant by angled sticks. 
Tell them you only want the base of the joysticks rotated to be in the same orientation as the P1 and P2.
The player will still stand at the same angle and the buttons will still be at an angle in relation to the joystick.
Send them links of real arcade 4P panels and tell them to take note of the bolt heads on P3 & 4.

To make the changes you requested, they do not need to rebuild anything but the CP top.

[BadMouth]

On 2nd thought, just have yaksplat make you a new top and plexi:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121245.msg1285964.html#msg1285964

[JDFan]

To make the changes you requested, they do not need to rebuild anything but the CP top.

That depends -- it will definitely also require the artwork be reprinted to fix the layout so that the directions match the descriptons on the art - also a new Plexi overlay - and could also need a new box made if they used glue to attach the top panel to the sides (depending on how it is all built and assembled (and seeing all of the screws they installed around the top edge of the CP it doesn't look like they installed any hinges to make it accessible so it is probably screwed and glued !!)

On 2nd thought, just have yaksplat make you a new top and plexi:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121245.msg1285964.html#msg1285964

That's what I would do as well -- just take delivery as is and if you find you need another made have someone that will know what he is doing make a new one for you -- figure there should be no visible holes in the CP for screws (except perhaps the joystick mounts if you like that look) - If you're going to apply artwork and plexi why would you not countersink all of the screws etc. and just leave the CP top without any holes showing as Haruman mentioned the button holes are more than enough to keep the plexi in place no need for 30+ screw heads !!

[yotsuya]

On 2nd thought, just have yaksplat make you a new top and plexi:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121245.msg1285964.html#msg1285964

Yaksplat has kind of disappeared, unfortunately. 

[Dawgz Rule]

Some things to consider:

 - There appears to be a misunderstanding between you and the builder as to what you are seeking for your CP regarding player 3 and 4.  The recommendation is to simply not angle the sticks.  The builder seems to be under the impression that you want a straight across setup.

 - It would be helpful if you posted the picture you sent the builder as it is difficult to understand the comment about reaching over.

 - The builders comments are really a matter of opinion.  They may have had no complaints but then again, the audience they are selling to may be inexperienced.  You don't know what you don't know.

As is the case with the builder, you will find many opinions on this forum.  Just search curved versus straight button layouts and you will get plenty of them.  In the end, you have to be happy with the end result and it is difficult to know if you will be happy without actually using it.  Hey, I play fighters with a mag-stik plus and enjoy every bit of it.  I also have dedicated trackball buttons.  Many don't like that stick at all and most would say dedicated trackball buttons aren't necessary.  BUT, I like my cab and haven't had any complaints when people come over and play.   Did I learn some things?  Absolutely....especially considering I built the cab and then discovered this forum.  By far, the biggest thing would have been to build separate cabs with specific purpose in mind.

I am gearing up to build my second cab and in this build I will apply the lessons learned from the previous one.  It is all part of the experience.

SO, do what is best for you.  The builder seems pretty agreeable to anything you want to do and +1 to the comments made by JDFan and others.

[HaRuMaN]

I could do a new top & plexi if that's the route you want to take.

[Malenko]

1.  Show him a picture of NBA Jam, NHL Open Ice, NFL Blitz, The Simpsons, TMNT, Golden Axe:TRODA, etc

2.   Show him a picture of NBA Jam, NHL Open Ice, NFL Blitz, The Simpsons, TMNT, Golden Axe:TRODA, etc

3.  he'd trying to force his opinion on you, kinda like we are.

4.  ZOMG KIDS PLAYED ARCADE GAMES!??! no waiz. He said ALL ADULTs in caps, so you know he's serious (and also incorrect)

I dont believe he has 30 more suckers customers waiting, hes just trying to guilt you into taking this.
I do feel its too late to really make the changes, and if you request them hes going to rape your bank account even more. Take delivery, try it out, see if it needs changing. This is why its usually better to mock something up and ask for feedback then to spend a ton of money then try to fix it retroactively. I hope the top is hinged and not glued and screwed. For only $700 I'll cut a new top and apply the art work and send it to you.

[pbj]

For someone that's allegedly in marketing, you sure lack confidence.

[Ginsu Victim]

At this point, take it, try it, if you don't like, have HaRuMaN make your new control panel for cheaper than what that guy will charge you (you will have to do the wiring yourself, but that's EASY).

[kaneda]

For someone that's allegedly in marketing, you sure lack confidence.

this was uncalled for...we were having a normal discussion.

I'm going to take delivery of it, see how it works.  If a need a new CP, I'll have someone here help put it together.  Done.

Thanks guys, appreciate the feedback / help.

[yotsuya]

I'm going to take delivery of it, see how it works.  If a need a new CP, I'll have someone here help put it together.  Done.

Thanks guys, appreciate the feedback / help.

I think that's your best route.

[BadMouth]

You'd think the builder would be familiar enough with BYOAC to see at least one of the angled joystick rant threads and know what is meant by it. 

[pbj]

$5 says that builder has already been alerted to these threads and is reading every last post.

[yotsuya]

$5 says that builder has already been alerted to these threads and is reading every last post.

Dream Home Arcades has 30 custom orders on backorder.  You really think Dream Home Arcades would take time out of their obviously busy schedule to read complaints about Dream Home Arcades?

[BadMouth]

In the builder's defense, the button spacing and joystick orientation were based on the OPs original artwork.
I wish I'd posted a more thorough explanation in the OP's original artwork feedback thread, but it was the 2nd one that day and I had already gave the full spiel on a post in someone's project thread earlier.

I can also see where a young person without much time on real machines would think that the joystick orientation was screwed up if it weren't based on the angle the player stands at.

If you're in business, sometimes you have to build what will sell instead of what is best.
Sucks like a 40" screen 2 feet from your face, but it's true.

Either way, someone selling 4p control panels should still know what is meant by angled joysticks on p3 & 4.

[severdhed]

I say get it and try it, it will most likely be awesome. All off my cabinets have buttons spaced at 1.5in centers and they are quite comfortable. My 4 player pedestal panel is 46"x18" and there is plenty of room for 4 adults. The only issue I see is the rotated joysticks, but honestly it isn't that big of a deal. My 4 player cabinet had them all mounted the same way, the one my friend built has them angled, I don't notice a significant difference when playing on either cabinet..you adjust.It isn't like you are trying to pull off Dragon punches and can't because the stick its rotated...most if the 4 player games are beat em ups, they don't require the same kind of precision.

Take it and enjoy it, it looks awesome

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk 2

[BadMouth]

In the builder's defense, the button spacing and joystick orientation were based on the OPs original artwork.
I wish I'd posted a more thorough explanation in the OP's original artwork feedback thread, but it was the 2nd one that day with angled joysticks and I had just finished giving the full spiel on a post in someone's project thread.

I can also see where a young person without much time on real machines would think that the joystick orientation was screwed up if it weren't based on the angle the player stands at.

If you're in business, sometimes you have to build what will sell instead of what is best.
Sucks like a 40" screen 2 feet from your face, but it's true.

Either way, someone selling 4p control panels should still know what is meant by angled joysticks on p3 & 4.

[opt2not]

Classic, I call BS on this.

1.  The reason that all 4 player control panels built today and as far back as over 20 years ago is because angling the outer players gives the two inner player more shoulder room.  If you make all player's controls straight across it will require a larger than 48"W panel (most likely 54" at least) to fit everything and give all players the same space to play as the angled 48" panels.  We have built 100's of 4 player player angled panels and have not had 1 complaint on the playability and function.

No, you don't want it straight across. You want the actual Joystick base to be straight mounted like all the midway style 4-player cabinets. Placement stays the same, joystick orientation is straight like P1 and P2.
No need for a new "wider" panel.

2.  If you want the player 3/4 controls moved up to the extreme top of the panel like in this picture you sent it will cause player 3/4 to have to reach up and over player 1 and 2's controls making play uncomfortable for all players.  The owner of the cabinet "Pierce's Arcade" complained of this after we built this machine with these controls this far up (although he also made this request and later regretted it)

Where is this coming from?  They don't need to move the controls...the joystick base just needs to be re-angled.

3.  The reason the street fighter's buttons were so close together is because of the space limitation problem Capcom had with the normal 19" monitored or 25" monitored cabinets.  They had to fit 6 buttons in the space normally allotted for 2 buttons on these classic cabinets.   Normal button spacing for us and most arcade machines back in the good ol days were at 1.5" center to center from one button to the next.  This is the most comfortable layout for ADULTS hands to play at and how we and many other cabinet manufacturers today build their machines for Adults.   

Bovine-feces. I can see how this would pass by someone who is unfamiliar with arcades, but it ain't gonna fly here.
A majority of Street Fighters were conversion kits, that were installed into Dynamo cabinets. There is also the Big Blue cabinets that I believe were commissioned by Capcom at a limited run. I'm a little foggy of the history, but I do know that their reasoning is false.
There is no space limitation for in the CP for 2-player 6-buttons.
Dynamo Z-back:


Big Blue:


Does that look like they had problems with space??  Look at the button spacing, nice and tight, ergonomically placed.
Believe me, if you play on the current placement for a while, you will definitely develop hand cramps/strain.

4.  The majority of players playing these Street fighter cabinets back in the day were children with smaller hands.  Cramming all 6 buttons next to each other at less than this 1.5" C-C spacing will be uncomfortable for all ADULT players and will feel very cramped.

That's not true at all! A majority of players were children???  WHAT.
First, most arcades I've seen back in the 90's had people of ALL ages. Teenagers to adults mainly.
Second, look at the natural spacing between your fingers when at a rest... does that look like 1.5" wide to you? Maybe if you were Shaquille O'neal...

To rebuild this control panel will take weeks, I have about 30 custom orders going on right now that have a Christmas Deadline.

Weeks? Maybe 1 week, but weeks?? Perhaps it'll take that long to fix the other 30 custom orders altogether...but people here are able to cut a new CP, plexi and apply the art in less than a week, I'm pretty sure of that. Heck, I can do that, and I don't have a proper workspace or the toolset these guys have.

I just finished your new paint on your new control panel box and we had planned on finishing your machine up by Friday.

This will push this finish time back by about 2-3 weeks by the time I have new artwork mocked up, approved again by you and shipped to us.  Then we will need to rebuild an entire new control panel box (wide enough for 4 straight player controls) and a whole new control panel and rewire everything.

It doesn't take long to rotate 2 of the joystick graphics, and squish the button labels closer together.  He thinks this is going to take long because of the "straight" placement of P3 and P4, which isn't what you're asking for.

I mean, with paint drying time, I can see this taking maybe 2 weeks. Re-cutting/drilling/slotting the wood and plexi shouldn't be more than a couple days. Artwork changes -- an hour tops.

Here, I don't know if this will help, but I did a quick photoshop edit of your photo you originally posted. Buttons placed closer together, and P3 and P4 joysticks indicators: angled to match the P1 and P2 sticks.

[yotsuya]

Now THAT is a nice looking panel.