I have 2 options to take: CRT or LCD - which one?

[Richardgregory]

I am at a point were I need to decide how I should redesign the cabinet:  for a CRT or LCD, but I'm undecided.  The existing cabinet is tailored for an LCD, but I was given a 19" CRT VGA monitor recently.  I tried applying the 'fake' scanlines in MAME to simulate a CRT, and it's pretty darn good!  So I'm debating whether stick with the LCD route and not bother with having to redesign the cabinet to facilitate the massive and heavy CRT. 

Anyone have any convincing feedback to sway me one way or another?

[Fursphere]

LED LCD.

CRT = Weight.  Heat.  More Energy. Restrictions (have to run lower resolutions).  When it fails it'll be harder to get fixed / replaced, as they're not made anymore. 

 

[Richardgregory]

Oh, forgot that I"m doing the vertical and horizontal rotation of screen, so I think maybe I answered my own predicament: LCD.

Unless with a 19" CRT I really don't need to rotate in the first place.

I have a 20" 4:3 aspect ratio LCD screen, and I need to see how it'll look like if it's in horizontal mode and a vertical game is displayed on it.

[yotsuya]

I prefer throwing CRTs into my MAME cabs.

[Nephasth]

CRT. Always.

Monitor rotation solution: Two cabs, one vertical, one horizontal.

[Richardgregory]

I like your proposed solution:   

CRT. Always.

Monitor rotation solution: Two cabs, one vertical, one horizontal.

[ABACABB]

Definitely CRT. I had been running an LCD with the HLSL scan lines and told myself it looked good.  I used this setup for about 2 years until I cam across a CRT monitor locally. Had the monitor in my basement a few weeks until I got around to changing the mounts in my cab for the CRT. I could not be happier. It looks way better than the LCD.

I'd say go with the CRT, you won't be disappointed. 

[opt2not]

LED LCD.

CRT = Weight.  Heat.  More Energy. Restrictions (have to run lower resolutions).  When it fails it'll be harder to get fixed / replaced, as they're not made anymore.

CRT's are actually much easier to fix than LCD's.  CRT's can last 5 times longer than an LCD, and with proper upkeep, even longer than that. Replacing components on a CRT chassis is a lot easier than trying to repair a failing LCD. Once an LCD starts going, you just throw it out. A cap-kit or flyback swap can have your CRTs running for multiple decades. You'd be lucky if an LCD lasts 5 years...

For authenticity and longevity, arcade CRT all the way.

[Minwah]

CRT!

[jdbailey1206]

LED LCD.

CRT = Weight.  Heat.  More Energy. Restrictions (have to run lower resolutions).  When it fails it'll be harder to get fixed / replaced, as they're not made anymore.

CRT's are actually much easier to fix than LCD's.  CRT's can last 5 times longer than an LCD, and with proper upkeep, even longer than that. Replacing components on a CRT chassis is a lot easier than trying to repair a failing LCD. Once an LCD starts going, you just throw it out. A cap-kit or flyback swap can have your CRTs running for multiple decades. You'd be lucky if an LCD lasts 5 years...

For authenticity and longevity, arcade CRT all the way.

I agree with opt2not.  I've had only one CRT in my life and it has lasted me since 1998.  So thats 15 years compared to the three LCD's which have been on various other computers that have died for one reason or another. 

[harveybirdman]

I agree with everyone on CRT.  Personally the idea of a rectangular monitor in my cab sickens me. I can only think of a handful of applications of a widescreen monitor in a classic cab shape done by memebers of this forum that I liked.

However in the end its audience is you. There are things like the mini slg you might want to consider. But based on what you are saying about not liking HLSL already you might have made your decision.

[pbj]

LCD running HD upscaling filters on your PC.

Scan lines look terrible and should not be simulated.

 

[Fursphere]

I agree with everyone on CRT.  Personally the idea of a rectangular monitor in my cab sickens me.

You do realize that a 4:3 CRT is a rectangle right? 

[harveybirdman]

I agree with everyone on CRT.  Personally the idea of a rectangular monitor in my cab sickens me.

You do realize that a 4:3 CRT is a rectangle right? 

 

Touche

[RandyT]

You do realize that a 4:3 CRT is a rectangle right? 

So is a square

[paigeoliver]

CRT.

The lcds are too crisp.

As for longevity. The 40 year old monitor in my Pro Tennis has never been serviced and and is only the teeniest bit off (although it takes about a minute to warm up as it is tube based). The 35 year old monitors in my Space Invaders and Clowns games both have great pictures and neither one of those every appear to have seen any service either.

[shponglefan]

Personally, I'd go LCD, but that's because my goals are different than other people's goals.

For you, I would determine your goals of your own arcade machine. If you goal is to simulate the original arcade experience as accurately as possible, then an arcade monitor or failing that, a CRT computer monitor will get you closer to that.

But you will have to deal with the fact they are bigger, heavier, consume more energy, release more heat, and in the long run, more difficult to replace given their obsolescence.

OTOH, if you just want to be able to play some arcade games and are less concerned about the "look" of them with respect to scanlines and what-not, then LCD has a lot of advantages over CRT.  Also, if you are playing non-MAME games (i.e. PC games, etc) then a widescreen LCD will allow you to run widescreen games.

It's all about trade-offs.

[shponglefan]

Once an LCD starts going, you just throw it out.

Uh, what?  LCDs can be repaired too (I've done it).  It depends on what part is failing.

Also, "broken" LCDs (i.e. ones that only require capacitor replacement) can be had for free, repaired for next to nothing, and turned into fully working LCDs.

[DGP]

CRT's will yield the best looking image and are the best over-all solution for old school arcade classics but LCD's have their advantages as well (especially for a multi-cade running more that just the classics), it's all personal preference really.

Then of course there's the issue of what you want/need being obtainable for a reasonable amount (as we recently discussed in another thread). Nice 19" crt's can usually be found within a stones throw while 25" + is an entirely different situation (unless $ is of no concern).

The main variance that will be obvious is black level but you can help an LCD out by tossing some tinted/smoked glass or plexi in front of it.

Jason

[Dawgz Rule]

Why simulate scan lines when you can have the real thing?  Given that you have both, bench test each one and see which one you like the best.

[ark_ader]

CRT all the way!

[Richardgregory]

Thanks all - ok, so I'm leaning towards the CRT - not sure exactly how I'll mount it - it's 48.5lbs!  My existing cabinet is configured for the screen to be angled facing up towards the viewer looking down, not straight on.

[Xiaou2]

CRT over LCD, all day long.   Will outlast LCD 100 to 1, and maintain a higher quality output at Any resolution.  Where as LCDs mostly look good at only their set native resolutions.

 Id also prefer low-res Arcade monitor, if possible, for most classics.  Its just not always easy to get hold of them, and to deal with the many pitfalls of their operations in certain games + setup.

As for monitor angle:

 If its a sit-down cabinet, then you can use a 90 degree angle fine, because the size / perspective variances when sitting, is negligible.


 Almost all standup arcade machines were made with a sloped-back monitor setup.   This allows users of different heights, to see the screen just fine.   It also creates a little space between the player and the monitor... giving you a better overall perspective, rather than an extreme closeup.

 A lot of the 19" monitor classics (such as Galaga / MS Pacman)  were made with a lower angle, where as the larger monitor games were often set at a higher angle.  (Mortal Kombat)   

 This also depended on the kind of cabinet they were.  A Galaga type cab, has you leaning in a bit, and surrounded with black side walls.  This acts as like horse blinders:  Keeping your eyes (and thus mind) from being distracted by anything else. 

 The walls also give the speakers a nice surface to rebound and echo off of... making the games sounds more spatially '3d', clear, and somewhat more 'amplified', as well as helping to keep other games (and peoples) sounds, from drowning your games sounds out.

 We often tend to take the enclosed/partially closed cabinet experience for granted, and do not understand or fully remember what we are missing, ...until we have re-visited a real arcade machine in action.  I can tell you, that the re-experience had soured my ideas for pedestal cabs.  Its a feeling that, once you   "get it"  ... you have a hard time compromising and or reasoning it away.


 Now, there are classics that used a more vertical monitor setup, such as Sinistar's Upright cabinet. The open-sided cabinet design allows it to be more suitable for multiple players,  as well as often giving the Cabinet a little visual appeal.


 ***

 Compromise Smasher:

 
 By using a front face painted, Half-Silvered mirror...  A person could have multiple different display monitors. 

 For example... put an arcade monitor inside the lower cabinet, facing the sky... and put an LCD display 90 degrees to that... directly facing the player.  The mirror sits between them at a 45 degree angle.  Toggling the displays on/off... will allow either to show, while the other is invisible.   

 3D effects:  2 monitors are left on, the monitor image thats in front of the mirror, will appear to float above the image thats behind the mirror.  That can be used to create stereoscopic 3d depth effect, such as seen with games like Asteroids Deluxe.  The front monitor would project the vectors... where as the rear would project the Backdrop artwork.

 True Stereoscopic 3D Display:  Certain games in mame, were made to be seen in 3d, as they used either dual monitors with a half silvered mirror... Or, by use of one monitor + LCD shutter glasses)   Basically, you could replicate the existing dual monitor 3d games, as they output correctly (I believe).  But with the shutter glass games... you would need someone to add a patch to allow for the actual frames to be split between 2 monitors. 

 Sadly, as far as I know... theres currently no way to hook a Sync up to mame to drive a set of LCD shutterglasses.  Theres an abundance older model 3d shutterglasses, and they can be found cheap on ebay.   They work the same as the latest nvidia glasses... but just at a lower refresh rate.  Since mames stereoscopic 3d games do not output at high framerates... that does not even matter.
 
 The oculus rift release might help with getting good stereoscopic 3d in emulators.  Though as Ive said, its way cheaper and easier to use old glasses... IF, a way to sync them could be made.
(Mamehooker + Custom hardware?   Or can the glasses with the mini-audio jack be controlled via direct connection to the soundcards analog / or digital output jacks?)



 Extreme Multi-Displays:  Theoretically, different 5 monitors could be used, with a dual axis (gyro) pivoting mirror setup.  Above/Below/Left/Right/ and behind mirror facing forwards.

 Another amazing Idea that could be added to that... is that the left and right side monitors, could also be mounted to allow them to pivot too.  When desired, rotate them to face forwards with the middle monitor... thus giving you a wide aspect triple screen output, for games like TX-1, BuggyBoy, the special Darious shooter... and the rest.



 Final thoughts / Ideas / Examples: 

1)  Low-Res Arcade + Med-Res Arcade  (play pacman or supersprint)
2)  Arcade + PC    (front end? & modern games on LCD/SVGA, classics on arcade)
3)  Amiga / Older Vintage PC monitor + Vectrex
4)  PC + Console on CRT TV  (PC/Mame games + True console Lightgun capability)
5)  Multi-Player linked-game options, via pivot screens
6)  Arcade Monitor w/ Arcade PCB   +   Mame / Multimedia PC on SVGA / LCD ...
...

[RandyT]

By using a front face painted, Half-Silvered mirror...  A person could have multiple different display monitors. 

Something to keep in mind for anyone considering this type of arrangement is that the image will appear to be well inside the cabinet, rather than at the front.  The perceived distance of the image will be the total length from the front of the cabinet to the monitor face.  E.g. the distance from the front of the cabinet to the center of the fold mirror, added to the distance between the center of the fold mirror and the center of the monitor.  In that vein, to achieve this "layered" effect with two monitors, the total distance between the two monitors must be different, preferably with the first being appreciably closer.  Also to be considered is that the brightness of each image, with a 50/50 optical coating (which is never a full 50/50 due to absorption) will be cut in half, and one would be able to look downward and see the up-facing monitor.

Regardless, I don't know that many would find this type of setup desirable, so I wouldn't let it sway a decision one way or the other.

[Xiaou2]

 Well, I believe its obvious to anyone who has played a mirror cabinet game, such as T2, Asteroids Deluxe, and many of the Gun games.   But yes... the image will be a little deeper in the cab.  A larger the monitor, may help this.. but even so... when I think about Asteroids Deluxe.. or even T2... it never seemed to phase me when playing them.  Once your wrapped up in the game, you dont really notice it.  In fact, it may help to draw you further into the game actually.

 As for brightness of the monitor behind the mirrors,  and even the ones in front... where 100% transmission isnt there... one can always bump up the color / brightness / contrast settings.  (and or use a video amp as well)

 The distance for the 2nd monitor, representing the artwork..   Thats something I didnt consider.   May need to slide that one back a bit to get the correct depth.   Im interested in seeing how it would look.

 As for the looking down part... Umm...  all mirror games allow you to see the image monitor if you angle yourself just right.   But, thats usually not much of an issue, because they are designed so that the monitor is sunk about 4 to 6 inches below the front monitor bezel.    As well as often being slightly angled back...   which keeps you looking forwards at the games action, rather than into the innards of the cabinet.

 And thats speaking about the monitor in front of the cabinet.   The monitor behind the mirror,  is facing forwards, and the internal would be painted black.  Also, with a little sunken 'pit' area to keep side reflections to a minimum.


 That actually made me think of another somewhat crazy idea...  to line the cabinets sides and back with monitors.  In this way, you could simulate for example, and cabinet that used internal artwork that extended to the cabinets internal-sides.  (rather than just the rear)

 Hmmm...  another idea... Imagine a large widescreen LCD... (facing up or down)  that used a split screen display + 2 mirrors.   That would give 2 layers of depth with a single monitor... and still allow use of another monitor for the direct-line of sight plane.. for 3 layers of 3d depth.  Interesting stuff...


 Of course... if you just wanted to use a re-print or original arcade 3d backdrop artwork.. one could also do that too.