I need some suggestions for building a controller

[2MBshit1]

I'm a pretty hefty rhythm gamer, been playing for little over a decade. Here's the kind of stuff I'm talking about so we can be on the same page Or w/e other plays on my channel.

I've been mostly playing on a keyboard, other than the occasional IIDX controller. But my current keyboard's starting to be a little beat-up, switching the caps around since I keep breaking em. So I was looking for a new keyboard and of course left and right people keep suggesting mechanical keyboards. I'm sorry but mechanical keyboards aren't for me. Not only do I need to tap my notes within a +/- 6ms timegate, long notes also needs to be correctly released within a +/- 6ms. When the key's activation point is midway, it results in a less trust worthy accuracy compared to keys that activate when bottomed-out. Topres also activate midway. Gel-domes and membranes just makes me wanna cry. The only half-decent key type for my needs are scissor switches. But no scissor switch keyboards supports so many simultaneous key presses and the few that does has a very bad build quality...

Great I just crossed off every single keyboard on the market,

So now I'm thinking of making myself an arcade controller, but I just couldn't seem to find the info I need. So here I am \o/

Here's a couple questions I have:

I'm assuming there's virtually no input lag when using this through usb on a computer?

With the less expensive boards on the market, is there a limit to how many buttons you can use? How about a limit to how of them you can press simultaneously? I'm looking to possibly hook up 16 buttons, to play 14k+2. And possibly the ability to press them all simultaneously.

Here's the stuff I'm looking for for a "good" button:
It activates when bottomed-out.
Not too stiff to prevent it from draining my physical stamina quickly in fast sequences, yet stiff enough to bounce back as fast as I can "vibrate" my hand. (for jack hammers).
Small enough to be able to spread them across all my fingers without having to uncomfortably stretch out my fingers, I guess around the size of a keyboard key, maybe a bit bigger. (with the exception of 2 bigger ones, for the thumbs).
Oh and they have to be able to take quite the beating, high-tier rhythm gaming is extremely rough on keys.
If possible, I'd rather they don't click. It's distracting, I perform worst when I hear myself smashing the keyboard so I have to play with loud music. Clicking sounds would be worst imo :/

Seems lots of high-tier Lunatic-Rave 2 and IIDX players are fond of these "sanwa switches", but this really isn't my area of expertise so I really don't know xD

Thanks for taking the time to read through this selfish request! Any help or info would be greatly appreciated.

[2MBshit1]

Isn't there anyone, familiar with arcade buttons type/brand, out there willing to help me out a bit? :/

[jimmer]

convex or concave?

I'm not convinced that switches that contact at the bottom are the best option, but you could modify leaf switches not to move after contact.
If you cut 2 sides off the mountng flange you could space tham at 28mm pitch. The buttons are 22mm.

You press 16 buttons at the same time?

[BadMouth]

The big restriction would be the small size you are requesting.
There are smaller versions of the Japanese buttons (Sanwa, Seimitsu), but they use keyboard switches inside, so I don't see what you would be gaining.

People swear by leaf switches for games like Track n Field which require you to alternate in rhythm, but that also involved a kinda bouncing action.
They can be bent to activate at whatever point you want and the switch itself is virtually silent.  You might add some type of padding to the area where the plunger bottoms out to reduce the noise from that.  It would also reduce the amount of travel if that were a desired trait.
See the true-leaf option here: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=73&products_id=398

You may also want to check out these adjustable switches: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=71&products_id=328

You are asking for something so specific that it requires you to understand how the buttons work and modify them to your purpose.
You'll have to buy some stuff and experiment.

As far as the encoders go, cheap keyboard encoders do have input limits, but it varies by manufacturer.  The one used in X-Arcade control panels is limited to 6 simultaneous presses if the USB input is used.  There is no limit if the PS2 keyboard connector is used.  To my knowledge, encoders which show up as gamepads do not have this limit, but I've never used them.  I'd avoid generic "cheapest you can get" encoders in general.  I prefer keyboard encoders that connect via PS2.

[2MBshit1]

convex or concave?

I don't think it really matters in my case. I've grown used to play on slightly concave keys due to my time playing on a keyboard, yet rhythm arcade games such as IIDX or pop'n'music have convex keys. I'll just end up getting used to what ever buttons fit the other criterias the best.

I'm not convinced that switches that contact at the bottom are the best option, but you could modify leaf switches not to move after contact.
If you cut 2 sides off the mountng flange you could space tham at 28mm pitch. The buttons are 22mm.

I agree that from a mechanical perspective it's not the best solution. But from my own gameplay perspective, even 1ms at times can end up being crucial. Sure it's not possible to perceive that timespan. But when score is relevant to the precision you hit and release notes, a single ms is enough to ruin a good play as harsh as that may sound. With that in mind, a simple "the key activates when it touch the bottom and deactivates when it no longer touches the bottom" is much more intuitive and precise time-wise (on a ms scale) compared to "the key is activated when it reaches this threshold and is not longer activated when it leaves that threshold".

 An example to put that into perspective would be the patterns that consists of long notes that fill the entire playing field. At some point you have to hold all the keys down, and keep track of when to release, and when to repress individual keys. You're not memorizing these maps, so most of your attention should be focused on this. You'd be wasting mental energy if you concentrate on keeping the keys pressed right bellow the threshold for a quick and accurate release over all the other already overwhelming stuff you gotta be aware of. So naturally the easiest thing to do is to press them all down all the way, and concentrate on what's more important: actually doing the releases and represses. But the problem with this is when a release comes, it's not as simple as "when the key in no longer bottomed out, it's no longer activated". Instead, it'll only deactivate when you exit the threshold, meaning you gotta start releasing early. Not the most ideal solution when you're trying to keep the most accurate and constant rhythm possible.

I apologize if my explanations sounds a little arrogant, but as you can see I'm extremely passionate and competitive in this field  But basically, it's not a big deal to the average player, it's just a question of keeping things as simple and accurate "to the millisecond" as possible.

And wow, modifying the keys so they don't exceed the threshold was not something I though of, clever 

You press 16 buttons at the same time?

No I've never pressed 16 keys at once. But with this game genre being driven by the community, meaning the community keeps making harder maps as the the community itself gets better at such games, you never know when they'll start spitting out maps with such non-sense. So I guess the ability to press 16 keys at once is more a fail-safe so I don't have to modify/replace my controller if said time ever comes down the road.

The big restriction would be the small size you are requesting.
There are smaller versions of the Japanese buttons (Sanwa, Seimitsu), but they use keyboard switches inside, so I don't see what you would be gaining.

People swear by leaf switches for games like Track n Field which require you to alternate in rhythm, but that also involved a kinda bouncing action.
They can be bent to activate at whatever point you want and the switch itself is virtually silent.  You might add some type of padding to the area where the plunger bottoms out to reduce the noise from that.  It would also reduce the amount of travel if that were a desired trait.
See the true-leaf option here: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=73&products_id=398

You may also want to check out these adjustable switches: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=71&products_id=328

You are asking for something so specific that it requires you to understand how the buttons work and modify them to your purpose.
You'll have to buy some stuff and experiment.

Yeah trial and error seemed like what I would have to resort to since I'm kinda of mixing and matching elements from two different worlds. May I ask what's so special about these leafs switches over, what seems to be the alternative, microswitches? Also you suggested the adjustable microswitch, yet not the adjustable leaf switch, was that intentional with a reason?

As far as the encoders go, cheap keyboard encoders do have input limits, but it varies by manufacturer.  The one used in X-Arcade control panels is limited to 6 simultaneous presses if the USB input is used.  There is no limit if the PS2 keyboard connector is used.  To my knowledge, encoders which show up as gamepads do not have this limit, but I've never used them.  I'd avoid generic "cheapest you can get" encoders in general.  I prefer keyboard encoders that connect via PS2.

aah I see. The whole "recognize as gamepad to overcome kro over usb" gimmick that's sometime's seen in mechanical keyboards only results in unnecessary input lag. It's a roundabout way of doing things, since you can't truly bypass limitations imposed by the usb drivers itself. That said, ps/2 is the most viable solution. Did not know arcade controllers uses similar boards as keyboards haha.

-----------

Seems I'm starting to get a better grasp of the stuff that's involved here. So assuming I'm understanding this correctly, my options are limited to blocking most the activation threshold areas of switches that normally activate halfway? No possible alternatives even if they might seem a little obscure or less recommended? Thanks again for the help ^^

[2MBshit1]

-editing accident, delete please haha

[BadMouth]

May I ask what's so special about these leafs switches over, what seems to be the alternative, microswitches? Also you suggested the adjustable microswitch, yet not the adjustable leaf switch, was that intentional with a reason?

In a leaf switch, your direct action pushes the two contacts together.

In a microswitch, your action sets off a chain of events that leads to a somewhat flat spring flipping it's position.
(think of it as similar to those slap on bracelets from the 90's)
There is the buidup of pressure until the spring reaches the tipping point, then the spring has a distance to travel...and may travel farther than it really needs to, etc.


If I wanted to build a set of custom switches to match your description,
I'd start with Sanwa or Seimitsu 24mm buttons for their size. (www.focusattack.com or www.paradisearcadeshop.com)
But we don't want the keyboard microswitches that are in them, so remove them and discard.
Fabricate new plungers from plastic rod (ebay) and glue to the button inserts or directly to the plunger body.
They would be small enough to pass through the opening where the microswitch was.
Have the length of the plunger and depth of the control panel so that the plunger contacts a leaf switch attached to the bottom of the box.
This way, it only makes contact when bottomed out and it doesn't travel any after being bottomed out.

Alternatively you could just try to mount gold contacts to the plunger itself and have them strike a metal plate that would ground them.
I have no idea where to source gold contacts.

Whatever you build, please post pics. 

[jimmer]

I agree that from a mechanical perspective it's not the best solution. But from my own gameplay perspective, even 1ms at times can end up being crucial. Sure it's not possible to perceive that timespan. But when score is relevant to the precision you hit and release notes, a single ms is enough to ruin a good play as harsh as that may sound. With that in mind, a simple "the key activates when it touch the bottom and deactivates when it no longer touches the bottom" is much more intuitive and precise time-wise (on a ms scale) compared to "the key is activated when it reaches this threshold and is not longer activated when it leaves that threshold".

 An example to put that into perspective would be the patterns that consists of long notes that fill the entire playing field. At some point you have to hold all the keys down, and keep track of when to release, and when to repress individual keys. You're not memorizing these maps, so most of your attention should be focused on this. You'd be wasting mental energy if you concentrate on keeping the keys pressed right bellow the threshold for a quick and accurate release over all the other already overwhelming stuff you gotta be aware of. So naturally the easiest thing to do is to press them all down all the way, and concentrate on what's more important: actually doing the releases and represses. But the problem with this is when a release comes, it's not as simple as "when the key in no longer bottomed out, it's no longer activated". Instead, it'll only deactivate when you exit the threshold, meaning you gotta start releasing early. Not the most ideal solution when you're trying to keep the most accurate and constant rhythm possible.

I know what you are saying, but I'm suggesting you adapt to the response of the complete systeml. Even a bottomed out switch has a response time due to flexibility in your body, and probably response time between brain and muscle twitch.

Your argument is more valid when you don't have foresight of the input required (ie pure reflex ) but that's not the case for your long note that needs to be released at a known point.