Outrun on MAME0151 and mamehooker: a first attempt

[baritonomarchetto]

Hi,

I was toying for the first time with mamehooker. I am planing to place a rumble motor on my wheel to reproduce a shaker effect, similar to that of Outrun.

I am following Howard tutorial for that (a good program is nothing without a good documentation, so thanks for your efforts man).

After verify that my controller was supported (Xbox360 controller) and linked to mamehooker (i had the rumble motors working after the launch test) i switched to the "ping" part of the tutorial (mame outputs detection). With my outrun running in windowed mode, i "simulated" a crash and some offroad drive but i had no ping at all (even if mamehooker reported the game to be launched, so it was seing the game). I must say that i was also waiting for the lamp of the start button to pop up, but nothing.

I made then a try with a game i know is supported: chase HQ. Well, no problems at all with this game, the lamps where immediately detected and the "ping" sound could be heard.

so my question, at this point, is: is Outrun supported or not? Can mamehooker be used for the shacker motor control?

Thanks!! 

[Howard_Casto]

That's because outrun's outputs aren't hooked up.  I have a patch for an old version of mame floating around, but they changed the sega drivers shortly afterwards.  I've never submitted a patch since. 

You might want to look at Cannonball..... it's a 100% faithful port of outrun to the pc made via reverse engineering and supports force feedback.

[baritonomarchetto]

Ah, that's why!

Howard, 1000 dollars question  : do you plan to hook up the new drivers for outrun (and toutrun as a consequence)? I know Cannonball and i LOVE it, but it's a "mess" MAME outrun could not take advantage from your great piece of code!!!

May i hope in a future integration? 

 

[dextercf]

Got my attention on that Cannonball game. Tried google, didnt turn out too great.

[BadMouth]

Got my attention on that Cannonball game. Tried google, didnt turn out too great.

https://github.com/djyt/cannonball/wiki
Read the instructions.  The author made excellent documentation.

[baritonomarchetto]

You might want to look at Cannonball..... it's a 100% faithful port of outrun to the pc made via reverse engineering and supports force feedback.

Unfortunately it doesn't support the Xbox360 pad motor rumble. I have my wheel hacked with one of those and was planning to use the 2V output with a SSR to drive a bigger 24V motor for the rumble effect (effect similar to that of some Taito games like WGP and SCI where a "out-of-the-axis" rotating weight is triggered when the machine crashes or goes offroad...)

[BadMouth]

Check out this post from Howard's original MAMEHooker thread.  There was a guy who posted a video of everything working on his stand-up outrun cab.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,101789.msg1132008.html#msg1132008

It doesn't look like he's active on here, but I'd contact him anyway (on here and through youtube) to see if he can give you a copy of that build.

If you can make the changes and compile it yourself, the outrun driver is attached to the first post of that thread.
From the post with the working machine, you'll have to use MAME v.137


Hacking an xbox pad with rumble might actually pay off for playing new PC games.

[baritonomarchetto]

Looks like my toying with MAME source code for RacerMAME was not 100% time lost: I hooked back up Outrun and ported it to MAME 0.151 

I made nothing of special: compared the driver Howard modified to the "vanilla" segaorun driver in MAME 0.139 and ported the modifications to the newest driver... tested and working with mamehooker 4.0 

With the port toggle option we can say that at the moment this is the best MAME version for our racing cabinets 

Here is a download link to "RacerMame0151".

Howard, feel free to submit the changes to mamedevs, if you think it's worth it: it's a copy of your work in the end  and in my hope there's an injection of motivation for going on with the project 

Attached the new driver, just to keep track of it

[baritonomarchetto]

Made some further test today. The vibration motor output is a very fast toggle/untoggle of the output signal... this surely was ok for a "feedback" sistem like that of Outrun (it was essentially a coil, maybe a couple of coils) but not useful for rumble motors: the impulse to the rumble is too fast and the motor have not the time to complete a rotation (or more).

Not sure if it's possible to hack the output to have a steady "1" when offroad/crash, but this would be the only software solution to solve the problem 

[Xiaou2]

The Standup Outrun controller uses a one-way MOTOR, not a coil... Same as a shaker motor.

 BUT, instead of shaking a weight... it drives a crank arm, similar to a steam engine.  The crank arm is connected to a sliding tray assembly, that the entire steering wheel assembly attached to.  The actual control panel has an slot cutaway  (unseen behind the actual wheel), allowing for the shaft to travel, without any issue. 

 When the motor is pulsed, it will slide the ENTIRE steering wheel side to side, about One Inch total travel.  This is FAR more violent, tactile, and downright AWESOME, than a simple vibration effect.

 Also, as far as I recall... Outrun also does not simply have one setting for the speed of the pulse.  For example, if you run off the road while in low gear going slow... the wheels 'slide action' will be slower, and thus less violent.  Yet a high speed crash, and it will go its fully cranked speed.


 The Sitdown version of Outrun is actually completely different in Force feedback.  The sitdown does not have a shaker wheel.  It uses a motor under the seat, which turns a worm gear, that drives a shaft.  The shaft is driven either forwards or reverse, rather than in one direction.  As the shaft turns, it pushes a pivot bar, which causes the seat assembly to gradually lean the left or right.

 It has a Pot, so that it knows the exact location of the seat / shaft, as well as limit switches.. so that if the pot fails... it can shut off the motor at its fully reached endpoints.. left and right.  It runs a calibration at the beginning of the boot-up, to make sure all is good, before enabling the motion output.

 Outrun also has a flashing start button light, and If memory serves me right.. a working brake light.  (maybe not)

[baritonomarchetto]

Yes, the brake light is there, but i don't remember it to be used in the upright cabinet.

Anyhow, i have never seen a genuine outrun "FF", but a bootleg cabinet with BETA PCB and up to my head there were a couple of coils, not a motor.

Still asking how can we manage to control a rumble motor with a so fast impulse...

[Howard_Casto]

Actually I've tested outrun with gamepads and the digital rumble works just fine.  It worked ok on both a 360 and classic xbox gamepad anyway.  Maybe you are using something different?

Mamehooker will allow you to adjust the speed of things via scripting... it isn't easy, but it does work. 

If you want to submit your new version feel free... just give me a little bit of credit. 

[Xiaou2]

Heres a video of the motor & sliding mechanism.

 However, this version, hacked to a PC wheel.. does not seem to be powered adequately.  Seems too slow in rotation (too low of current), and may also not have enough amperage (raw wrist breaking power).




 Hmm, also, it seems he has hooked it up so that it rotates in either direction.   Highly doubtful that original standup mech does this... as it would probably destroy the motor from all the quick mass changes.  Plus, it wouldnt make sense to use a push-pull assembly with that method.


 The reason why your assembly doesnt work well.. is because Outruns mechanism works completely different.  It only takes a tiny bit of rotational travel for a very large shifting effect.   Where as your massive vibrational motor needs about 12 times the travel to accomplish anywhere near the same equivalent effect.

 If I were you, Id rebuilt a remake of the original outrun's sliding control system.   

Other than that, you could use a geared or leveraged system, with smaller mass.  (and or moving the larger mass(es) along a tighter pivot point.   Meaning, the mass is driven closer to its center, rather than far outside its diameter (which takes much longer generate effect).

 Possibly using a higher speed + higher powered motor.. to get the effect much faster.  (such as a router or tablesaw motor, which has nearly instant full speed + bone breaking/cutting power.. rather than a dremmel high speed rotary tool, which builds up speed more gradually... and can be stopped with finger pressure.)

[SailorSat]

I'd rather try to use the the "deluxe" setting rather than the "upright".

The deluxe mechanics are a little more complicated. It has two stop switches, as well as a POT.
If you turn the wheel left and accelerate it would try to move the seat to the right (or in our case, turn the wheel right) and vice versa.
Also on a crash it would shake the seat left and right.
If I remember correctly it also would "center" the seat after play.

I can prepare a modified mame build for that.
(stop switches need to "activate" if the wheel goes to 98% left or 98% right)

[baritonomarchetto]

Actually I've tested outrun with gamepads and the digital rumble works just fine.  It worked ok on both a 360 and classic xbox gamepad anyway.  Maybe you are using something different?

I had the feeling that it was not rumbling correcly: i will take another look 

Please I think that you should submit the change: it's your work.

I made some testing also with the deluxe version (and the BETA bootleg) but the output was the same fast switching IIRC (i will test this better as soon as i will be home tomorrow).

Sailorsat, it's always good to have new mods 

[Xiaou2]

Personally, I loved the moving cockpit version of Outrun.   However, to say that its assembly is a LITTLE more complex is a bit out of line.

 Building the assembly for a sliding wheel is a cakewalk compared to the motion chair assembly.  Have you seen it?

 It requires a very powerful motor, and a large worm gear.   Worm gears of that size will be expensive, and may need to be custom machined.   Also, you will need a industrial threaded rod that matches that worm gear.  You cant just use a thin bolt style rod, because the forces will strip it.  Also, it will be too fine of a thread, and so will not move the player far & fast enough ... even If the thin threads could hold up (and they wouldnt).

 Such rods are also expensive, especially at the length needed for this application.

 Additionally, you will need some huge industrial bearings, to keep that Rod in check... as well as needing superior build precision.  If a gear is off by a hair, and or if the cabinet has any flex in it... its going to cause the gear & rod to mesh poorly.  That will cause slipping & grinding, and will break teeth and threads... destroying the entire assembly.

 Which also means that the entire frame needs to be build by thick steel framework, thats reinforced well in certain spots, as well as completely being bolted together.

 And the worst part of this all.. is that it will really only work with Outrun.  AND, honestly, as much as I love the cabs leaning..  I really missed the shaking wheel.  The entire cabinet shaking wasnt as good... partly because the cabs motor was just not fast enough for that kind of reaction.  In fact.. just in its driving response, it was a little laggy compared to the on-screen movements of your car.

 There may be better ways to attain the same effect...  but then you get into a lot of the same problems.  The game warrants a specific timing thats matched to the mechanical hardware.  When you alter the hardware.. that timing is ruined...  and thus, you are back to the same issue hes having with a simple vibration motor.

 Which in simplest fix, is just to mod his shakers weight, so that its more center pivoted.   Tighter & faster rotation, with the mass spread out more horizontally wider, rather than vertically deep.  Just extend the shaft with a coupler, and change the mass style, by adding several segments of shorter mass pieces.

[Barry Barcrest]

I think he means use the commands sent to lean the cab in the deluxe to apply opposite force to the steering wheel.

[baritonomarchetto]

Actually I've tested outrun with gamepads and the digital rumble works just fine.  It worked ok on both a 360 and classic xbox gamepad anyway.  Maybe you are using something different?

You are right: rumble works perfectly on xbox controller with this (i had the feeling it was not rumbling, but i could not see it being inside the cab, nor i could feel it being under the CP  )

[Hunk_4TH]

What are you guys using the get rumble working with Outrun? The Mame Hooker or that RacerMame? I use a wireless 360 and PS3 DS3 controller

[baritonomarchetto]

You need both mamehoker and racermame151

[BadMouth]

racermame151

   Thanks for making that available. 

[Hunk_4TH]

You need both mamehoker and racermame151

Thanks, though I never really had luck with getting 360 controller working with this. Under "show supported devices" it doesn't list my 360 controller under force feedback devices.

[Howard_Casto]

If you are talking about mamehooker, it won't show up as a force feedback device, it'll show up as a 360 controller because 360 controllers do NOT support FF!  They support xinput rumble, which is an entirely different protocol that I support.

[Xiaou2]

Technically speaking... any controller that creates a vibration is often thought of as being Force Feedback.  Its logical its description of what it does.  Its a device that creates forces, as feedback to whats happening in game.

 Generally, people do not tend to think & speak about devices by their protocols,  and even many companies may have advertised them as such, before the lawyers piped up.

http://www.amazon.com/ISHOCK-GAMEPAD-IMAC-FORCE-FEEDBACK/dp/B000YL9A1A/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1385136450&sr=1-2&keywords=gamepad+force

 So, when people are using software, trying to get their controllers to be seen for what they Do...  they are expecting it to show up as some sort of force feedback device.  Even if thats not the exacting protocol.

 For such a case, a simple User friendly statement such as:    (Rumble Feedback Support)    would be enough to clear up any confusion.
However, the program should and would have to lump all protocols into a single programs.. else nobody would think to fire up various other programs to detect other protocols.   This is very basic user friendly interfacing, thats used on pretty much everything and anything out there for the masses.   As not everyone is an OCD   hardware / software nerd.

[Howard_Casto]

If someone else wants to build an all inclusive hardware solution that I've put as many man hours into and release it for free they are welcome to label things however they like. 

I segregate these devices purposefully because they don't use the same protocol and require different settings by the user to achieve the same effect.  This is also all spelled out in the readme.txt... all one would have to is actually read the documentation provided. 

[Hunk_4TH]

If you are talking about mamehooker, it won't show up as a force feedback device, it'll show up as a 360 controller because 360 controllers do NOT support FF!  They support xinput rumble, which is an entirely different protocol that I support.

True true, Though my controller doesn't show up at all. So I'm sure I'm doing something wrong.

[baritonomarchetto]

Select the 360 Xinput protocol and launch the test: you will see your motors rumble 

[Hunk_4TH]

Thanks will give it a shot! Do I have to edit anything in the inis in Mamehooker? Or do I just selected "enable hooking"?

[baritonomarchetto]

Dude, follow step by step the first tutorial Howard spent time to write to made things as easy as possible. When you arrive to the " "SysTray/Show Support Devices" part of the tutorial (half page more or less) you read only "Force Fedback Devices" in the printout, right? No problem: go on with the tutorial and test your pad by selecting the Xinput protocol 

I had the same situation with my pad (win XP with default drivers installed), but when you launch the test you wil see that it works even if not listed

[Hunk_4TH]

Thanks man. I've read that ages ago. I'll give it another read. Oh and the test did work as you said

[baritonomarchetto]

Sorry for the up

I have submitted, the day before the release, the output changes to segaorun.c to the devs, but it's not included in MAME0.152. They added some minor changes i sent with it (added some PORT definitions to nemesis.c) but it's still possible that they will consider adding it in the next release, i suppose...

EDIT: the outrun output submission is under validation so it's very likely it will be introduced in the next release of MAME