Sanwa JLF mod products testing/comparison + seimitsu button silencers

[BadMouth]

Originally posted this in my build thread, but it makes more sense to put it out on it's own.

My thoughts on the drop in JLF mod products available since I like tweaking stuff and have tried a wide variety.

Silencing the joystick



The sound of the switches in the JLFs were driving me nuts, so I went with SparkCE optical sensors from godlike controls

Overall, I'm very happy with them although I've spent a lot of time tweaking.  Having to run power to your joysticks is kind of annoying, but it's just one more wire (among many) from the Key-Wiz to the joystick.
The one major problem that I've had with them is the power connector losing its connection.  Not sure if the female connector in the clip is not formed correctly or what.  I'll probably end up soldering the power wire directly to the PCB.
You will definitely want to switch to a stronger spring if doing this mod.  The missing resistance of the switches was much more noticeable that I expected.  The big plus to the SparkCE is adjustability and sound level.  the joystick does still make noise when the actuator bangs against a direction.

Not sure if I would go this route again or go the simpler route of using the "silent" Omron D2RV-G switches which run around $10 each.
When I tried using standard switches with octagon restrictors, something would catch inside the stick.  It would feel like the lip of the actuator was catching on something.  They were fine with the original restrictor.  I haven't tested the Omron switches, so can't comment on how quiet they are, but they are the only other option I'd consider.  I tried "quiet" zippy switches, but they were still pretty clicky.

Video comparison of SparkCE vs original switches below.

Springs



I tried Seimitsu LS-56 springs and 3, 4, 6, & 9lb springs from paradisearcadeshop

The LS-56 springs weren't really much heavier than the original Sanwa ones.  A little bit, but just barely noticeable.

The 9lb springs are crazy heavy.  It reminded me of an old pacman joystick with a dried out centering grommet.
If you want a spring that heavy, you shouldn't be using a JLF to begin with.

The 6lb springs feel about like a Happ comp or IL eurostick; standard 90's fighter and beat 'em up style.
I really liked playing the fighters with these springs (at least for short periods of time), but they ruined my shmup game.
The added force required to change direction slowed me down a bit and my ship go boom.

I have the 3lb ones in there now.  They are probably a little light for those used to American sticks.  I'm also using these with optical switches, which makes them feel lighter than when using them with microswitches.

Focus attack specializes in the fight stick market and sells only the 2lb spring, so I'm guessing that one is considered optimum by the Japanese controls fighter crowd.

With the heavier springs, I've found that the joystick  has a "notchy" feeling where it has a certain amount of play with low resistance when centered, but feels like it needs to get up over a hump before the joystick moves any further.
The solution is to lubricate the crap out of everything in the joystick.

Actuators



I tried .5mm and 1mm oversized actuators from paradisearcadeshop.

I was surprised that they did not reduce the throw of the joystick whatsoever.  This was the main reason I thought they might be useful.
The battery was dead in my angle finder, so I don't have actual measurements, but was able to tighten it down and compare whether the joystick could tilt less than with the stock actuator (it didn't).
On the +1mm model, the diameter of the side that rides the restrictor plate was actually .4mm smaller than the original.
EDIT: See Armi's comments below and the paradisearcadeshop wiki here: http://support.paradisearcadeshop.net/doku.php?id=actuators_explained

When it came to activating switches, they performed as advertised and did activate the switches sooner.
(which makes no difference to my as the sensitivity of my optical switches is adjustable)
I wouldn't recommend the 1mm model.  I tested it with the original JLF switches and it touches all the switches while at rest.  That's fine, but the switches wouldn't always disengage when the joystick returned to center.  IMO, it's just too big.

Circular Restrictors



I compared the GT-C restrictor from godlikecontrols (blue) and GT-O from paradisearcadeshop (clear)
Because the actuator rides the restrictor at an angle, the inside of the restrictors is slightly cone shaped.
I measured both sides to see if one restrictor would have less throw than the other.
Much to my surprise, the small side was the same on both, but the large side was smaller on the GT-O.
So one of these wasn't going to have the proper angle....

The actuator rides the GT-C from godlikecontrols rides correctly.
The side of the actuator stays flat against the inside of the restrictor top to bottom.

With the GT-O from paradisearcadeshop, the actuator only makes contact with the very edge of the large (outside) side.
I would think this would either cause the actuator or the restrictor to wear prematurely.


This was tested on a brand new, unmodified JLF.
The GT-C from godlikecontrols is definitely be my choice here.
Some people have had an issue with a crack developing on the GT-C.
To prevent this, when inserting them into the restrictor plate, only turn to the first notch.
Do not rotate it all the way to the second (last) notch.

I've also used the GT-Y Octagon restrictor.

I liked it as a training tool.  You know whether you're hitting a direction clean or just hitting the general direction then sliding into the proper spot.  I was also surprised how it improved my Qbert play.
Eventually though, I wanted my circular motions to feel like circular motions intead of a ride down a bumpy road, so I moved on to the round ones.  The only place I know of still selling the GT-Y is focusattack.  Paradise offers an octagon restrictor and focusattack resells it, but given the issue with the circular restrictor, I'd rather stick with the GT-Y.

Ball Top, Bat Top


Sanwa Bat-Tops felt undersized to me.  They are ok if you want a bat-top.  Just don't expect it to feel like a Happ or IL.
The top is smaller and the JLF shaft is shorter, so it feels like a mini-Happ.


I love the Hand Candy ball tops from groovygamegear
So much so, that from now on I won't buy a joystick unless it's compatible.  I don't really know what to say.  They are just so smooth that it's noticeable.

Mounting Plate

I'm using the Sanwa JLF-P1-S Mounting Plate, commonly referred to as the "S-plate"

Not sure I'd go this route again, it only nets you about a 1/4".  In my temporary CP top which is 1/2"MDF, the half inch screws used in the two lone mounting points have pulled out.  I plan to drill new mounting holes on the corners and use 4 bolts in the final build.

I actually prefer these adapters that I made for a different build.




Button Silencers

Here I tried the Little Kahuna Seimitsu Silent Button Pad from paradisearcadeshop and the Silencer Sanwa/Seimitsu 30mm Foam Washer from focusattack.



The Little Kahuna sits between the button plunger and insert.  As far as I can tell, it accomplishes nothing (on Seimitsu buttons anyway).
The tabs that hold the button in still bottom out out and still make noise.  I could tell no difference in sound.  In fact, I had two identical buttons out and lost track of which one had it inserted.  Perhaps with a Sanwa button which is made differently, it would have accomplished something.

The Silencer from focusattack has tabs to cushion the impact of the tabs that hold the button in the shell.


These reduced the sound somewhat and changed the feel of the buttons a lot.  Seimitsu buttons don't have much travel to begin with, so adding .8 or .9mm of padding reduces the travel by a noticeable amount.  (1/3-1/2 IMO, but I didn't measure it)
The sound of the buttons isn't as sharp, but it's far from silent.

While testing, I noticed that my ship wasn't firing as often as it should be.  So off to notepad for some testing.
The pad actually reduces the travel to the point that the button feels bottomed out just as the switch is activated.
If the main button I had been using to fire was lightly pressed, the switch wouldn't even activate.  However, the other switches seemed to be fine.  I swapped out silencer pads and the button worked as it should.  Looking at the pad that was removed, one end appeared slightly thicker than it should be. 
So if you're going to order these, order extra in case some aren't within spec.

I'm undecided whether I'm leaving them in or not.  The lack of travel and bottoming out bothers me a little bit due to the reduced tactile feedback.  It's not quite like using virtual buttons on a touchscreen, but it's halfway there.
I think I'll probably end up adjusting and liking them.

Comparison between Silencers from focusattack and stock buttons in video below. (still processing at youtube as this is posted)



EDIT: After playing with the silencer pads installed for a while, I've decide to remove them.  They just change the feel of the button too much for my taste.
Not being able to feel the button bottom out messes with my head and makes me feel uncertain about whether I've applied enough pressure.

[Elaundar]

Have you considered rCade's modified actuator?   http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,120301.0.html
I've been really curious how it performs for others (I'm going to try it myself as part of my 10y redesign, but haven't had a chance yet.)

Also, love the self made mounting plate -- seems like the best way to undermount metal-plate sticks.  Did you drill out the lower level or was there something you could buy locally?

[BadMouth]

Have you considered rCade's modified actuator?   http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,120301.0.html
I've been really curious how it performs for others (I'm going to try it myself as part of my 10y redesign, but haven't had a chance yet.)

Also, love the self made mounting plate -- seems like the best way to undermount metal-plate sticks.  Did you drill out the lower level or was there something you could buy locally?

Once upon a time I bought the extra actuators to do it, but forgot about it somehow along the way.
I kept thinking it involved electrical tape for some reason. 


The bottom parts of the mounting plate are 1/4" aluminum that I cut and drilled myself.
The spacers are 1/2" nylon spacers from lowes.

I also partially drilled out the mounting holes in the original plate so the screws would be countersunk.

[rCadeGaming]

Thanks for the mention Elaunder.  I was reading the first post waiting to jump in, and was pleasantly surprised to see that someone beat me to it.

Anyhow, no electrical tape, nothing like that, haha.  The end result is retains the high quality of the stock JLF.  I've been using it for about a year now.  I originally planned it just for use with shmups, but I've been using it for fighters, platformers, everything.  It's a huge improvement all-around from stock.  Take a look, last link in my sig. 

What's your reason for using Seimitsu buttons?  Just wondering?

I was wondering how those silencers would work with Sanwa buttons, but it sounds like a mess.  I think I'll stay away.

I've also thought of trying the optical joystick switches, but I don't know if I'd like the lack of feedback.

[armi0024]

Badmouth, nice work on the reviews, but I think a few things were missed.

Our actuators come in few different flavors.  We have actuators where the part of the actuator that contacts the gate is larger so that it compensates for the increase on the diameter of the actuator, and we have ones that it is smaller to allow for longer throw.  There is a good explanation of why and how you would use these different actuators here:
http://support.paradisearcadeshop.net/doku.php?id=actuators_explained

Different micros have different travel distances to activation. So the 1mm is not as good on stock, but works great on the silent micros from Omron.  Remember there is a big difference between throw and engage distance.  Throw is not affected by increasing the base of the actuator contacting the micros (the +.5 or +1) but engage distance is.  Many of the hard core fighters want to shorten engage and stay off the gate.

In regards to the silencer pads, it looks like you have KN's there which the Little Kahuna's are not designed for.  The Big Kahuna's are made specifically for the KN series.
http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/home/1016-big-kahuna-seimitsu-silent-button-pad.html
The advantage of the Kahuna's is that they will not interfere with micro switch actuation. For more traditional pads we do have a silent pad that goes in the bottom of the button like the FA ones, however, we had these tested by about 30 reviewers who unanimously selected a material thinner than the traditional Sanwa pad  the FA pads are modeled after.

In regards to springs... most people prefer the 1.5-2.5 lb on JLF's but this is a very personal preference.
This is honestly what happened with FA carrying 2lb springs, they are our springs:
The reason that Focus Attack has 2lb springs is because when their supplier contacted us to buy springs specifically to counteract the increased weight of aluminum bat tops.  The optimal spring for this by our customers testing was a 2lb spring.  Even though we will sell our custom products to other vendors, FA had their Japanese supplier purchase these springs from us.  We shipped them to Japan, and then the Japanese supplier shipped them back to FA.

We also carry the original Sanwa GTY restrictor plates:
http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/sanwa-parts/110-sanwa-gt-y-octagonal-restrictor-plate.html
As well as our own version.  Unlike the GT-C's we haven't had any issues with the restrictor breaking.  I also understand the concern about premature wear but we tested these extensively.   I have had a set of these running in a local arcade on a candy cabinet and the parts have held up fine with no issues.  The mold was slightly modified to allow for better release and more even material flow, which may be why we haven't had any issues with them breaking.

Finallly, in regards to optical, Project Magenta is almost finished, I would recommend waiting to see the outcome of that before picking up an optical mod.

There a a lot of custom items on our site and some our made for the outer fringes of people modding sticks.   I am always happy to help people with understanding what parts might work well.  Our store tries to offer variety to allow people to try different things while some of the other store offering modded products just offer the items we found most successful.  It makes good business sense, but its not as much fun if you only have one flavor of ice cream

[BadMouth]

Badmouth, nice work on the reviews, but I think a few things were missed.

Thanks for weighing in.  I didn't know you had a wiki!

If you find the time, it would be nice if the description of the silencer pads mentioned what buttons they are meant for.
The current descriptions sound like either of them will work on any button that uses the keyboard type switches.

Have you tested the anodized actuators with optical switches?
I wanted to try them out, but was afraid that the shiny surface would cause issues.

Thanks for the mention Elaunder.  I was reading the first post waiting to jump in, and was pleasantly surprised to see that someone beat me to it.

Anyhow, no electrical tape, nothing like that, haha.  The end result is retains the high quality of the stock JLF.  I've been using it for about a year now.  I originally planned it just for use with shmups, but I've been using it for fighters, platformers, everything.  It's a huge improvement all-around from stock.  Take a look, last link in my sig. 

What's your reason for using Seimitsu buttons?  Just wondering?

I was wondering how those silencers would work with Sanwa buttons, but it sounds like a mess.  I think I'll stay away.

I've also thought of trying the optical joystick switches, but I don't know if I'd like the lack of feedback.

I have an extra JLF body and actuators, so no reason not to try it when I get time.
I was playing shmups last night and kept thinking "damn this thing has a lot of throw".

Not sure why I went with the Seimitsu buttons.  IIRC, I read a bunch of comparisons online and decided they were the better choice.
That was a while back though and Sanwa has come out with newer models since then.

The optical joysticks don't really feel like they are missing any feedback to me.
They felt really weird at first because they were crazy loose with the stock spring.
After adding a stiffer spring, it's really not that different than a standard joystick, just no clicking. 

[armi0024]

Here is an SRK post, I did mispeak, 20 person trials not thirty.
Our traditional pads have a few different options but where tested by 20 people against the Sanwa pads and all but one rated them better. That one, said they were equivalent.
Our Thick pads came about when some people (5 of the 20) said they liked thicker pads the best, our thins second, and the Sanwa pads third. However, the other 15 people did not like the thicks better than Sanwa and many disliked them.
The Kahuna's are made of the same material with a different fuction, however they allow LED lighting and can actually be used in conjunction with other silent pads. With the method of silencing they use, this can be done without causing problems with switch activation. I know it sounds crazy but it's true.
The Little Kahunas are for pretty much any Japanese style button except the KN's (Sanwa or Seimitsu), while the Big Kahuna's cover the KN's
The microswitches on these are similar to keyboard but not quite the same.  There is a company, Gamefinger that produces MX switch buttons that are amazing also.

I really like reviews and I think they are helpful on a number of things, but on some of these less expensive items, silencers, springs, actuators, it's all about personal feel.  IMHO I think it's worth $10-15 to try them out.  buy a spring or two, a few different silent pads, and an actuator.   I know that some people will say, of course we say try them, we make money on that. But,we really don't make much money on these little mods.  Take the silencers, at 0.25 a piece, cost of material, cost of our laser cutter etc.... we have to sell a ton of these to cover any significant expense.  A lot of these mods are born out of people saying, "Hey can you do this?" Now that we have our own laser the answer a lot of the times is... Yes, let's give it a shot.

I may have a different approach but if I'm going to spend hours of my life assembling a machine, and then many more hours hopefully playing it.  I'm willing to spend an extra 20-50 dollars in trying some things out to see what I like the best.  We have some customers who drool over the 9lb springs, I don't like them, I have people who insist the LS56 is the best stick every...ok they won me over on this one, with the new 4 way plate, this stick feels better than any other one I have tried for playing 4 way classics.  My point is that what works for one person may or may not work for another. 

I am always happy to hear some ideas and talk about our customs.  Thanks again for checking them out!