Modern Motherboards and Windows XP

[rCadeGaming]

I thought that this would be a good place to ask this, as CRT_Emudriver is the reason I'm concerned with XP, and there are a lot of computer experts who hang out in here.

The other day I helped a friend put together a computer around an Intel Core i3-4340 Haswell 3.6GHz dual-core cpu.  We used an ASUS Z87-PLUS motherboard, as a Z87 northbridge is supposedly needed to get the most out of that processor.  We planned to dual-boot XP and 7, as he has some older programs he still uses.  The problem is that ASUS hasn't released any XP drivers for it. 

The last time I built a computer was almost two years ago.  That motherboard (I think it's an ASUS P8Z68, not at home at the moment), has XP drivers available for it.  Some time in between then and now, ASUS seems to have stopped supporting XP.  Browsing around, Gigabyte and MSI no longer support it either.

If you set the SATA controller to IDE mode, Windows installs and runs just fine on this Z87 board.  Apparently its just using some generic drivers, but I'm guessing you're not getting the full performance of the motherboard, and therefore the processor, without the right drivers for the motherboard.  Does that make sense?

When I finally build some dedicated PC's for my cabinets, I was planning to build the fastest Intel rigs I could afford, in order to make them future proof as much as possible and be able to minimize lag as much as possible.  Now I'm wondering how well that will work without XP drivers for the motherboard.

The other problem is that XP doesn't seem to work with USB 3.0 ports.  Is that correct?  I've heard it's a mess trying to get that working, and newer motherboards seem to be phasing out USB 2.0 ports.  This Z87 motherboard only has them available from the pin headers on the board.

Anyone have any ideas on what we'll do in the future?  Is using generic drivers not as a big of a deal as I'm making it out to be?

I've already starting stockpiling CRT_Emudriver compatible graphics cards.  It seems like I'm going to have to start stockpiling motherboards and processors from that can still work with these cards and XP.

[SMMM]

No knowledge I can impart at the moment, but this is an issue I've also run into and I have the same questions.  This hobby is getting tough with how so many aspects ('old' technology) are being phased out so quickly.

[krick]

I'm Googling and the results aren't promising.

From what I read, there are no XP or Vista Intel drivers for the 8 series chipsets.

Currently my cab has a Core2Duo chip, so I guess I should start looking to purchase one of the fastest Core i7 Ivy Bridge chips I can find, along with a compatible motherboard, and squirrel it away for the future.

UPDATE:

After looking at the available chips, the fastest unlocked Core i7 chip (excluding the ludicrously priced "Extreme" chips) is this one...

Intel Core i7-3770K Ivy Bridge 3.5GHz (3.9GHz Turbo) LGA 1155 77W 8M Cache Quad-Core Desktop Processor Intel HD Graphics 4000 BX80637I73770K
$324.99 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116501

I already have an Ivy Bridge-compatible motherboard in my my main system (with an i5 cpu) which is pretty sweet...

ASUS P8Z77-M LGA 1155 Intel Z77 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard
$109.99 - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131832

It even has a PCI slot, so I can continue to use my PCI X-Fi XtremeGamer sound card.

[rCadeGaming]

Krick, are you suggesting that we should stockpile Ivy Bridge CPU's and motherboards while we can?  Unless someone has a better idea, that may be the plan.

How about this:

Intel Core i7-4820K Ivy Bridge-E 3.7GHz (Turbo 3.9GHz) LGA 2011 130W Quad-Core Desktop Processor
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116940

It's not much more (only $5, but cooler is not included).  The LGA 2011 motherboards are more expensive, but ASUS does make some with full XP drivers.

I don't think the price is that important, because the thing to do will be to scoop this stuff when's it's obsolete and cheap, the way most CRT_Emudriver cards are now.  The trick will be catching that window before these components are hard to find.  Any ideas on how to do this?

Anybody else?  How about some of the question I raised in the first post?  How big of a deal is using generic drivers?  Calamity?  Dr. Venom?

[sean_sk]

I thought that this would be a good place to ask this, as CRT_Emudriver is the reason I'm concerned with XP, and there are a lot of computer experts who hang out in here.

The other day I helped a friend put together a computer around an Intel Core i3-4340 Haswell 3.6GHz dual-core cpu.  We used an ASUS Z87-PLUS motherboard, as a Z87 northbridge is supposedly needed to get the most out of that processor.  We planned to dual-boot XP and 7, as he has some older programs he still uses.  The problem is that ASUS hasn't released any XP drivers for it. 

The last time I built a computer was almost two years ago.  That motherboard (I think it's an ASUS P8Z68, not at home at the moment), has XP drivers available for it.  Some time in between then and now, ASUS seems to have stopped supporting XP.  Browsing around, Gigabyte and MSI no longer support it either.

If you set the SATA controller to IDE mode, Windows installs and runs just fine on this Z87 board.  Apparently its just using some generic drivers, but I'm guessing you're not getting the full performance of the motherboard, and therefore the processor, without the right drivers for the motherboard.  Does that make sense?

When I finally build some dedicated PC's for my cabinets, I was planning to build the fastest Intel rigs I could afford, in order to make them future proof as much as possible and be able to minimize lag as much as possible.  Now I'm wondering how well that will work without XP drivers for the motherboard.

The other problem is that XP doesn't seem to work with USB 3.0 ports.  Is that correct?  I've heard it's a mess trying to get that working, and newer motherboards seem to be phasing out USB 2.0 ports.  This Z87 motherboard only has them available from the pin headers on the board.

Anyone have any ideas on what we'll do in the future?  Is using generic drivers not as a big of a deal as I'm making it out to be?

I've already starting stockpiling CRT_Emudriver compatible graphics cards.  It seems like I'm going to have to start stockpiling motherboards and processors from that can still work with these cards and XP.

Hi guys,

Just thought I'd chime in to clear a few things up.

Yes there are Windows XP chipset drivers for Intel 8 series chipsets. You can find them here: https://downloadcenter.intel.com/Detail_Desc.aspx?DwnldID=20775
Download the file called infinst_autol.exe. SATA drivers are usually included in the chipset driver. Your motherboard may also include third party SATA chipsets in which case you can go to their respective websites and obtain the appropriate drivers.

Yes USB 3.0 does work in Windows XP. Drivers WILL need to be installed for this.

If I purchase a motherboard, very rarely would I ever use the drivers from the CD provided or go to the manufacturers website due to the fact the drivers are always usually outdated. You can usually obtain drivers from all of the chipset manufacturers websites.

If your motherboard has Realtek onboard sound or Realtek network adapter chipsets you can get the drivers here: http://www.realtek.com.tw/  Yes they have XP drivers.

Check the specifications of your motherboard manual so you can see what chipsets are used for things like sound, network adapters, SATA Controllers, USB Controllers etc etc and then visit the manufacturers website for drivers.

A good website to visit is www.majorgeeks.com as the community there is very helpful and has alot of those drivers available there to download.

Lastly, I really believe the MAME community needs to move on from XP. I understand it's merits. It was a good OS for the time but it's outdated and we need to move forward. I recently built a cabinet and found XP a complete pain in the ass to setup. It wasn't impossible to setup just a bloody hassle. I found Windows 7 much smoother and easier to setup and in my opinion performs just as well as XP ever did, if not better. Also having installed an SSD drive in my cabinet, Windows 7's native support for TRIM commands makes it a painless setup. XP is not kind to SSD's unless you install third party software and make the appropriate registry changes. Also in regards to Windows 7 beaing a "resource hog", this doesnt really apply anymore to modern hardware, plus if you take the trouble to shell Windows 7 with a front end like Hyperspin, much of the extra "fluff" that starts up with Windows 7 will not start because Explorer is not running, therefore making it much lighter.

These comments are not to encourage a debate or flame war about which OS is better for MAME except to comment that the MAME community should not be hesitant to move forward.  if and when the need arises. XP won't be around forever.

[krick]

Personally, I'd stay away from anything that requires an LGA2011 socket.  LGA 2011 is aimed at the server market.

Currently the boards are stupid expensive.  Over $200 for the cheapest ones, and between $400 and $500 for the best rated ones.

And if something happens in the future and the board fails, you'll pay through the nose for a used replacement because LGA 2011 boards are simply not as common and plentiful as LGA 1155.

Sure, having 10MB of cache instead of 8MB is tempting, but I don't think the performance will really amount to that much in practice.  I'm sure there's a diminishing return when adding more cache.

Supposedly, the raw single-core clock speed has the greatest effect on MAME emulation performance, followed by memory bandwidth, then CPU cache.

Incidentally, my primary PC (not my MAME cab) has an Intel Core i5-2500K Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz (3.7GHz Turbo Boost) in it that easily overclocks to 4.28GHz using my ASUS motherboards "AI Auto Tuning" automatic overclocking feature.  I was also able to manually overclock it to 4.8GHz, but keeping it cool under a full load wasn't possible with the aftermarket cooler I have.  I need something bigger.  I assume that the Core i7 processors will overclock in a similar fashion.

It will probably be a long time before this stuff gets "obsolete and cheap" and often the top chip on a particular platform commands a significant price premium on eBay long after the platform is dead due to tech enthusiasts upgrading their old computers.

Regarding your question about generic drivers.  I don't think using the generic windows drivers for the SATA is really a big problem.  The real problem is a lack of proper (or any) chipset drivers for the motherboard in XP.  That can result in major performance and stability problems, and you might not be able to get your video card or onboard devices like sound and LAN working without them.  After installing XP on your friend's board, how many unidentified devices were present in device manager?

[krick]

Lastly, I really believe the MAME community needs to move on from XP. I understand it's merits. It was a good OS for the time but it's outdated and we need to move forward. I recently built a cabinet and found XP a complete pain in the ass to setup. It wasn't impossible to setup just a bloody hassle. I found Windows 7 much smoother and easier to setup and in my opinion performs just as well as XP ever did, if not better. Also having installed an SSD drive in my cabinet, Windows 7's native support for TRIM commands makes it a painless setup. XP is not kind to SSD's unless you install third party software and make the appropriate registry changes. Also in regards to Windows 7 beaing a "resource hog", this doesnt really apply anymore to modern hardware, plus if you take the trouble to shell Windows 7 with a front end like Hyperspin, much of the extra "fluff" that starts up with Windows 7 will not start because Explorer is not running, therefore making it much lighter.

I hear you.  The only reason I use XP (and only the x64 edition) is because of the amazing results I get when using GroovyMAME + CRT_EmuDriver on a standard res arcade monitor.  If I could use Windows 7 and get equally good results, I'd switch in a second.  Unfortunately, that's not the case currently.

I actually installed Windows 7 first on my arcade cabinet when I did my last hardware upgrade but ran into problems with interlaced resolutions running at the wrong refresh rate and problems switching between interlaced and non-interlaced resolutions that were not solvable.  After fighting with it for a few days, I gave up and installed XP x64 edition.

I don't understand all the people messing with "tinyXP" and "microXP" in an attempt to make the OS smaller and faster.  Just get an SSD and whatever OS you use loads a thousand times faster without having to mess with all that crap.  I do advocate slipstreaming an update pack into XP x64, however. Otherwise, the first time you go into Windows update, you'll have well over 100 updates, as well as multiple updates to the updates to the updates as well as multiple reboots.

Incidentally, I didn't find setting up an SSD that difficult on my XP x64 cabinet.  I had to do some extra work to properly align the partition, and I made sure to only purchase an Intel or Samsung SSD since they have applications that run on XP that allow you to manually run TRIM from time to time.  The Intel app even lets you set it up to run TRIM on a schedule, which is pretty handy.  There's a third-party utility that makes all the SSD-related registry changes for XP so that's not hard once you know about it.

[Sledge]

I hear you.  The only reason I use XP (and only the x64 edition) is because of the amazing results I get when using GroovyMAME + CRT_EmuDriver on a standard res arcade monitor.  If I could use Windows 7 and get equally good results, I'd switch in a second.  Unfortunately, that's not the case currently.

I actually installed Windows 7 first on my arcade cabinet when I did my last hardware upgrade but ran into problems with interlaced resolutions running at the wrong refresh rate and problems switching between interlaced and non-interlaced resolutions that were not solvable.  After fighting with it for a few days, I gave up and installed XP x64 edition.

Not sure about the issue with the wrong refresh rate, switching between interlaced and non-interlaced isn't an issue for me...
there seems to be a couple of 'fixes' for it..

[rCadeGaming]

Yes there are Windows XP chipset drivers for Intel 8 series chipsets. You can find them here: https://downloadcenter.intel.com/Detail_Desc.aspx?DwnldID=20775
Download the file called infinst_autol.exe. SATA drivers are usually included in the chipset driver. Your motherboard may also include third party SATA chipsets in which case you can go to their respective websites and obtain the appropriate drivers.

Yes USB 3.0 does work in Windows XP. Drivers WILL need to be installed for this.

If I purchase a motherboard, very rarely would I ever use the drivers from the CD provided or go to the manufacturers website due to the fact the drivers are always usually outdated. You can usually obtain drivers from all of the chipset manufacturers websites.

If your motherboard has Realtek onboard sound or Realtek network adapter chipsets you can get the drivers here: http://www.realtek.com.tw/  Yes they have XP drivers.

Check the specifications of your motherboard manual so you can see what chipsets are used for things like sound, network adapters, SATA Controllers, USB Controllers etc etc and then visit the manufacturers website for drivers.

A good website to visit is www.majorgeeks.com as the community there is very helpful and has alot of those drivers available there to download.

Sean this is great information.  Thank you.

Lastly, I really believe the MAME community needs to move on from XP.

Yeah, the current situation is that if you want to use a real CRT properly the best option is CRT_Emudriver, and that requires XP.  I think this will be the case until graphics card manufacturers start making graphics cards that work as well as the older ATI cards for custom timing values again.  Right now, we don't know when or even if that will happen.

It will probably be a long time before this stuff gets "obsolete and cheap" and often the top chip on a particular platform commands a significant price premium on eBay long after the platform is dead due to tech enthusiasts upgrading their old computers.

Ah.  That's a problem.  I guess I'll have to go with something more reasonable then.  Although, if Sean's suggestions work out, it'll be a Haswell on an LGA1150 board, or maybe something newer when that comes out.

Regarding your question about generic drivers.  I don't think using the generic windows drivers for the SATA is really a big problem.  The real problem is a lack of proper (or any) chipset drivers for the motherboard in XP.  That can result in major performance and stability problems, and you might not be able to get your video card or onboard devices like sound and LAN working without them.

Makes sense.  I'll be sure not to try anything without proper chipset drivers.

After installing XP on your friend's board, how many unidentified devices were present in device manager?

Several.  Video worked fine though, we used a PCI-e sound card with its own drivers, and we haven't tried any networking yet.  We haven't really had time to fool with it much yet.  The XP boot option is just for occasional use with older programs that don't work with 7.  We focused on getting the 7 install optomized first.  Next time I'm over there, I'll try Sean's instructions and see if I can get everything working correctly with the XP install.

There's a third-party utility that makes all the SSD-related registry changes for XP so that's not hard once you know about it.

Link please?

[Calamity]

Nice thread.

Well, as sean_skroht says, the lack of drivers for XP is not always as real as advertised. You have to dig to find them, that's true. But the situation will only get worse in the immediate future, that's also true.

The good news are we are going to have CRT Emudriver for Windows 7 (Catalyst 13.1). It is going to happen within this year. This is not vaporware, a few users here have been testing the beta version. I spent several weeks around April-May of this year resolving the basic problems. I haven't released it yet because VMMaker is terribly outdated and I wanted to create a new version for the new package in sync with the "new" GroovyMAME crt_range format, but free time is a rare treasure for me these days.

So there's no reason to stock pile XP compatible motherboards or anything like that. By next year most of us will be using Windows 7.

The real bottle neck is actually on the video card side. Nothing newer than the HD 4xxx family works. I've tried everything. No go. Fortunately the second hand market for video cards is quite healthy. So we have fuel for some time until the PCI-e port gets replaced by something else.

Unlocking the newer ATI cards for 15 kHz (HD 5xxx, HD 6xxx, HD 7xxx) would be a great achievement, but it could be just impossible. The only strategy I can think of involves learning how to do live debugging of the drivers (kernel debugging), and maybe just to find it's not possible.

Besides, at some point, video cards will loose their analog outputs.

Windows 7 is still much more complicated to get properly configured for 15 kHz than Windows XP. It's not that it's more complicated actually, it's just that many more things can fail. And if you see many of users getting stuck installing drivers in XP, I don't want to imagine when they have to care about enabling test signing, UAC, etc.

Finally, it's a shame we have to abandon XP, now that things were getting really interesting  At the time I was experimenting with W7, I also got a new beta of the driver for XP, that allows you to create new modes *without restarting*. This makes VMMaker unnecesary! No need to have 100+ resolutions available. Only one for the desktop. You just need to install the driver and run GroovyMAME, change the monitor type and new modes would be created as required, just like we do in Linux.

[rCadeGaming]

So there's no reason to stock pile XP compatible motherboards or anything like that. By next year most of us will be using Windows 7.

Wow.  This is great news.

The real bottle neck is actually on the video card side. Nothing newer than the HD 4xxx family works. I've tried everything. No go. Fortunately the second hand market for video cards is quite healthy. So we have fuel for some time until the PCI-e port gets replaced by something else
...
Besides, at some point, video cards will loose their analog outputs.

Yeah, looks like you've averted the crisis for now.  We can keep moving forward as long PCI-e is still in use. 

I agree that the most likely outcome in the future is that the analog outputs will be phased out before another unlockable card comes out.  Beyond that point there is the possibility that we could use the HDMI output though.  HDMI can be converted to analog RGB laglessly with an HDFury adapter.  It just depends whether we'll be able to get custom timing values working with that setup.

I think we're okay with the currently usable graphics cards for now though, given that MAME will benefit more from updating our processors than our graphics cards.

And now, the obligatory selfish question.  Which do you think is coming first?  Windows 7 support, or text modelines acceptable at launch time?

[Calamity]

And now, the obligatory selfish question.  Which do you think is coming first?  Windows 7 support, or text modelines acceptable at launch time?

User defined modelines are already implemented, testing it now, it is ready for next version, I need to port it to Linux yet, which may take some time. This is the reason why the new version is delaying.

I didn't know you can convert HDMI to analog, but definitely there's is the custom timing problem.

Regarding the video card issue... a nice possibility would be an open source video card. There was a failed attempt that I know of.

The ultimate solution could be a software video card, sounds a bit crazy, but I believe it should be possible in the future to create something totally custom based on a DAC for each RGBHV line. Of course I have no remote idea of how to do it.

[sean_sk]

The good news are we are going to have CRT Emudriver for Windows 7 (Catalyst 13.1). It is going to happen within this year. This is not vaporware, a few users here have been testing the beta version. I spent several weeks around April-May of this year resolving the basic problems. I haven't released it yet because VMMaker is terribly outdated and I wanted to create a new version for the new package in sync with the "new" GroovyMAME crt_range format, but free time is a rare treasure for me these days.

As rCadeGaming has said, this is excellent news. While I don't use the CRT Emudrivers since I use an AVGA (I understand it's not as versatile, but very happy with the results) with Powerstrip, I'm very happy for the guys that do use it as it adds a measure of future proofing to keep this community alive. Big thanks to Calamity for his hard work in his limited spare time!

Since I've not used the CRT Emudriver, how does it's functionality and methodology differ from something like Soft 15K. Having a look at Soft 15K forum, I get the impression it is outdated and no effort has been made to adapt it to Windows 7 (or greater). I could be way off base here, but some clarification would be great.

Could a program like 3D Analyse ( http://www.tommti-systems.de/go.html?http://www.tommti-systems.de/main-Dateien/files.html ) be adapted to emulate functionality required for arcade resolutions on modern graphics cards newer than HD4000 series, and possibly nVidia cards?

[sean_sk]

Oops double post. Please delete if possible.

[krick]

There's a third-party utility that makes all the SSD-related registry changes for XP so that's not hard once you know about it.

Link please?

http://www.elpamsoft.com/?p=ssd-tweaker

I haven't downloaded it in a while, but the free version used to do everything I needed in XP.

[Calamity]

Since I've not used the CRT Emudriver, how does it's functionality and methodology differ from something like Soft 15K. Having a look at Soft 15K forum, I get the impression it is outdated and no effort has been made to adapt it to Windows 7 (or greater). I could be way off base here, but some clarification would be great.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=119768.0

As a fact, Soft-15kHz does work with ATI HD 4xxx on Windows 7.

However, for GroovyMAME we need dynamic modelines, that's only achievable in W7 by hacking the drivers.

Could a program like 3D Analyse ( http://www.tommti-systems.de/go.html?http://www.tommti-systems.de/main-Dateien/files.html ) be adapted to emulate functionality required for arcade resolutions on modern graphics cards newer than HD4000 series, and possibly nVidia cards?

I'm afraid no. Mode setting is performed by the reptilian brain equivalent in the display drivers, which is also responsible for screen detection, etc.

[rCadeGaming]

User defined modelines are already implemented, testing it now, it is ready for next version

Awesome, thank you.  What you're doing is greatly appreciated by a lot of people.

I understand the lack of free time.  This is only about year six of planning my cabinets, haha. 

Since I've not used the CRT Emudriver, how does it's functionality and methodology differ from something like Soft 15K.

Soft15kHz is really not the best option anymore. 

First of all, it's silly to use a real CRT and not use GroovyMAME, and that works hand in hand with CRT_Emudriver.  GM can generate resolutions on the fly to keep everything native res (and native refresh, very important), saving you a lot of work; and it has a lot of other important features for native res even if you don't use the auto-generation. 

Even if not using GM, tweaking your resolutions in Soft15kHz requires editing the text modelines by hand (super tedious), or using Powerstrip.  Powerstrip was not really designed for this application, it's very cumbersome, and does not even fit on the screen in lower resolutions.  CRT_Emudriver includes ArcadeOSD, which was purposely designed for this, is just as powerful if not more so, more flexible, and much easier to use.

Making the change only takes a couple of minutes once you have the right graphics card (which can be dirt cheap).  I started with Soft15kHz, and resisted make the change because I had some GeForce cards on hand (only compatible with Soft15kHz).  When I finally switched over to CRT_Emudriver, I was really kicking myself for not doing it sooner.

http://www.elpamsoft.com/?p=ssd-tweaker

Thanks.

[bulbousbeard]

I realize that GroovyMAME is primarily targeted at CRTs, but really, it pretty much is game over for that stuff. Within the next 10 years, CRTs are going to be dropping like flies, and it's going to be nearly impossible to get one in pristine condition.

GroovyMAME with an older video card and Windows XP works really well for what it is, and like Calamity said, there's a healthy market for used cards because so many business workstations used those video cards.

I'd like to see GroovyMAME focus more on black frame insertion and the doubling (maybe even tripling) of refresh rates for G-Sync monitors. That's really the future. Now that we can get crisp, non-blurry HLSL going, I'm beginning to think it's actually a better solution than CRTs anyway. You just run at a fixed resolution, there are no driver issues, etc. It's just flat out better across the board. On top of everything else, you can run new games on your same cabinet setup, too.

LCD refresh rates are just going to keep going up. In a few years there are going to be 240hz LCDs, and I really think it will be a case of "better than the real thing." I'd personally prefer it if we kept looking forward instead of hopelessly hanging onto CRTs, which are dead.

[rCadeGaming]

You know what?  They don't make '79 Kawasaki's any more either.  I still ride one though.

A quality Trinitron tube can last twenty years, and right now they're extremely plentiful and cheap, if not free.  It's very easy for someone who is passionate about this to stockpile a lifetime supply.  The CRT itself is not a problem.

[cools]

Black frame insertion and higher refresh rates aren't the clincher - we need vastly greater resolution.

I've done some rough estimation and we need 8K to be able to do the simulation properly - each pixel on an arcade CRT has enough detail in it that it'd require ~20 pixels on an LCD in the same screen area to look the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8K_resolution

[Calamity]

Yes, I totally agree the point made by rCadeGaming.

This is not a matter of looking forward. CRTs are cool devices. My view of this hobby involves keeping CRTs alive because they are the "video" part of the classical video-game concept. Video games are an extension of the cathode ray tube technology. IMHO preserving the "game" part is just half of the job. I'm not interested in using LCDs for arcade games, not now nor in the future, regardless how good they eventually become (which is a good thing!). This is not about nostalgia, not hipsterism, it's a conceptual matter. For me this is it, the day that I can't run my games on a CRT I'll focus on previous hobbies like aquariofilia or playing the guitar.

[sean_sk]

You know what?  They don't make '79 Kawasaki's any more either.  I still ride one though.

A quality Trinitron tube can last twenty years, and right now they're extremely plentiful and cheap, if not free.  It's very easy for someone who is passionate about this to stockpile a lifetime supply.  The CRT itself is not a problem.

Yes, I totally agree the point made by rCadeGaming.

This is not a matter of looking forward. CRTs are cool devices. My view of this hobby involves keeping CRTs alive because they are the "video" part of the classical video-game concept. Video games are an extension of the cathode ray tube technology. IMHO preserving the "game" part is just half of the job. I'm not interested in using LCDs for arcade games, not now nor in the future, regardless how good they eventually become (which is a good thing!). This is not about nostalgia, not hipsterism, it's a conceptual matter. For me this is it, the day that I can't run my games on a CRT I'll focus on previous hobbies like aquariofilia or playing the guitar.

I completely agree with these comments.

The original idea behind this thread was the concern over current and future computer hardware support for an older operating system such as Windows XP, which could over the next few years go the way of Windows 95/98. In terms of "moving forward", serious consideration should be given to future platforms upon which we enjoy the emulation of classic arcade games. PC technology progresses at a very rapid pace, and if you find yourself out of the game, even for six months, you can find you've lost touch with current technology. The other important consideration is how long PC hardware lasts. In my experience, PC hardware can fail in only a matter of a few years, prompting hardware upgrades.

Nevertheless, in order to be able to enjoy that classic arcade experience I think it's essential to provide the proper environment for those games. CRT's are one aspect I think we should never move on from, for as long as possible. The good thing about CRT's is that they last, unlike the aforementioned PC hardware! 10 years after your LCD screen has failed your CRT display will probably still be going. They really knew how to build them, even right till the very end when manufacturers ceased making them. But it's also about the look and feel. I see these games running on my CRT cabinet and I think: WOW just WOW, my own arcade cabinet that I always wanted to own since I was a kid! If my cabinet had an LCD screen in it I don't think I would get that nostalgic feeling because they were never in those machines originally, so it wouldn't have that same effect.

I'm a vinyl record collector, purely from an audiophile standpoint. CD sales are declining due to the increase in MP3 sales largely because they're convenient and people are turning towards portable music devices. But the vinyl industry is as strong as ever due to the immense support of enthusiasts and the club scene. While CRT's are no longer made in the quantities they used to be, hopefully the arcade enthusiast community will keep them alive for years to come.

[Dawgz Rule]

quality Trinitron tube can last twenty years, and right now they're extremely plentiful and cheap, if not free.  It's very easy for someone who is passionate about this to stockpile a lifetime supply.  The CRT itself is not a problem.

This is not a matter of looking forward. CRTs are cool devices. My view of this hobby involves keeping CRTs alive because they are the "video" part of the classical video-game concept. Video games are an extension of the cathode ray tube technology. IMHO preserving the "game" part is just half of the job. I'm not interested in using LCDs for arcade games, not now nor in the future, regardless how good they eventually become (which is a good thing!). This is not about nostalgia, not hipsterism, it's a conceptual matter. For me this is it, the day that I can't run my games on a CRT I'll focus on previous hobbies like aquariofilia or playing the guitar.

+1.  I do like the classic look and feel of a CRT and am looking forward to my next build with a Trinitron.  The only difficulty I have is in finding a 24" model as it seems to be the perfect size.  I check pretty regularly on CL and there is definitely no shortage of 20" and 27" models.

[bulbousbeard]

Video games are an extension of the cathode ray tube technology.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/sf4cabinet.jpg

They're pretty obviously not, given that neither home nor arcade games use CRTs anymore. Video games have nothing to do with any specific type of display technology. Sure, many games have been designed to look best when viewed on NTSC screens, with scanlines, and CRT color bleeding, etc., but there is so much diversity even within the world of CRTs that they basically all look different anyway, and there isn't any single "true" appearance for them. The same game on a 2000 Nanao CRT and a 1996 Wells Gardner CRT looks completely different.

There are many ways to do "video," and the essence of video games isn't bound to any of them. Packing up your bags due to a display technology going away seems pretty disingenuous to me.

[rCadeGaming]

Video games are an extension of the cathode ray tube technology.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/sf4cabinet.jpg

They're pretty obviously not, given that neither home nor arcade games use CRTs anymore.

I think he was referring to classic games.  Yes, obviously Street Fighter IV and most other modern games look better on a high resolution flat panel display, but we're not talking about those games.  This forum section is about a MAME build, and 99% of the games in MAME were designed for, and look best on, a CRT.

Video games have nothing to do with any specific type of display technology.

Well of course they do.  As demonstrated above, Street Fighter IV was designed around a high-res flat panel.  Street Fighter II was designed around a 15kHz CRT.

Sure, many games have been designed to look best when viewed on NTSC screens, with scanlines, and CRT color bleeding, etc., but there is so much diversity even within the world of CRTs that they basically all look different anyway, and there isn't any single "true" appearance for them. The same game on a 2000 Nanao CRT and a 1996 Wells Gardner CRT looks completely different.

A Nanao CRT may look very different than a Wells Gardner, but that difference is minuscule in comparison to the difference between a CRT and a modern flat-panel.

We aren't necessarily looking for a "true" picture that looks exactly as it did in the arcades.  After all, arcade cabinets sometimes had crumby, poorly calibrated CRT's.  We're simply looking for the best picture available today.  If we are playing MAME, that means a CRT.

There are many ways to do "video," and the essence of video games isn't bound to any of them. Packing up your bags due to a display technology going away seems pretty disingenuous to me.

Yes, there are many options.  For classic games, the best picture and lowest lag both come from a CRT.  No one is packing up their bags, we're keeping CRT's alive.

LCD refresh rates are just going to keep going up. In a few years there are going to be 240hz LCDs, and I really think it will be a case of "better than the real thing."

This is a long, long, way off.  That kind of technology has come a long way recently, but it's still not even close to "better the real thing."  G-sync is a better solution to the refresh rate issues than a locked refresh rate of 240Hz.  Even if that and input lag are both solved, it's going to take an immense amounting of computing power to emulate a shadow mask or an aperture grille.  That is what it will take to actually look like a CRT.

I'd personally prefer it if we kept looking forward instead of hopelessly hanging onto CRTs, which are dead.

Anyone who understands this thread will understand that CRT's are quite alive.  We are working to preserve something special here.  If you're not interested in that, then you don't have to be part of it, but I don't understand why you've come here trying to convince us to stop.

[opt2not]

Video games are an extension of the cathode ray tube technology.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/sf4cabinet.jpg

They're pretty obviously not, given that neither home nor arcade games use CRTs anymore. Video games have nothing to do with any specific type of display technology. Sure, many games have been designed to look best when viewed on NTSC screens, with scanlines, and CRT color bleeding, etc., but there is so much diversity even within the world of CRTs that they basically all look different anyway, and there isn't any single "true" appearance for them. The same game on a 2000 Nanao CRT and a 1996 Wells Gardner CRT looks completely different.

There are many ways to do "video," and the essence of video games isn't bound to any of them. Packing up your bags due to a display technology going away seems pretty disingenuous to me.

Wow, complete BS in this post.
How the hell do you explain vector games? Nothing to do with a specific display technology? 
Those games were specifically designed for the display technology. 

CRT's still have an advantage, if anything, for the sheer ease of repair. You can keep a CRT running for multiple decades with the proper upkeep. I mean, it's easy for someone to learn how to solder standard components on a CRT chassis, then it is to repair an LCD. Before I started this hobby, I touched a soldering iron probably twice in my life, now I'm repairing dead/faulty CRT's, swapping in new chassis and tubes...etc. I even revived my family's old B&W 14" Zenith TV from the late 70's with a simple cap-kit and a couple diodes swapped out. Works like it did back then...
I mean, CRT technology is 100 years old, but there is a reason for that. They're built to last unlike LCD's which are built to bleed your wallet.

Also, if you think LCD's don't have inconsistencies in the display, you're fooling yourself. You have differences in view-angles, refresh (pixel respawn) rates, colour calibration differences...the list goes on man, and that's not even from one brand to another. I'm an artist who uses a dual monitor setup, and I can tell you that even with the same brand, same model of both my LCD's I still can't match the colour calibration between them. And this is after trying to calibrate it with one of those $300 calibration doo-hickey's...the whites aren't exact, and I can't get the contrast to stay consistent.

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed"

There are many ways to do "video," and the essence of video games isn't bound to any of them. Packing up your bags due to a display technology going away seems pretty disingenuous to me.

The irony in this statement... 

[Calamity]

I'd like to see GroovyMAME focus more on black frame insertion and the doubling (maybe even tripling) of refresh rates for G-Sync monitors.

The new patch I'm working on does include black frame insertion, among other things. This will fit both lightboost LCD screens and 120 Hz CRTs.

I think bulbousbeard made some good points, you can agree him or not and discuss about but I wouldn't go as far as to consider it BS.

[Sledge]

I think bulbousbeard made some good points, you can agree him or not and discuss about but I wouldn't go as far as to consider it BS.

i pretty much disagree with him totally..
what was around first? Games? or CRT's?
i think CRT's right? And why did they start making games? To see what they could actually accomplish with those CRT's...
just because the video tech has moved on from CRT's to newer tech, doesn't mean it wasn't an extension of CRT's.

I DO agree though that Games shouldn't be limited to said old technology, as everything does improve and move on.
HOW and WHAT you play your games on is really up to the individuals preferences. But to say that games isn't an extension of CRT's is total crap.
If it wasn't for CRT's, we wouldn't have electronic games at all.. we'd all be outside playing with our ropes and spinning tops...

[sean_sk]

How the hell do you explain vector games? Nothing to do with a specific display technology? 
Those games were specifically designed for the display technology. 

I find this a very interesting comment. It's true that games like Asteroids are best played on vector monitors but those are not easy to obtain. I have Asteroids on my machine and I think it looks garbage on a traditional raster CRT because of the scanlines. This is probably an area where LCD's are a better choice, as I think vector games look much better on an LCD screen, particularly if you don't want to go through the hassle of trying to locate a suitable vector monitor.

If it wasn't for CRT's, we wouldn't have electronic games at all.. we'd all be outside playing with our ropes and spinning tops...

Exactly! Who wants to go outside and get sunshine, fresh air and exercise. Screw that!

[Sledge]

LCD refresh rates are just going to keep going up. In a few years there are going to be 240hz LCDs, and I really think it will be a case of "better than the real thing."

This is a long, long, way off. 

bam! ?
http://www.eizo.com/global/products/foris/fg2421/index.html#tab01
240Hz LCD ...

[rCadeGaming]

I wasn't saying that 240hz was a long way off.  I was saying that "better than the real thing" is a long way off.  Reread it.

[ed12]

crt's came first
then a little game called  ping pong....>ibm<..did not want it at first
but the eng..made it anway...top brass was invited to play it...
very first 1
was hooked up to a raw video to rf modulator..chan 2/3
hence atari...

ed

[Sledge]

I wasn't saying that 240hz was a long way off.  I was saying that "better than the real thing" is a long way off.  Reread it.

You quoted a post where he was talking refresh rates and 240Hz...
How are we meant to know you aren't talking about the same thing as him

[rCadeGaming]

LCD refresh rates are just going to keep going up. In a few years there are going to be 240hz LCDs, and I really think it will be a case of "better than the real thing."

This is a long, long, way off.  That kind of technology has come a long way recently, but it's still not even close to "better the real thing."  G-sync is a better solution to the refresh rate issues than a locked refresh rate of 240Hz.  Even if that and input lag are both solved, it's going to take an immense amounting of computing power to emulate a shadow mask or an aperture grille.  That is what it will take to actually look like a CRT.

Not talking about the samething?  I thought I was addressing his quote pretty directly.  The quote I selected ends in "I really think it will be a case of 'better than the real thing.'"  I said that's a long way off, and I thought the second sentence clarified that I was referring the "better than the real thing" part.  After that I was saying how it will take a lot more than 240Hz to accomplish "better than the real thing."

Sorry for the confusion.

I think bulbousbeard made some good points, you can agree him or not and discuss about but I wouldn't go as far as to consider it BS.

I wasn't trying to put him down.  Just questioning why he is trying to convince us to give up on CRT's.

[opt2not]

How the hell do you explain vector games? Nothing to do with a specific display technology? 
Those games were specifically designed for the display technology. 

I find this a very interesting comment. It's true that games like Asteroids are best played on vector monitors but those are not easy to obtain. I have Asteroids on my machine and I think it looks garbage on a traditional raster CRT because of the scanlines. This is probably an area where LCD's are a better choice, as I think vector games look much better on an LCD screen, particularly if you don't want to go through the hassle of trying to locate a suitable vector monitor.

I'm inclined to disagree, I think they look the worst on LCD's because of the jaggies and Respawn rates.
Though I think it has something to do with the fact that I remembered how those games looked BITD. I haven't tried the AAE version yet on an LCD, which has some added filters to mimic vector-scan graphics, but I'd go as far as saying its "good enough" looking from the screenshots I've seen.
There was a post here somewhere about AAE Asteriods, I'm sure a search would turn up something.

Though, my quote wasn't about my preference, it's about the validity of the theory that games are agnostic to the display technology, which is a complete farse. Vector-scan displays were the strongest example, given that there were plenty of games that just wouldn't exist because them. In fact, all video games can attribute their existence to the display tech. The first (regarded by many) video game was Tennis For Two, build on a oscilloscope display. 

Look, we have MAME for the preservation of history of the arcades. Preserving that history is highly fuelled by accurate reproduction of the experience. CRTs are the actual experience...
So while CRTs are still around, why not continue to accurately reproduce the experience, while we still can.

[sean_sk]

I'm inclined to disagree, I think they look the worst on LCD's because of the jaggies and Respawn rates.
Though I think it has something to do with the fact that I remembered how those games looked BITD. I haven't tried the AAE version yet on an LCD, which has some added filters to mimic vector-scan graphics, but I'd go as far as saying its "good enough" looking from the screenshots I've seen.
There was a post here somewhere about AAE Asteriods, I'm sure a search would turn up something.

Though, my quote wasn't about my preference, it's about the validity of the theory that games are agnostic to the display technology, which is a complete farse. Vector-scan displays were the strongest example, given that there were plenty of games that just wouldn't exist because them. In fact, all video games can attribute their existence to the display tech. The first (regarded by many) video game was Tennis For Two, build on a oscilloscope display. 

Look, we have MAME for the preservation of history of the arcades. Preserving that history is highly fuelled by accurate reproduction of the experience. CRTs are the actual experience...
So while CRTs are still around, why not continue to accurately reproduce the experience, while we still can.

Yup, I understand the intent of your original reply to bulbousbeard and my comment was simply made because you got me thinking about vector games. For the majority of us, vector displays are simply not an option due to how hard they are to obtain.

While I wholeheartedly agree with you that games should be accurately reproduced on CRT's, playing a vector game on a raster monitor is not. Therefore the the next best thing would to run them on an LCD due to the reasonably fine dot pitch and it's ability to cleanly display anti-aliased vector lines. AAE has come a long way and I would suggest a revisit. Perhaps CRT PC monitors would be an even better option, but because the convenience of LCD's I'd say they would be the overall best option for vector games.

[69mustang]

I just picked up MSI H81M-E33 motherboard with a G3220 Haswell 1150 CPU and installed Windows XP 32bit and 64 bit (found an iso at the usual places to test with). So far it's running great. I used these links for the drivers

Chipset Drivers: https://downloadcenter.intel.com/Detail_Desc.aspx?DwnldID=23061
Intel Management Drivers: https://downloadcenter.intel.com/Detail_Desc.aspx?agr=Y&DwnldID=22092&keyword=intel+management+engine&DownloadType=Drivers&lang=eng
Realtek Ethernet: http://www.realtek.com.tw/downloads/downloadsView.aspx?Langid=1&PNid=13&PFid=5&Level=5&Conn=4&DownTypeID=3&GetDown=false
Realtek HD Audio: http://www.realtek.com.tw/downloads/downloadsView.aspx?Langid=1&PNid=24&PFid=24&Level=4&Conn=3&DownTypeID=3&GetDown=false

I didn't bother looking for drivers for the Intel Smart Connect, since it is unnecessary. All it does is connect to the internet while the PC is asleep and update drivers and programs for you. 

[ID4]

The only technology than can really replace the CRT is the FED Spindt.

It's an CRT but in "flat-panel" form. Like CRT, works with phosphorus, It's a emissive emiting technology, can show interlaced images "as is", and CAN BE MADE to support true multisync (no native resolution!).

This technology was brought by the flat-panel manufacturer AU Optronics from Sony FET.

I suspect that they have "parked" this tech to explore the maximum expected of LCD and OLED, although the latter seems completely unbootable.

[Sledge]

I believe this thread has gotten off track as it's meant to be about new motherboards etc and XP.. or it's replacement...
It's not about video technology and how to progress in that..

[rCadeGaming]

That's ok, I enjoy the discussion.  My original concern was resolved, and then it went in a different direction.

ID4, that's a very interesting technology.  My first impression was that it wouldn't be a replacement for traditional CRT's because while it may not have a native refresh rate, it does have a native resolution because it's made of fixed array tubes creating individual pixels.  The "pixels" aren't created by a scanning electron beam.  BUT, each discrete pixel is created using a red, green, and blue tube, so it's not much different than a shadow mask, which also has a fixed dot pitch.  It's possible that if each pixel group is fine enough, this technology will be someday be able to present an image that is indistinguishable from a real CRT, but this will take some HLSL-style processing.